The Truth about tubby take 2

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FanSinceTheFifties said:
We recruit good athletes. Wisconsin recruits good basketball players.
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Correct it's tough to win in the B1G without players who do the fundamental things well. You cant win consistently running a Freddy vs Jason offensive system in the B1G.
 


GophersInIowa said:
Wisconsin offered Rodney Williams.
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Of course there's no way to ever know, but does anyone else besides me have a sneaking suspicion that if Rodney had gone to Madison he'd be the one making 38-foot desperation jump shots to miraculously win games?
 

Bad Gopher said:
Of course there's no way to ever know, but does anyone else besides me have a sneaking suspicion that if Rodney had gone to Madison he'd be the one making 38-foot desperation jump shots to miraculously win games?
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Lets use a more realistic suggesting, as I don't think Rodney would have fit into Bo's system at all. he likely would have struggled MORE than he has here (if you argue he has struggled).

Lets say Rodney was offered by MSU (I know he wasn't that caliber but just bare with me)

I believe (it is my opinion) that Rodney would be significantly more disciplined and would be mentally tougher than he is after 4 years at Minn.

I think Izzo would use him in almost the same fashion we used Rodney last year and his game would resemble Payne's more-so than the game we see now.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Of course there's no way to ever know, but does anyone else besides me have a sneaking suspicion that if Rodney had gone to Madison he'd be the one making 38-foot desperation jump shots to miraculously win games?
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My hunch is his ball handling skills would be much improved, at the least.
 


Winasota Gopher said:
I believe (it is my opinion) that Rodney would be significantly more disciplined and would be mentally tougher than he is after 4 years at Minn.

I think Izzo would use him in almost the same fashion we used Rodney last year and his game would resemble Payne's more-so than the game we see now.
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I think it is pretty obvious that Rodney would have been a more complete player if he would have went to MSU. He also could have been worse if he went to a program that just ran up and down the court all willy-nilly. I just don't think Tubby figured out how to get the most out of him and it doesn't look like Rodney did enough to improve his game on his own.
 

tikited said:
I think it is pretty obvious that Rodney would have been a more complete player if he would have went to MSU. He also could have been worse if he went to a program that just ran up and down the court all willy-nilly. I just don't think Tubby figured out how to get the most out of him and it doesn't look like Rodney did enough to improve his game on his own.
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Wherever he ended up going, I wish someone had worked with him on his free throw form. Considering his mechanics, I'm pleased that he even makes a third of his attempts.
 

Playa, any word if there are any current Gophers lookin to transfer after this season?
 

FanSinceTheFifties said:
We recruit good athletes. Wisconsin recruits good basketball players.
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These so called good athletes can't defend people off the bounce at all. The quickness of our guards is way overrated. Take Rodney out of the mix and were really not much more athletic that most teams, probably less athletic than a lot of the Big Ten. Athletic? Let's see Welch,Maverik, Elliot, Oto,Walker, you got Dre and Coleman who are too slow to defend most guards. We might have three athletes Rodney,Trevor, and Austin. Two who don't like contact, three who can't dribble and two who can't shoot.
 



I'm no insider, but you really have to be concerned about the direction of this program. We're losing our two best front court players as well as two relatively solid reserves. Who's to say someone doesn't transfer. I doubt Tubby is getting any of the three 2014 guys. Perhaps even a new coach would be the only remaining shot we have with any of them. The team has been mediocre to bad his whole six years here and it looks like it's about to get worse. I don't know Teague, but by reputation he's a basketball guy and the guys he brought in are basketball guys so they probably aren't afraid to make a move.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
Lets use a more realistic suggesting, as I don't think Rodney would have fit into Bo's system at all. he likely would have struggled MORE than he has here (if you argue he has struggled).

Lets say Rodney was offered by MSU (I know he wasn't that caliber but just bare with me)

I believe (it is my opinion) that Rodney would be significantly more disciplined and would be mentally tougher than he is after 4 years at Minn.

I think Izzo would use him in almost the same fashion we used Rodney last year and his game would resemble Payne's more-so than the game we see now.
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Wasn't he like a top 30-40 recruit? That doesn't mean he was MSU caliber with regard to certain things they might look for, but at least in terms of rankings/regard, he was.

His game has always been based off superior athleticism. He is much more effective now than he was an underclassman, in part because of coaching, in part because of being forced to develop other skills and tendencies (that are still inconsistent sometimes)... who knows if that would've changed with a different program. Interesting to think about, though.
 

JDGopher said:
Wasn't he like a top 30-40 recruit? That doesn't mean he was MSU caliber with regard to certain things they might look for, but at least in terms of rankings/regard, he was.

His game has always been based off superior athleticism. He is much more effective now than he was an underclassman, in part because of coaching, in part because of being forced to develop other skills and tendencies (that are still inconsistent sometimes)... who knows if that would've changed with a different program. Interesting to think about, though.
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I stand corrected, you are right, it would not have been outside the realm of possibilities had Rodney receive an offer from Izzo...
 

tinyarch said:
Sorry.

The truth about Tubby is that I really wanted him to be the coach who lifted us out of the cellar and brought us up to the top third of the conference on a consistent basis. After watching him misuse Hoffarber and seemingly have no clue about a functional half-court offense, I began to wonder if my hopes were misplaced. I saw promising players leave the program in the middle of the season and I heard Tubby throw blame on players when a season started to go bad. I didn't like the pattern. After watching the same patterns emerge consistently, I simply felt that it was time the AD, Maturi, looked for a change. When Maturi gave the extension, that's when I saw that the problem was bigger than Tubby. We had a systemic failure at the top and a complacent attitude of comfort with mediocrity stemming from the front office. Now that Maturi is gone and Teague is directing affairs, I have a hope that this complacency will end. It is now very clear, and others at the GH are now fully in agreement with me, that Tubby has not matched expectations for success. His self-promoted best team has landed as 9th in the B1G, which is unacceptable for supporters of the program.

Like I've said before, this isn't about hating a person, it's about wanting a quality program for the University of MN. The University made a mistake in extending Tubby's contract. They will now have to eat that contract and look for a new coach to lead the basketball program. Minnesota can do better than 9th place. We have some talent at the High School level and we have a top 20 city in the country to recruit kids to. If we can get a SOA facility for the kids, great, but even if we don't, we can still attract talent that is higher than a 9th place finish in the B1G. It's time for a change. I wish Tubby well wherever he goes as long as he isn't the head coach of the Minnesota Gophers.
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You absolutely nailed it for me with everything you just posted! Well done! :clap:
 



Winasota Gopher said:
Lets use a more realistic suggesting, as I don't think Rodney would have fit into Bo's system at all. he likely would have struggled MORE than he has here (if you argue he has struggled).

Lets say Rodney was offered by MSU (I know he wasn't that caliber but just bare with me)

I believe (it is my opinion) that Rodney would be significantly more disciplined and would be mentally tougher than he is after 4 years at Minn.

I think Izzo would use him in almost the same fashion we used Rodney last year and his game would resemble Payne's more-so than the game we see now.
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Rodney and Branden Dawson are almost identical players leapers with no outside game.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
Rodney and Branden Dawson are almost identical players leapers with no outside game.
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Dawson is stronger. I believe he can handle better as well.

Rodney is a very good player. I hate to see people diminishing his skills just because his jump shot and ball handling aren't as great as they should be.

He is a good rebounder, shot blocker, and perimeter defender. It's not all about scoring. Rodney is a very solid player. Everyone saying well all he needs is a jump shot an better handling. Well yeah, and if he did he'd probably be the number 1 pick in the draft. His shot in the paint has gotten better as well when he can rise up and put it in.

Every player (save for maybe Kobe or LeBron) has weaknesses. I'd rather focus on the positives than the negatives, personally and while I would have liked to see Rodney shoot like Durant and handle like Kyrie, he offers a lot of positives to this team as well.
 

Here's what I see about Tubby. I don't think that he is intentionally a confidence killer. I do think that he is a guy who has a problem managing his frustration. I think some of that comes out everywhere, coaches, players, etc. in the program.

I think Tubby is frustrated with the lack of a practice facility. He seems to think that it should have been done a while ago and not be dependent upon the Team's performance. Is this a case of the Administration not putting forth the effort to build one under Maturi and now he doesn't seen one coming under Teague, thus causing him to become more frustrated and hypercritical? I don't know, I'm not an insider. However if Tubby is becoming hypercritical in an attempt to get the team to play better, it doesn't come off that way to players and coaches. I am sure Tubby knows this team needs to raise it's profile, but he may not have been aware how important it was to getting a practice facility built.

The team doesn't see any urgency to play better since they will not be around to practice in a new facility. They consider success getting back to the NCAA tournament, rather than going deep in the NIT.

If we need a new coach for next season, I would go with a young and hungry coach over an "old boy" M Club member because things will have a sense of urgency. I love the idea of alumni coming back to the U to help the school out, but if the football program is an indication it becomes a 35/65 proposition about moving forward rather than backsliding.

An alumni coach doesn't bring the sense of desperate urgency that a young and hungry coach would. Alumni coaches tend to be insulated from criticisms that may better the program because they can remember when there were criticisms in their playing days and they can fall back on a "there will always be critics" mentality when they feel insecure in their job. Young and hungry coaches are hypersensitive to criticism that would give them a stronger drive to silence the critics and prove themselves.

Properly addressing the deficiencies in the program could be the difference between saying at the end of next season, "there's always next year" and "How about them Gophers?"
 

Ewert86PC said:
Here's what I see about Tubby. I don't think that he is intentionally a confidence killer. I do think that he is a guy who has a problem managing his frustration. I think some of that comes out everywhere, coaches, players, etc. in the program.

I think Tubby is frustrated with the lack of a practice facility. He seems to think that it should have been done a while ago and not be dependent upon the Team's performance. Is this a case of the Administration not putting forth the effort to build one under Maturi and now he doesn't seen one coming under Teague, thus causing him to become more frustrated and hypercritical? I don't know, I'm not an insider. However if Tubby is becoming hypercritical in an attempt to get the team to play better, it doesn't come off that way to players and coaches. I am sure Tubby knows this team needs to raise it's profile, but he may not have been aware how important it was to getting a practice facility built.

The team doesn't see any urgency to play better since they will not be around to practice in a new facility. They consider success getting back to the NCAA tournament, rather than going deep in the NIT.

If we need a new coach for next season, I would go with a young and hungry coach over an "old boy" M Club member because things will have a sense of urgency. I love the idea of alumni coming back to the U to help the school out, but if the football program is an indication it becomes a 35/65 proposition about moving forward rather than backsliding.

An alumni coach doesn't bring the sense of desperate urgency that a young and hungry coach would. Alumni coaches tend to be insulated from criticisms that may better the program because they can remember when there were criticisms in their playing days and they can fall back on a "there will always be critics" mentality when they feel insecure in their job. Young and hungry coaches are hypersensitive to criticism that would give them a stronger drive to silence the critics and prove themselves.

Properly addressing the deficiencies in the program could be the difference between saying at the end of next season, "there's always next year" and "How about them Gophers?"
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Way too many assumptions.
 


Rodney expectations unfufilled

Rodney came into college with a high ranking based on his athleticsm and the hope he would work hard and a coach could help him aquire the skills to play the wing. He was 6'6" and 185lbs. He played on a hs team without a ton of size and he played inside. As a freshman in 11 min/g he averaged 4 pts, 1.6 reb, on 54% shooting, 28 % on 3's, 54% ft. You could see potential there if he put on weight and improved his outside shot, worked hard, and worked on dribbling. By his senior year, and I will give him some leeway on the shoulder. 28 min/g. 10.5 p, 5.2 reb, 1.4 blocks on 48 % shooting, 22% on 3's, and 63% from the line. In a league where the best teams start 3 if not 4 3 pt shooters having Rodney on the floor is a killer. We had Rodney and coleman, not to mention Ausin's slump. I think what fustrates me with Rodney is the obsession with dunks and blocks, and the lack of accountability on setting picks, moving without the ball, improving your handle, getting lost mentally on both ends. Rodney's great leaping ability for all its fanfare has probably cost him the focus he needed on the little things to get better. People who have played and watched a lot of basketball see this right away, kids who like big dunks are clueless. I was loving his aggressiveness in the NIT, but that disappeared once we played more physical teams. He is now a SR. I expected a more complete player with mental toughness. Probably like Ralph if you look at the stats of all top 50 players over 4 years his numbers hold up. It is just the potential for more, especially after watching Royce dominate in his 1 year and they were ranked near each other.

scher215 said:
Dawson is stronger. I believe he can handle better as well.
Rodney is a very good player. I hate to see people diminishing his skills just because his jump shot and ball handling aren't as great as they should be.
He is a good rebounder, shot blocker, and perimeter defender. It's not all about scoring. Rodney is a very solid player. Everyone saying well all he needs is a jump shot an better handling. Well yeah, and if he did he'd probably be the number 1 pick in the draft. His shot in the paint has gotten better as well when he can rise up and put it in.
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"...we have a top 20 city in the country to recruit kids to." Not sure this is an advantage.
 

FanSinceTheFifties said:
"...we have a top 20 city in the country to recruit kids to." Not sure this is an advantage.
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It is if you are selling a job network to the parents. "On the off chance that your son isn't the next Michael Jordan, the Twin Cities offer..."

We have a city that is filled with Fortune 500 companies and Gopher Alum who can get these kids started in a nice career. You can't say that about Lincoln.
 

tinyarch said:
It is if you are selling a job network to the parents. "On the off chance that your son isn't the next Michael Jordan, the Twin Cities offer..."

We have a city that is filled with Fortune 500 companies and Gopher Alum who can get these kids started in a nice career. You can't say that about Lincoln.
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I'd love to have a roster full of good student, good citizen, team-basketball players that stay for four years, get their degree, and stay and produce in our community. I don't think many on this board agree with that philosophy, however. You might be on to something -- get the parents to recognize your school as a school and not a slippery stepping stone to a one-in-a-thousand chance to be in the NBA.
 

tinyarch said:
It is if you are selling a job network to the parents. "On the off chance that your son isn't the next Michael Jordan, the Twin Cities offer..."

We have a city that is filled with Fortune 500 companies and Gopher Alum who can get these kids started in a nice career. You can't say that about Lincoln.
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Sadly, there are a lot of parents who probably are more worried about the NBA than all this. But you're right, it should be a good selling point for some.
 


tinyarch said:
It is if you are selling a job network to the parents. "On the off chance that your son isn't the next Michael Jordan, the Twin Cities offer..."

We have a city that is filled with Fortune 500 companies and Gopher Alum who can get these kids started in a nice career. You can't say that about Lincoln.
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True but college recruits all believe they're going to the association, the players who are worth a damn will hang on until they're told their not good enough. Plus were you really concerned about that sort of thing at age 17? I sure as hell wasn't
 

bemidjigopher said:
True but college recruits all believe they're going to the association, the players who are worth a damn will hang on until they're told their not good enough. Plus were you really concerned about that sort of thing at age 17? I sure as hell wasn't
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My parents would have been. And parents matter...especially moms. Moms want to know that their babies are going to cared for and have a backup. It's a great sell and its one part in getting a kid to come to the U of MN.
 

Damian weighs in:

"I really don't think he should be fired," former Gophers player Damian Johnson said. "The last couple years have been really tough situations for him. The one year with Al (Nolen) going down and Devoe (Joseph) transferring, we could have probably gone to the Elite Eight, easily. Then last year Trevor (Mbakwe) got hurt.

"So many different things happened since I left. The way this season has ended up going, it's tough for me to hear that he has a chance to get fired. Hopefully, he doesn't get fired and the team does well in the tournament. I think they should give him another shot."

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci...rce=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Go Gophers!!
 

tinyarch said:
My parents would have been. And parents matter...especially moms. Moms want to know that their babies are going to cared for and have a backup. It's a great sell and its one part in getting a kid to come to the U of MN.
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I'm glad you had noble parents, and I'll concede that it probably comes down to the recruits family backround, but those major selling points are just that a back up plan, it isn't going to make up for other institutions with better tradition and better facilities when the goal is making it to the NBA. Does anyone really think any of big three would come here if they weren't Minnesotan
 

BleedGopher said:
Damian weighs in:

"I really don't think he should be fired," former Gophers player Damian Johnson said. "The last couple years have been really tough situations for him. The one year with Al (Nolen) going down and Devoe (Joseph) transferring, we could have probably gone to the Elite Eight, easily. Then last year Trevor (Mbakwe) got hurt.

"So many different things happened since I left. The way this season has ended up going, it's tough for me to hear that he has a chance to get fired. Hopefully, he doesn't get fired and the team does well in the tournament. I think they should give him another shot."

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci...rce=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Go Gophers!!
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Hollins and Williams weigh in..

One criticism of Smith is that he hasn't done a great job of developing players at Minnesota. But Andre Hollins and Rodney Williams both said Thursday that they've gotten much better under Smith.

"From the first time I played my first collegiate basketball game until now, I think I've improved every day," Hollins said. "I'm grateful to be here. And I'm grateful for Coach Smith allowing me the opportunity."

Williams said, "When I came in, I definitely didn't rebound or play defense like I can now. My ball handling has gotten better. I've gotten stronger. I've definitely developed under Coach, so I don't get why people say stuff like that."
 

So wait??? The dude playa playa playa might have been talking out his ass!?!?!?! And the only guys complaining are the guys that feel like they were slighted by Tubby?

Didn't he make a comment about shaving his mustache off? Did Tubby switch barbers and now you are sour grapes?
 

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