Wisconsin has to be the luckiest team on the planet.

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ethomasp31 said:
After 7 years Clem Haskins had one winning Big Ten season (11-7) and had a Big Ten record of 48-78. Through 5 seasons Tubby's record is 38-52. There were a lot of people back then who thought Clem was a crappy coach as well. In 13 Big Ten Seasons Clem had two seasons where we won more than 10 games. The point is Tubby's record matches up pretty favorably to Clem's his first 7 seasons, and actually first 10 he was here. Had Al Nolen not gotten hurt two years ago and Mbakwe hadn't gotten hurt last year, it would be that much better. That's not taking into consideration the whole Royce White situation which really wasn't Tubby's fault at all. The worst part of the Gopher basketball situation right now is the pathetic fans who want to fire a coach on a team with a top 10 RPI, has played the 3rd most difficult SOS and is currently ranked in the AP Top 20. And you can call me a Rube if you want, but those are the facts.
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Careful.......Can't you hear that drumbeat in the distance?
 

ethomasp31 said:
After 7 years Clem Haskins had one winning Big Ten season (11-7) and had a Big Ten record of 48-78. Through 5 seasons Tubby's record is 38-52. There were a lot of people back then who thought Clem was a crappy coach as well. In 13 Big Ten Seasons Clem had two seasons where we won more than 10 games. The point is Tubby's record matches up pretty favorably to Clem's his first 7 seasons, and actually first 10 he was here. Had Al Nolen not gotten hurt two years ago and Mbakwe hadn't gotten hurt last year, it would be that much better. That's not taking into consideration the whole Royce White situation which really wasn't Tubby's fault at all. The worst part of the Gopher basketball situation right now is the pathetic fans who want to fire a coach on a team with a top 10 RPI, has played the 3rd most difficult SOS and is currently ranked in the AP Top 20. And you can call me a Rube if you want, but those are the facts.
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A pile of excuses, Tubby's conference record is inexcusable. We hired the most accomplished coach Minnesota has ever hired with a contract that matched those expectations. He obviously has till the end of the year but a loss in the first round of the tourney should result in his immediate firing.
 

ethomasp31 said:
After 7 years Clem Haskins had one winning Big Ten season (11-7) and had a Big Ten record of 48-78. Through 5 seasons Tubby's record is 38-52. There were a lot of people back then who thought Clem was a crappy coach as well. In 13 Big Ten Seasons Clem had two seasons where we won more than 10 games. The point is Tubby's record matches up pretty favorably to Clem's his first 7 seasons, and actually first 10 he was here. Had Al Nolen not gotten hurt two years ago and Mbakwe hadn't gotten hurt last year, it would be that much better. That's not taking into consideration the whole Royce White situation which really wasn't Tubby's fault at all. The worst part of the Gopher basketball situation right now is the pathetic fans who want to fire a coach on a team with a top 10 RPI, has played the 3rd most difficult SOS and is currently ranked in the AP Top 20. And you can call me a Rube if you want, but those are the facts.
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Oddly you are omitting two MASSIVE items from your portrayal of Clem's first seven seasons here - he made it to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8. To omit that for whatever reason puts little impact on the rest of your comparison.

If Tubby had taken his first two NCAA Tourney teams to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 we wouldn't be having 95% of the conversations on Tubby that we're having. Instead they laid eggs against Texas and Xavier - the latter being excruciatingly painful game as we showed no emotion or fight.

Go Gophers!!
 

goldengophers said:
A pile of excuses, Tubby's conference record is inexcusable. We hired the most accomplished coach Minnesota has ever hired with a contract that matched those expectations. He obviously has till the end of the year but a loss in the first round of the tourney should result in his immediate firing.
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And if they loose in the second round?
 

We were an 11 seed in 1989 and beat Kansas St., and then because Siena upset the number 3 seed we got to play them in the second round before getting blown out in the Sweet 16 by Duke. The Gophers were 9-9 in the Big Ten that year and got lucky to have things break perfectly for them. The next year, as a 6 seed, they won in OT against UTEP and again because of a 14 seed beating a 3 seed got to play UNI in the second round. Again, things broke perfectly for the Gophers to get them to the second week of the tournament. Clem had 5 winning Big Ten seasons in 13 years at the U and only two of them were more than 10 wins in the Big Ten. If Tubby would have had any of the luck that Clem had the last two years, we would have made the Sweet 16 in each of those years as well. Instead he got *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#ty breaks. You're welcome for the history lesson.
 


BTen said:
Careful.......Can't you hear that drumbeat in the distance?
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Clem and Monson were each handed two of the worst situations in the history of college basketball. The initial roster that Clem got after the scandal was one of the worst of all times. Newbern had to sit out and Burton was not real good as a Frosh. There was nothing else. Most of Clems negative record was from those first two years when he went 6 -30 in the BT. With Monson he lost 6 or so schollys and no one coudl have recruited to the mess he started with. Tubby inherited a losing squad but some decent players and Monson had long since cleared up the scandal issues so he had an otherwise clean slate.
 

bga1 said:
Clem and Monson were each handed two of the worst situations in the history of college basketball. The initial roster that Clem got after the scandal was one of the worst of all times. Newbern had to sit out and Burton was not real good as a Frosh. There was nothing else. Most of Clems negative record was from those first two years when he went 6 -30 in the BT. With Monson he lost 6 or so schollys and no one coudl have recruited to the mess he started with. Tubby inherited a losing squad but some decent players and Monson had long since cleared up the scandal issues so he had an otherwise clean slate.
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Why is it okay to make excuses for other coaches on this board but none for Tubby?
 

Oh one last thing....as far as I can tell, despite what half of the bitchers on this messageboard seem to claim, this season isn't over yet. Who knows how far the Gophers are going to get this year. Get off the bandwagon I don't care....just don't try to come back later. The Gophers in 89-90 lost to Wisconsin who won only 4 Big Ten games, which is a worse loss than losing to NW this year. We have 6 loses this year,,,,at Indiana, Wisconsin, MSU and NW, at home to Michigan and against Duke on neutral court. The only team that wasn't in the preseason top 25 was NW.

One last thing. I went to plenty of basketball games at Williams Arena back in the late 80's and 90's, and there were plenty of people back then who were saying the same things about Clem and those Gopher teams as this years Gopher team. I guess it's part of the negative attitude that comes from living in Minnesota for some of you people.
 

bga1 said:
Clem and Monson were each handed two of the worst situations in the history of college basketball. The initial roster that Clem got after the scandal was one of the worst of all times. Newbern had to sit out and Burton was not real good as a Frosh. There was nothing else. Most of Clems negative record was from those first two years when he went 6 -30 in the BT. With Monson he lost 6 or so schollys and no one coudl have recruited to the mess he started with. Tubby inherited a losing squad but some decent players and Monson had long since cleared up the scandal issues so he had an otherwise clean slate.
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Wow.....Defending Monson. Good one. Thanks, I needed a good laugh.
 



BleedGopher said:
Oddly you are omitting two MASSIVE items from your portrayal of Clem's first seven seasons here - he made it to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8. To omit that for whatever reason puts little impact on the rest of your comparison.

If Tubby had taken his first two NCAA Tourney teams to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 we wouldn't be having 95% of the conversations on Tubby that we're having. Instead they laid eggs against Texas and Xavier - the latter being excruciatingly painful game as we showed no emotion or fight.

Go Gophers!!
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I agree you can't leave out those achievements. I disagree that we wouldn't be having this conversation we are now had Tubby done that.

Sports, especially in Minnesota, is 110% what have you done lately. If tubby had made a sweet 16 we'd be complaining he hasn't made a final 4 yet in year 6 and he should be fired.
 

Did Clem even recruit Burton or Newbern? I'm sure he was probably hired after that whole class had already committed to the U.
 


Here is the deal...I know people like the ones on this board complaining all the time. I was at a party just before the Big Ten season started and one of the So-Called Gopher fans was telling me that the Gophers and Tubby were in trouble if they lost the Big Ten opener against MSU. We were 15-1 and he was just waiting to pounce!!!! I should have been able to predict it. But you know what, i've known this guy for 30 years and he isn't a fan of anything. He is a bandwagon jumper who just cheers against things. I would rather cut off my you know what than be a fan like him. If the Gophers go 6-12 this year, yeah I would probably make a move. But they could still go conceivably go 12-6 and make a run in the tournament. Then a lot of people on this messageboard will look pretty stupid. Kansas, Louisville and Syracuse have all hit little bumps lately...it happens to almost all teams. Just in Minnesota we have fans who just wait for it to happen so they can call for the coach to be fired.
 




ethomasp31 said:
Here is the deal...I know people like the ones on this board complaining all the time. I was at a party just before the Big Ten season started and one of the So-Called Gopher fans was telling me that the Gophers and Tubby were in trouble if they lost the Big Ten opener against MSU. We were 15-1 and he was just waiting to pounce!!!! I should have been able to predict it. But you know what, i've known this guy for 30 years and he isn't a fan of anything. He is a bandwagon jumper who just cheers against things. I would rather cut off my you know what than be a fan like him. If the Gophers go 6-12 this year, yeah I would probably make a move. But they could still go conceivably go 12-6 and make a run in the tournament. Then a lot of people on this messageboard will look pretty stupid. Kansas, Louisville and Syracuse have all hit little bumps lately...it happens to almost all teams. Just in Minnesota we have fans who just wait for it to happen so they can call for the coach to be fired.
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We do love firing our coaches here. Minnesota fans love when teams lose so they can complain about it and say "I told you so" this isn't just with Tubby. It is every coach in Minnesota and every single loss. The only safe guy is Gardenhire and only because the media sticks up for him every chance they get.
 

ethomasp31 said:
Here is the deal...I know people like the ones on this board complaining all the time. I was at a party just before the Big Ten season started and one of the So-Called Gopher fans was telling me that the Gophers and Tubby were in trouble if they lost the Big Ten opener against MSU. We were 15-1 and he was just waiting to pounce!!!! I should have been able to predict it. But you know what, i've known this guy for 30 years and he isn't a fan of anything. He is a bandwagon jumper who just cheers against things. I would rather cut off my you know what than be a fan like him. If the Gophers go 6-12 this year, yeah I would probably make a move. But they could still go conceivably go 12-6 and make a run in the tournament. Then a lot of people on this messageboard will look pretty stupid. Kansas, Louisville and Syracuse have all hit little bumps lately...it happens to almost all teams. Just in Minnesota we have fans who just wait for it to happen so they can call for the coach to be fired.
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Your theory would be correct if the discussion on Tubby was only this year, we are talking about 6 years. To me there is nothing more negative than believing this is what was expected. No one was more excited and supportive of Tubby from his hiring onward, but you have to call a spade a spade after 6 years of consistently not meeting expectations.
 

goldengophers said:
A pile of excuses, Tubby's conference record is inexcusable. We hired the most accomplished coach Minnesota has ever hired with a contract that matched those expectations. He obviously has till the end of the year but a loss in the first round of the tourney should result in his immediate firing.
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And if they loose in the second round? Sweet 16?.......Come on, help me out. I'm very curious where exactly your line in the sand is drawn.
 

We are talking 5 years....this is the 6th year and it's not over. You've already given up on the year so go cheer for someone else. I hate fans like that and have much higher expectations for FANS than that. We have been incredibly unlucky the last two seasons when our best player has been hurt during the season each year. I think the program is moving in the right direction, and I don't understand what the thinking would be to change coaching staffs, especially with a big recruiting class in the state that are juniors. You want to bring in a new coach who doesn't have any relationships built with these recruits? That makes no sense, especially when you are talking about a team with a top 10 RPI, top 3 SOS and ranked in the AP Top 20.
 

BTen said:
And if they loose in the second round? Sweet 16?.......Come on, help me out. I'm very curious where exactly your line in the sand is drawn.
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My perspective is that failing to make the round of 32 is pretty inexcusable (both from the perspective that we need a coach to get there sometime in his first 6 years, and because looking at just this year, I have to believe it should be one of the best 32 teams in the country).

If we lost in the round of 32, I'd recognize this as a good season (certainly better than most we had), and a good improvement, and a would expect us to continue to build next season. Looking at it as an entire body of work however, I would be disappointed that we only had one tournament win over 6 years.

If we make the Sweet 16, I would be unequivocally happy through the offseason (assuming that whatever game we lose in, we don't do something really boneheaded and avoidable to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory).
 

Okay, that's fair. I think they will make it past the first round, but the best 32 teams in the country don't always make it past the first round.

Would you be willing to agree that they have had pretty bad luck the last two season in losing Al Nolen during the Big Ten season two years ago and Trevor Mbakwe last year or they would probably have a few tournament wins already under Tubby? Should Tubby somehow be at fault for those guys getting injured? Or should those injuries not be under consideration at all for how the year turned out.
 

ethomasp31 said:
Okay, that's fair. I think they will make it past the first round, but the best 32 teams in the country don't always make it past the first round.

Would you be willing to agree that they have had pretty bad luck the last two season in losing Al Nolen during the Big Ten season two years ago and Trevor Mbakwe last year or they would probably have a few tournament wins already under Tubby? Should Tubby somehow be at fault for those guys getting injured? Or should those injuries not be under consideration at all for how the year turned out.
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Ok Mbakwe was out but you also had Iverson transfer, the Iverson transfer would be on Tubby. A headcoach in college basketball is both the GM and coach, in his 6th year a feel completely confident in saying (injuries or not) that this has been a tenure far below expectations.
 

ethomasp31 said:
We are talking 5 years....this is the 6th year and it's not over. You've already given up on the year so go cheer for someone else. I hate fans like that and have much higher expectations for FANS than that. We have been incredibly unlucky the last two seasons when our best player has been hurt during the season each year. I think the program is moving in the right direction, and I don't understand what the thinking would be to change coaching staffs, especially with a big recruiting class in the state that are juniors. You want to bring in a new coach who doesn't have any relationships built with these recruits? That makes no sense, especially when you are talking about a team with a top 10 RPI, top 3 SOS and ranked in the AP Top 20.
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So hold on? If we don't win a first round game or possibly further, we aren't getting the recruits. BTW I never said I gave up on the year, my comments were an evaluation of Tubby Smith.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
My perspective is that failing to make the round of 32 is pretty inexcusable (both from the perspective that we need a coach to get there sometime in his first 6 years, and because looking at just this year, I have to believe it should be one of the best 32 teams in the country).

If we lost in the round of 32, I'd recognize this as a good season (certainly better than most we had), and a good improvement, and a would expect us to continue to build next season. Looking at it as an entire body of work however, I would be disappointed that we only had one tournament win over 6 years.

If we make the Sweet 16, I would be unequivocally happy through the offseason (assuming that whatever game we lose in, we don't do something really boneheaded and avoidable to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory).
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Fair enough. I just try to look at things from a larger perspective, meaning that in my opinion, Joel Maturi was a big issue that was taken care of. Next on the list is facilities. Once that has been taken care of it would seem that the debate regarding a new coaching staff would be justified. I just believe that it's a bit premature to have that debate now, that's all. For now I'm just hoping for a good couple of games against Illinois and WI to get back on track.
 

goldengophers said:
Ok Mbakwe was out but you also had Iverson transfer, the Iverson transfer would be on Tubby. A headcoach in college basketball is both the GM and coach, in his 6th year a feel completely confident in saying (injuries or not) that this has been a tenure far below expectations.
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Do you fire the GM of a team where the owner refuses to spend any money?
 

goldengophers said:
So hold on? If we don't win a first round game or possibly further, we aren't getting the recruits. BTW I never said I gave up on the year, my comments were an evaluation of Tubby Smith.
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No i'm saying that the present staff has relationships built with Jones, Vaughn and Reid and you decrease the chances of getting them if you change staffs at the end of the year.
 

BTen said:
Fair enough. I just try to look at things from a larger perspective, meaning that in my opinion, Joel Maturi was a big issue that was taken care of. Next on the list is facilities. Once that has been taken care of it would seem that the debate regarding a new coaching staff would be justified. I just believe that it's a bit premature to have that debate now, that's all. For now I'm just hoping for a good couple of games against Illinois and WI to get back on track.
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So he's safe with a sub .500 record and no tourney wins until facilities are dealt with? Forgive me for expecting more.
 


goldengophers said:
Ok Mbakwe was out but you also had Iverson transfer, the Iverson transfer would be on Tubby. A headcoach in college basketball is both the GM and coach, in his 6th year a feel completely confident in saying (injuries or not) that this has been a tenure far below expectations.
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I don't feel they are far below expectations and if it weren't for those two injuries, they wouldn't be below expectations at all. Furthermore, besides Clem's 11th season as coach, Tubby has done just we well, and if he coaches 13 years at Minnesota, his Gopher coaching resume will be just as good as Clem's in every way.
 

goldengophers said:
So he's safe with a sub .500 record and no tourney wins until facilities are dealt with? Forgive me for expecting more.
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Without those two injuries, he wouldn't have a sub .500 Big Ten record with zero tourney wins. Do you not understand that? Like I said, Clem was 48-78 his first 7 years as Gopher coach in the Big Ten. If you want, throw out his first two years and he was still sub .500 in his next 5 years.
 

ethomasp31 said:
I don't feel they are far below expectations and if it weren't for those two injuries, they wouldn't be below expectations at all. Furthermore, besides Clem's 11th season as coach, Tubby has done just we well, and if he coaches 13 years at Minnesota, his Gopher coaching resume will be just as good as Clem's in every way.
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I don't care about Clem Haskins, I expect more out of Tubby Smith.
 

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