The Truth about tubby take 2

[scher215]

It is comical to me for some people to think you can just get up and transfer. Everybody can not transfer the coach will not let you or give you a release obviously it hurts the APR DUUUHHH!. If you think I am lying about players not being happy with tubby thats fine im just here to inform. You can believe it or not but it is obvious. Paul carter , Justin cobbs, colton iverson, devoe joesph, chip aremlin, royce white (he just was a problem in his own right but he did leave and was very successful), Kevin payton, Brandon Smith, all guys who left the program during the time tubby was at the head. Now if that does not tell you something is wrong there nothing will. Also devoe went on to be all pac 12 as will cobbs, Jay bilas is on record saying iverson is the best post player in college basketball right now. Paul carter plays in the D league and has been invite to NBA training camps as well as summer leagues. Now all these players people bashed to some degree. Nobody gets that much better over one year. No they leave and find there confidence and they go back to being the player thats we all though they could or should be.

The main thing I agree with what you are saying is how little confidence the guys have. You don't get to be a D1 athlete without confidence, so something happened between high school and now obviously. It'd make sense that it is coaching.

The only thing I still take issue with, as does Rouser, is the word hate. Dan Coleman played for Tubby and in your words hated him. And yet, Joe had full access to Dan's private opinions and he committed to Minnesota and Tubby Smith, knowing every dirty secret of the program. If Tubby truly ruins lives I can't imagine Joe ever committing here no matter where the school is located. He didn't commit with any other MN players or close friends or anything. There isn't another Hopkins grad on the team even.

Agree with above as well, I trust Teague and Ellis know what is going on. Talks to the guys. Goes to the games. And will make the appropriate basketball decision at the end of the season. And it comes down to one simple mantra, just win baby win (without cheating).

 

[scher215]

When will it be time to put the pressure on tubby. I mean how many more years do you want him to waste? I understand that you do not understand so I can not even be upset with you. All I am saying is we can not keep giving this man a pass simply off his name and past success. Do you want to sit back and watch another sub par 500. season and hear the same ol excuses or remove the problem known as tubby smith. He has had 6 yrs thats more then enough time. If you are happy with his results so far then thats on you , I for one am not and I think a lot of people are with me on that. As well people are starting to see through the BS and are also getting impatient with the guy.

No matter what fans "want" or "let slide" there are two people and two people only who can determine the fate of Tubby Smith: Mike Ellis and Norwood Teague. Your postings on the message board may inform fans, but you do not (assuming you are not Teague or Ellis) determine Tubby's fate.

 

[scher215]

Couldn't agree more. Some of the in game thread comments are atrocious.

Agreed. These players are giving their heart and talents to this school and team. The bashing that does happen is pretty brutal and disgusting at times.

 

[TLHGO4]

When will it be time to put the pressure on tubby. I mean how many more years do you want him to waste? I understand that you do not understand so I can not even be upset with you. All I am saying is we can not keep giving this man a pass simply off his name and past success. Do you want to sit back and watch another sub par 500. season and hear the same ol excuses or remove the problem known as tubby smith. He has had 6 yrs thats more then enough time. If you are happy with his results so far then thats on you , I for one am not and I think a lot of people are with me on that. As well people are starting to see through the BS and are also getting impatient with the guy.

I'm not supporting Tubby. I'm just putting my trust In Teague to do the right thing when the season is over. If you prove to be correct and Tubby is replaced I'm fine with that. Until then I won't take sides.

You mentioned concerns about seeing another sub-par .500 season. Please be aware that of the 16 coaches the U has had in it's history only four have finished with a career record in the B1G over .500. They are L. J. Cooke 104-100 .510, Ozzie Cowles 86-68 .558, John Kundla 67-59 .532, and Bill Musselman 38-22 .633. When you include Clem Haskin's vacated years his record is 108-122 .470, hardly the stuff of legends. The Gopher's all time Big Ten record in basketball is 728-817 .471. Lastly, Tubby's Big Ten record at Minnesota is 49-63 .438. He currently is ninth among the 16 UM basketball coaches in career Big Ten winning percentage. All of this information can be found in the Gopher Hole History & Stats section.

 

[GoodasGold]

Also like I said before I am closer then you all would ever even guess Im as close as the coachs who have names on this board, and yes the ast have secret names on this board and I have a msg for them as well. Do not think to hard on who I am because you will just be frying your brain HA! because I know they are watching. What you guys may not know as well is players, they read these boards daily and if you are a true fan. Coming on here and seeing there self get bashed is not what you want to see it does not help the fact at all. Trust me when I say they read this because they do, They talked about gopherhole and the people on here making comments that do not know what is going on. Like I said I understand thought because you all are not informed you dont have a clue what is really going on behind close doors. If you open your eyes and look and the trends tubby's teams have every yr start out great finish horrible get a spark here and there at the end you would understand. It is him not the players. They use to use the excuse that he did not have his players well *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!# now he does. No Injuries no anything and you finish 8-10 in the B1G you did that your first yr. its your 6th season really and you have had 6 players transfer? Open your eyes people Im tired of this so I decided to come back to this board we need a change soon it cant be more obvious then this year.

Playa, I have no clue as to who you is...but the thought has crossed my mind that you may be FOT's evil twin EOT.

 

[goldengophers]

I'm not supporting Tubby. I'm just putting my trust In Teague to do the right thing when the season is over. If you prove to be correct and Tubby is replaced I'm fine with that. Until then I won't take sides.

You mentioned concerns about seeing another sub-par .500 season. Please be aware that of the 16 coaches the U has had in it's history only four have finished with a career record in the B1G over .500. They are L. J. Cooke 104-100 .510, Ozzie Cowles 86-68 .558, John Kundla 67-59 .532, and Bill Musselman 38-22 .633. When you include Clem Haskin's vacated years his record is 108-122 .470, hardly the stuff of legends. The Gopher's all time Big Ten record in basketball is 728-817 .471. Lastly, Tubby's Big Ten record at Minnesota is 49-63 .438. He currently is ninth among the 16 UM basketball coaches in career Big Ten winning percentage. All of this information can be found in the Gopher Hole History & Stats section.

Obviously Tubby was a different type of hire than all the coaches in modern history, the expectations were very fair from day 1. No need to dig into the archives to figure out a sub .500 record is beyond unacceptable.

 

[Blackhammer]

I'm not supporting Tubby. I'm just putting my trust In Teague to do the right thing when the season is over. If you prove to be correct and Tubby is replaced I'm fine with that. Until then I won't take sides.

You mentioned concerns about seeing another sub-par .500 season. Please be aware that of the 16 coaches the U has had in it's history only four have finished with a career record in the B1G over .500. They are L. J. Cooke 104-100 .510, Ozzie Cowles 86-68 .558, John Kundla 67-59 .532, and Bill Musselman 38-22 .633. When you include Clem Haskin's vacated years his record is 108-122 .470, hardly the stuff of legends. The Gopher's all time Big Ten record in basketball is 728-817 .471. Lastly, Tubby's Big Ten record at Minnesota is 49-63 .438. He currently is ninth among the 16 UM basketball coaches in career Big Ten winning percentage. All of this information can be found in the Gopher Hole History & Stats section.

So your saying that makes this miserable team that gets worse as the season goes on year after year, OK? I listened to Tubby on the sports huddle today. His optimism makes you want to stick your head in the stove. He makes Glen Mason look like Knute Rockne.And the pointless rambling is baffling.

 

[GophersInIowa]

O I totally understand I would be a little skeptical as well...But the more I post the more you will start to believe...

Again, no offense, but you haven't said anything so far that isn't far fetched or hard to understand from the outside. Most people agree all these things are probably happening to some extent.

You very well could be speaking the truth about everything but I still have to take it as someone just randomly posting on a message board.

 

[alchemy2u]

You're right. Its impossibly difficult. My bad. I didn't realize life was so hard for these kids. Hey, I realize that if a player is unhappy, its not easy to leave.. but if he HATES his coach (point of these posts), then why would they stay because its not easy to transfer. If you are unhappy, but have family and friends near, sure I can see staying. But if you are talented and HATE the coach, why stay?

Rouser, I am so proud of you and how you have been able to overcome the drudgery that befalls so many mere mortals.

The point of these posts are not that the players HATE the coach, it is in how Tubby has lost his ability to coach. Imagine for a moment that a mortal you know, is playing for a coach that is unclear in his instructions, gives conflicting messages, punishes you for not reading his mind, blames the players for all of the problems and doesn't give positive reenforcement on anything they do right. Would it be possible for those players to lose respect for the coach, lose confidence in their playing abilities and tend to look lost during the game.

I have no doubt that most of what GP is saying is based upon the truth. It is obvious to anyone who watches the games that the players are confused about what is expected of them and they have a very tight leash on what they are allowed to do in the games. For example, when Joe started playing as a freshman he showed a natural ability to drive to the basket, now it only happens during garbage time if Tubby lets him play. For two years it looked like Rodney had forgotten how to dribble the basketball because all Tubby had him do was stand out on the perimeter and pass it around the circle. The best leaper in the country spending most of the game outside of the three point line! It has been a tremendous waste of talent to have the life taken out of these players.

 

[GophersInIowa]

When will it be time to put the pressure on tubby. I mean how many more years do you want him to waste? I understand that you do not understand so I can not even be upset with you. All I am saying is we can not keep giving this man a pass simply off his name and past success. Do you want to sit back and watch another sub par 500. season and hear the same ol excuses or remove the problem known as tubby smith. He has had 6 yrs thats more then enough time. If you are happy with his results so far then thats on you , I for one am not and I think a lot of people are with me on that. As well people are starting to see through the BS and are also getting impatient with the guy.

You've said that several times and I don't understand it. Most everyone has been very critical of Tubby for some time now. Most everyone felt this was a make or break year for him.

 

[#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat]

I think its Saul.

 

[TLHGO4]

So your saying that makes this miserable team that gets worse as the season goes on year after year, OK? I listened to Tubby on the sports huddle today. His optimism makes you want to stick your head in the stove. He makes Glen Mason look like Knute Rockne.And the pointless rambling is baffling.

Never said it was OK. I'm placing my trust in Teague and his management team to do the right thing for Gopher basketball. Hopefully the University administrators won't interfere with their decisions. I'm as frustrated as everyone else in the results this year in particular. Unfortunately I'm 1300 miles away from Minneapolis and don't get all the information many of you on this board have access to.

Based upon your comments regarding Tubby's sports huddle appearance this morning maybe the best thing is for Tubby to retire and form a Homer consulting group with Sid.

 

[Dr.Don]

Never said it was OK. I'm placing my trust in Teague and his management team to do the right thing for Gopher basketball. Hopefully the University administrators won't interfere with their decisions. I'm as frustrated as everyone else in the results this year in particular. Unfortunately I'm 1300 miles away from Minneapolis and don't get all the information many of you on this board have access to.

Based upon your comments regarding Tubby's sports huddle appearance this morning maybe the best thing is for Tubby to retire and form a Homer consulting group with Sid.[/QUOTE]

That would never work because Sid won't/can't listen to anyone.

 

[Mikie S]

Coaches like Coack K, Roy Williams, Pitino have done something that Tubby is unwilling to do...evolve with the game. Heck, even the slow show in Wisconsin has been evolving. Simple fact; Tubby has gotten NOTHING out of arguably some of the most athletic players in the conference...Its so obvious these guys have quit on him. The IU win was for the seniors...with a player only meeting before the game. If Tubby stays, we have no shot at any of the Big 3 and potentially have others transfer. I would say Norwood has a pretty easy job firing the underachiever.

I realized this 3-4 years ago. When Tubby was questioned about His System, he simply said (paraphrase) "My system has worked in the past and there is no need to change it." Yep, and the two-handed set shot worked in the past too. No reason to change Tubby.

 

[Moses87]

I had a conversation with a friend of mine who says Tubby would be under fire right now on a national level if it weren't for his race. But none of the big-time talking heads on ESPN, CBS or BTN will ever have the guts to call call out a minority coach because they are too afraid to be labeled racist. My friend also brought up Frank Heath as an example of someone not getting enough heat because of the same reasons. Meanwhile, people were calling out Ben Howland at UCLA for having the game pass him by, right up until he won the Pac 12 yesterday.

Is there a double standard by national media because of PC reasons? Apparently the only guy on the national scene who hasn't given Tubby a free pass is the guy at CBS(Doyle).

Why won't more national media types call out Tubby?

 

[goldengophers]

I had a conversation with a friend of mine who says Tubby would be under fire right now on a national level if it weren't for his race. But none of the big-time talking heads on ESPN, CBS or BTN will ever have the guts to call call out a minority coach because they are too afraid to be labeled racist. My friend also brought up Frank Heath as an example of someone not getting enough heat because of the same reasons. Meanwhile, people were calling out Ben Howland at UCLA for having the game pass him by, right up until he won the Pac 12 yesterday.

Is there a double standard by national media because of PC reasons? Apparently the only guy on the national scene who hasn't given Tubby a free pass is the guy at CBS(Doyle).

Why won't more national media types call out Tubby?

To be frank I couldn't care less about the national media

 

[Plainviewgopher]

Why won't more national media types call out Tubby?

Probably because to the national media our program is right where it is expected to be, middle of the pack in the big ten. I don't think we have done anything in recent years to warrant higher national expectations IMO.

 

[Mikie S]

I like you're thinking but i believe she asked, "aside from Flip." I think that we all know Flip would jump on the chance to coach the Gophers. There are mixed feelings on this board about Flip. IMO he would be a great get, if he could get a solid assistant that knows how to recruit.

I've read on this board that people think he can't recruit (I personally don't think it would be an issue). They say he never won. fact is he had a winning record with the WOLVES, good run with the Pistons, and then unfortunately took the Wizards job. From a X's and O's stand point, our offense would no longer be an issue that's for sure but he would need a defensive guru on the staff. Although, we do need to remember that he did coach Professionals who don't like to play D day in and day out. As far as recruiting, Flip is a really likeable guy! Players coach who the recruits will love and doesn't tend to call out players or throw his team under the bus.

IMO I would reach out to Shaka Smart 1st and if he didn't want the job I would offer Flip right after that.

There is no bigger shill for Flip on this board than me. I was leading the charge for Flip to replace Monson. I was ambivalent about the Tubby hire, because the fans "Know" & Kentucky fans were dead against him. But I ended up drinking the cool-aide. The Gopher's could have done worse ... couldn't they have?

Meanwhile, Flip is currently being rumored to take over GM duties for the Wolves after the NBA season. He may not be as available as I hope & pray he is. Former NBA coaches have had great success when they've taken over college programs. And yes, they have been able to recruit quite successfully.

 

[e.bigelow]

Think about this everybody and Im not trying to bash him Im just telling the truth. If he does go to the tourney was he worth all those years and money? What are really the standards for coaching in minnesota? If monson had got a 6 yr extension and done this we would all be saying fire him right? Just because tubby smith is tubby smith he gets a pass? Why do you think UK got rid of him, Ill tell you why because you have all americans just knocking at the door to come there. You do not have to recruit and he could not even get the best players to come there when he was there. How crazy is that sure he won so sec titles. Also a championship with pitino recruits but think about this if her never has hoffarber ( monson recruit) damian Johnson ( monson recruit) westbook aka the badger killer (monson recruit) Al nolan with all his steals and his ability to get guys like Hoff going (monson recruit)... All his players are the ones that transfered beside Kevin payton...There is something going on here that the people are not paying attention to lets look harder people. Take you blinders off and you will see the truth it is time for him to go...

All of this is EXACTLY it! Especially the bold part for me. There are a few people on here who absolutely love Tubby and think we can not do any better. Anytime you question anything he does they will get after you and then start "where are the Tubby haters" threads after every win and really not chime in much after AWFUL losses (i.e. 20 point losses to Iowa & OSU, losing @ Nebraska & PudDon't, NW losses and so on.). I like Tubby Smith as a person, but for a Coach to claim that he has had "his best team yet" in his tenure, it is incredibly disappointing to watch a team succeed and fail like they have this season.

I know some of the owness is on the players, but at what point is some of the poor performance on the coaching staff as well? I have just become to frustrated with everything that has gone on this season to not be upset with another mediocre 8-10 B1G Ten season.

Now, if somehow, a light bulb clicks on and we see the team go on a deep run in the tourney, I will be the first to say that I was completely wrong and Tubby must have gotten something out of or some sort of buy in from the players. But, honestly, for me, I am just not seeing it from the players or coaching staff at this point. And, I would absolutely LOVE to have them prove me wrong. We all want the team to do well and be successful, but this season has just become incredibly frustrating for a number of fans, myself included. Just my thoughts.

 

[goldengophers]

Probably because to the national media our program is right where it is expected to be, middle of the pack in the big ten. I don't think we have done anything in recent years to warrant higher national expectations IMO.

We aren't middle of pack B1G, you must live under a rock.

 

[Johnnyboy18]

We aren't middle of pack B1G, you must live under a rock.

What is tied for 7th?

 

[Plainviewgopher]

We aren't middle of pack B1G, you must live under a rock.

Guess I considered a 3 way tie for 7th place out of 12 teams pretty close to middle of the pack. I'll go back to my rock now.

 

[scher215]

All of this is EXACTLY it! Especially the bold part for me. There are a few people on here who absolutely love Tubby and think we can not do any better. Anytime you question anything he does they will get after you and then start "where are the Tubby haters" threads after every win and really not chime in much after AWFUL losses (i.e. 20 point losses to Iowa & OSU, losing @ Nebraska & PudDon't, NW losses and so on.). I like Tubby Smith as a person, but for a Coach to claim that he has had "his best team yet" in his tenure, it is incredibly disappointing to watch a team succeed and fail like they have this season.

I know some of the owness is on the players, but at what point is some of the poor performance on the coaching staff as well? I have just become to frustrated with everything that has gone on this season to not be upset with another mediocre 8-10 B1G Ten season.

Now, if somehow, a light bulb clicks on and we see the team go on a deep run in the tourney, I will be the first to say that I was completely wrong and Tubby must have gotten something out of or some sort of buy in from the players. But, honestly, for me, I am just not seeing it from the players or coaching staff at this point. And, I would absolutely LOVE to have them prove me wrong. We all want the team to do well and be successful, but this season has just become incredibly frustrating for a number of fans, myself included. Just my thoughts.

I personally hope that regardless of tourney success Teague has private, confidential interviews with each player.

If the vast majority voice concern about Tubby as a coach and his motivation then make a move regardless of success.

The players are in a tough spot. If they truly HATE Tubby, they know losing is the only way to get rid of him - a concern for all non seniors. At the same time, their image, NBA success, and winning is all important to them and on the line as well. It isn't an easy situation. I'd hope they players go out there and kick butt because they have pride in themselves. That they just, in essence, check out from Tubby all together and just play. He can't bench them all. Then, after the season go to Teague and voice your concerns and hope he does the right thing. All of that is assuming they truly do all hate him.

I am reminded, however, of Chris Halvorson voicing his support to AJ Barker for calling out an abusive coach. I wondered about it then, and wonder somewhat now.

 

[goldengophers]

Guess I considered a 3 way tie for 7th place out of 12 teams pretty close to middle of the pack. I'll go back to my rock now.

Ahead of Iowa would be middle of the pack, we were projected 4th or 5th nationally. Back to your rock.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Ahead of Iowa would be middle of the pack, back to your rock.

You realize the phrase "middle of the pack" has the word middle in it right?

 

[#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat]

Meanwhile, people were calling out Ben Howland at UCLA for having the game pass him by, right up until he won the Pac 12 yesterday.

Well Moses87 -- I do see the point you are trying to make, but winning a conf title in the Pac-12 might get you nothing more than a trip to the NIT.


I'm not saying UCLA's going to the NIT, but it wouldn't shock me one bit to see them FLOP big time in the NCAA tournament. The Pac-12 is not very good. Oregon was in the running to win the conf until they lost to Utah and they weren't even rated Top 45 in the RPI.

 

[goldengophers]

You realize the phrase "middle of the pack" has the word middle in it right?

Tied for 7th isn't it.

 

[Moses87]

Well Moses87 -- I do see the point you are trying to make, but winning a conf title in the Pac-12 might get you nothing more than a trip to the NIT.


I'm not saying UCLA's going to the NIT, but it wouldn't shock me one bit to see them FLOP big time in the NCAA tournament. The Pac-12 is not very good. Oregon was in the running to win the conf until they lost to Utah and they weren't even rated Top 45 in the RPI.

UCLA lost some early games that were awful, but that was before Muhammed came onto the scene...They won the PAC 12 and despite what you think about that league, it was greatly improved this year. The Pac12 will get at least 5 teams in the dance, and maybe 6.

Howland and the Bruins beat Missouri when they were playing well early...Why isn't the national media going after Haith??? Why aren't they going after Tubby?

I think it has a lot to do with fear.

 

[tikited]

This I agree with completely with. If we think this message board is harsh.. should read the ones tied to the big programs (no, we are not a big program.. yet).

Yep. Some more hoops crazed boards are downright scary bad. This board is PG-13 compared.

 

[XMan]

I personally hope that regardless of tourney success Teague has private, confidential interviews with each player.

If the vast majority voice concern about Tubby as a coach and his motivation then make a move regardless of success.

The players are in a tough spot. If they truly HATE Tubby, they know losing is the only way to get rid of him - a concern for all non seniors. At the same time, their image, NBA success, and winning is all important to them and on the line as well. It isn't an easy situation. I'd hope they players go out there and kick butt because they have pride in themselves. That they just, in essence, check out from Tubby all together and just play. He can't bench them all. Then, after the season go to Teague and voice your concerns and hope he does the right thing. All of that is assuming they truly do all hate him.

I am reminded, however, of Chris Halvorson voicing his support to AJ Barker for calling out an abusive coach. I wondered about it then, and wonder somewhat now.

I am not sure i believe the "they hate tubby stuff" but even if it were true these kids don't want to lose, they will go out and play their best in the tournament.