Wisconsin has to be the luckiest team on the planet.

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What do you expect? What did you expect this year that you haven't seen? We have a top 10 RPI and are rated in the AP Top 20. We have already talked about the last two years when you somehow expected Tubby to do something about Al Nolen and Trevor Mbakwe getting injured. We were 16-4 and 5-3 in the Big Ten when Nolen got hurt and 8-0 when Mbakwe got hurt. You never told us your line in the sand.
 

ethomasp31 said:
What do you expect? What did you expect this year that you haven't seen? We have a top 10 RPI and are rated in the AP Top 20. We have already talked about the last two years when you somehow expected Tubby to do something about Al Nolen and Trevor Mbakwe getting injured. We were 16-4 and 5-3 in the Big Ten when Nolen got hurt and 8-0 when Mbakwe got hurt. You never told us your line in the sand.
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I said fired for first round loss, possibly with second round loss. You made excuses for 2 of 5 years, Nolen was nowhere near the best player so that excuse rings hollow (esp considering we were only 5-3).
 

We were 16-4 when he got hurt and lost 10 of the last 11 games after that.
 

And had beaten North Carolina earlier that year....that team was probably better than this years team.
 



I really dont have a problem with tubby. But i really do not think he is the coach for a program that aspires to move to the next level. Im not sure why thats even in dispute.
Bucky badger is clearly at a different level then Minnesota - for whatever reason. I happen to think it starts with Ryan.
 

Another example of Wisconsin luck vs. Minnesota luck: Wisconsin would have pulled out that game tonight, without a doubt. Some prayer shot would have gone in. Minnesota, on the other hand, got zero home cooking once again, and had a team that was simply horrible just a week ago shoot the ball out of their minds. Disgusting.
 

goldengophers said:
So he's safe with a sub .500 record and no tourney wins until facilities are dealt with? Forgive me for expecting more.
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The only thing I see with having better facilities is his ability to recruit better players (which he needs to do) but it will not make current players better or make him a better coach.
Also - totally agree with your post.
 

cncmin said:
Another example of Wisconsin luck vs. Minnesota luck: Wisconsin would have pulled out that game tonight, without a doubt. Some prayer shot would have gone in. Minnesota, on the other hand, got zero home cooking once again, and had a team that was simply horrible just a week ago shoot the ball out of their minds. Disgusting.
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Yes Minnesota loss because of dumb luck. Not because Austin Hollins fouls a 3pt shooter, not because a 6th year senior makes a horrible play and for home cooking how about only 2 fouls called against until the Gophers had to foul in the 2nd half.

Another poster unwilling or unable to face the truth. Minnesota is just a average to slighlty below average team in a real good conference.
 



scools12 said:
Yes Minnesota loss because of dumb luck. Not because Austin Hollins fouls a 3pt shooter, not because a 6th year senior makes a horrible play and for home cooking how about only 2 fouls called against until the Gophers had to foul in the 2nd half.

Another poster unwilling or unable to face the truth. Minnesota is just a average to slighlty below average team in a real good conference.
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So Illinois had a bunch of fouls called against them? Just because the Gophers didn't doesn't mean there was home cooking. The gophers took many more shots inside. Did they go to the line significantly more often? More often at all? It was an evenly called game...that means NO HOME COOKING.
 

cncmin said:
So Illinois had a bunch of fouls called against them? Just because the Gophers didn't doesn't mean there was home cooking. The gophers took many more shots inside. Did they go to the line significantly more often? More often at all? It was an evenly called game...that means NO HOME COOKING.
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When you ask for "HOME COOKING" that tells you everything you need to know.
 


cncmin said:
Maybe, but see there's a big difference between Wisconsin "bad luck" and Minnesota "bad luck". Wisconsin "bad luck" sees a below-average point guard go down BEFORE the season with injury, allowing the team to be prepared to insert a talented young backup into the mix, mature that player through a blow-off non-conference schedule, and end up having a player who is just as good as the player he replaced by conference season. Minnesota "bad luck" sees the team's best all-around senior (Nolen) and glue of the team go down just into conference play, while the very talented player due to assume all of his minutes decides to quit the team at the same time, leaving no capable backup to play the position.

There is a HUGE difference.
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e

Maybe. I don't think anyone thinks Jackson is "just as good" as Gasser, by a long shot. He is potentially better than Gasser in a year or two, but lacks experience. He is, however, better than expected (huge exhale) and improving, which is something you see in almost all players Bo coaches.

Don't know the details on your backup leaving. What was the story there?
 



TAW said:
e

Maybe. I don't think anyone thinks Jackson is "just as good" as Gasser, by a long shot. He is potentially better than Gasser in a year or two, but lacks experience. He is, however, better than expected (huge exhale) and improving, which is something you see in almost all players Bo coaches.

Don't know the details on your backup leaving. What was the story there?
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Devoe Joseph, who was a very good guard and played point at the end of the year before - and quite well at that - when Nolen was suspended for academic reasons. Devoe got in Tubby's doghouse before the season began, for whatever reason (rumor is weed). He was arguably one of the team's top 2 or 3 players, but was coming off of the bench for much of the season to that point, and nearly simultaneous with his outright quitting the team Nolen got injured. The Gophers lost their 2 point guards in about a week's time, and lost 10 of 11 thereafter (or something like that) - were 16-4 previous.
 

TAW said:
e

Maybe. I don't think anyone thinks Jackson is "just as good" as Gasser, by a long shot. He is potentially better than Gasser in a year or two, but lacks experience. He is, however, better than expected (huge exhale) and improving, which is something you see in almost all players Bo coaches.

Don't know the details on your backup leaving. What was the story there?
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I decided to look it up. Here are the ORtg's for all 4 players. According to these numbers, Wisconsin lost the best player of the 4 and replaced him with the worst of the 4. It certainly doesn't support the narrative that they lost a 'below-average point guard' and replaced him with a player who was 'just as good as the player he replaced.' They didn't, however, lose two at once. Who knows what would happen if Jackson got hurt.

Al Nolen
07 - 98.0
08 - 101.6
09 - 109.8

Devoe Joseph
08 - 88.1
09 - 102.6

Josh Gasser
10 - 124.9
11 - 118.4

Traevon Jackson
11 - 84.9
12 - 87.7
 

This thread is stupid. Wisconsin is as lucky as Minnesota is unlucky. The Gopher spiral has nothing to do with luck and the Badgers winning has nothing to do with luck (save for the half court heave that went in yesterday; but they did go on to win the OT period).
 

goldengophers said:
I said fired for first round loss, possibly with second round loss. You made excuses for 2 of 5 years, Nolen was nowhere near the best player so that excuse rings hollow (esp considering we were only 5-3).
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I don't think it's correct to say he was no where near our best player. I would agree that Mbakwe was a better player, but Nolen was a senior and our starting point guard, and an absolutely vital part of that team.

TAW said:
e

Maybe. I don't think anyone thinks Jackson is "just as good" as Gasser, by a long shot. He is potentially better than Gasser in a year or two, but lacks experience. He is, however, better than expected (huge exhale) and improving, which is something you see in almost all players Bo coaches.

Don't know the details on your backup leaving. What was the story there?
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cncmin told it fairly well, but if I were to equate it to this year's Badger team, it would go like this. At the end of last season, Gasser is going to be taking the lion's share of minutes at point guard, and you have Jackson and Marshall backing him up. Marshall transfers in April, and you scramble to replace him in May with an unrated recruit who only has offers from a couple of mid-majors. Jackson is suspended to start the next season, and Gasser is playing about 35 minutes a game for the first 6 non-conference games, but you still manage to get some big wins, let's say you beat Creighton and Marquette. Jackson's first game back from his suspension is Gasser's first game out with a foot injury. The crappy team you play, we'll say Virginia (very fitting as we suffered a bad home loss to Virginia that season just as you did this season), shoots about 77% from three and beats you. In one of your last two non-conference games, Kaminsky tears his PCL and is out for the rest of the season and the entirety of next season, and does not get a medical hardship waiver. Gasser comes back from his foot injury and he Jackson play together for two or three games before Jackson gets himself suspended again. Jackson then transfers in mid-January, and Gasser re-injures his foot and is out for the rest of the season. From then on, you're left playing Evans? Berggren? Dekker? for 30+ minutes a game at point. Also you end up giving your walk-on(s) significant minutes in games that are far from decided because you only have 8 scholarship players for the last 10 or so games of the Big Ten season.

We lost a freshman big man in December who looked promising at the time. Devoe Joseph was the main reason for our Big Ten tournament run in 2010, and he ran the point admirably while Nolen was academically ineligible. Justin Cobbs was a sophomore point guard who transferred about a month after the 2009-10 season ended. None of the three guys that we had at the end of 2009-10 could play for the last 10 or 11 games of the 2010-11 Big Ten season.
 

ethomasp31 said:
We were 16-4 when he got hurt and lost 10 of the last 11 games after that.
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That is Tubby's fault for not having enough talent to stop a team from free-falling after losing one player. Nothing but excuses is what we get.
 

tikited said:
That is Tubby's fault for not having enough talent to stop a team from free-falling after losing one player. Nothing but excuses is what we get.
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I didn't know Al Nolen and Devoe Joseph (and to a lesser extent, Mo Walker) were one player.
 

tjgopher said:
And, when we won it 1972 under Muss, it was the first time in 53 YEARS we had won one. So, that means, we have won 3 BIG TEN TITLES since 1920 (93 years), and all three come from coaching staffs that left with some varying degree of baggage.
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Two possible conclusions, then:

1. That's the best we can do and is all we should aspire to.
2. Our best days are ahead of us.

#1 is the boat anchor of any institution or undertaking. It reqires no imagination or effort. To many, it's safe and comfortable, like an old mediocre blankey.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Two possible conclusions, then:

1. That's the best we can do and is all we should aspire to.
2. Our best days are ahead of us.

#1 is the boat anchor of any institution or undertaking. It reqires no imagination or effort. To many, it's safe and comfortable, like an old mediocre blankey.
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Amen, this is exactly why those who excuse mediocrity are the ultimate negatives.
 

Cayman said:
I didn't know Al Nolen and Devoe Joseph (and to a lesser extent, Mo Walker) were one player.
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Wasn't he talking about last year? If not...my bad. If true, my point stands. One guy shouldn't cause such a fall.
 

Having a point guard is key. Even though Dre Hollins is a really good player, we might have one of the worst point guards in the big ten. Jackson as a freshmen has made some clutch shots, and he takes care of the ball. And like other posters have said, each player knows his role and if they don't play within that role, they sit on the bench.
 

nokomismod said:
Having a point guard is key. Even though Dre Hollins is a really good player, we might have one of the worst point guards in the big ten. Jackson as a freshmen has made some clutch shots, and he takes care of the ball. And like other posters have said, each player knows his role and if they don't play within that role, they sit on the bench.
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Any point guard needs a true shooting guard as an option to pass to. Our starting lineup's biggest deficit is the lack of a shooting guard. Coleman is essentially an undersized 3 who can't shoot as well as you want a 3 to shoot. (Austin is really our 3, with all the attributes a true 3 has.) Hollins would start to look like a much better point guard if, when he found Coleman on the perimeter, the guy could make teams pay.
 

goldengophers said:
Amen, this is exactly why those who excuse mediocrity are the ultimate negatives.
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My problem is some people think that if you don't think Tubby is absolutely awful and everything is his fault, then you just accept mediocrity. It is possible to not think everything is Tubby's fault and still not be happy with the way things are going.

And before anyone calls me a Tubby apologist, I've said several times now that if we don't make the tournament, he should be fired.
 

tikited said:
Wasn't he talking about last year? If not...my bad. If true, my point stands. One guy shouldn't cause such a fall.
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He was talking about 2010-11. Losing Mbakwe was in combination with losing Colton Iverson to transfer over the offseason. Ralph was our only form of senior leadership on the court last year, and he never really seemed like a take-charge kind of guy who could rally the troops and gut out wins like Mbakwe could. Last year, between the end of the 2010-11 season and the end of the regular season in 2011-12, we lost two senior big men (and that's not including losing Ralph and Oto in the post-season, and Mo being out for the entirety of the season). During the same period the year before, we lost 3 point guards, two of them upperclassmen.

Before the end of this year's non-conference schedule, we had played a little more than 3 full seasons without playing a single game with a full roster. Before this past December, our last game when all the players on the roster would have been able to see the floor was against Texas in the 2009 NCAA tournament.
 

nokomismod said:
Having a point guard is key. Even though Dre Hollins is a really good player, we might have one of the worst point guards in the big ten. Jackson as a freshmen has made some clutch shots, and he takes care of the ball. And like other posters have said, each player knows his role and if they don't play within that role, they sit on the bench.
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Does the offensive structure and lack of movement have something to do with how Dre plays the point? I am wondering -what comes first- the chicken or the egg? Dre looked pretty good when they were playing loose early in the year and also at the end of last year.
 

Mods...Please delete this post. It has been beatup to the point of being mundane, overkill speculation. Our good friend bga1 has turned it into athletic politics. We've enough of that on the
OT board.
 

tikited said:
Wasn't he talking about last year? If not...my bad. If true, my point stands. One guy shouldn't cause such a fall.
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Who is "he"? The answer is most likely NO.
 


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