All Things Gopher Players Appeals Process

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I honestly don't see how anyone can say this 'appeals process' is anything but an absolute farce. Even if one is convinced all is well and fine with the way Title IX is implemented and has already concluded that these guys are guilty, how in the flipping world is two days of 9 hours of appeals, one guy after the other, even REMOTELY fair? You honestly think the evidence/testimony of the poor schmuck getting his turn at 8:00 PM on Friday night is going to get the same level of thoughtful consideration as the guy that leads it off? No flipping way. They are literally doing little more than going through the motions and checking the box. "Yep, gave them their appeal."

Slowly the details are coming out that show the HUGE flaws in this process. University personnel administering line-ups, and now marathon 'appeals' sessions. This is EXACTLY what Title IX opponents feared this ridiculous process would lead to. Absurd.
 

tato2001 said:
I honestly don't see how anyone can say this 'appeals process' is anything but an absolute farce. Even if one is convinced all is well and fine with the way Title IX is implemented and has already concluded that these guys are guilty, how in the flipping world is two days of 9 hours of appeals, one guy after the other, even REMOTELY fair? You honestly think the evidence/testimony of the poor schmuck getting his turn at 8:00 PM on Friday night is going to get the same level of thoughtful consideration as the guy that leads it off? No flipping way. They are literally doing little more than going through the motions and checking the box. "Yep, gave them their appeal."

Slowly the details are coming out that show the HUGE flaws in this process. University personnel administering line-ups, and now marathon 'appeals' sessions. This is EXACTLY what Title IX opponents feared this ridiculous process would lead to. Absurd.
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Agreed. These cases should be heard separately and be allotted the time each needs. Yet another crock in this whole system. So very unimpressive.


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This whole thing stinks like a whorehouse at low tide
 

A_Slab_of_Bacon said:
At this rate we're about 6 GH threads away from the scuttlebutt being nobody was there .... and the place doesn't even exist.
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might be because we've actually investigated it?

Seriously, something happened, we don't know what, and probably never will. That said the EOAA report didn't look to resolve this situation, it looked to further an agenda. The accuser nor the players are ultimately served by this BS. If the four named in the police report were expelled, the accused are expelled, the accuser has some sense of safety on campus, and is not responsible for the expulsion of 6 kids that may or may not have had anything to do with this, but at least from the police investigation were not directly involved. According to the student conduct policy, anyone who called another student an asshole or helped a friend write a paper (not sold them a paper, but helped them write a paper) could be expelled. That's an awfully low bar to end a kids chance to lose their future. There should be at least some proof to go to this extreme.
 

caliGopher said:
might be because we've actually investigated it?

Seriously, something happened, we don't know what, and probably never will. That said the EOAA report didn't look to resolve this situation, it looked to further an agenda. The accuser nor the players are ultimately served by this BS. If the four named in the police report were expelled, the accused are expelled, the accuser has some sense of safety on campus, and is not responsible for the expulsion of 6 kids that may or may not have had anything to do with this, but at least from the police investigation were not directly involved. According to the student conduct policy, anyone who called another student an asshole or helped a friend write a paper (not sold them a paper, but helped them write a paper) could be expelled. That's an awfully low bar to end a kids chance to lose their future. There should be at least some proof to go to this extreme.
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I wouldn't call anything anyone has done here investigated.

I'm not a fan of the process, I've got serious concerns about universities acting as justice systems... but I don't think anyone has done much in the way of investigated. Not in any original way.
 


Spoofin said:
Agreed. These cases should be heard separately and be allotted the time each needs. Yet another crock in this whole system. So very unimpressive.


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The fact that their cases will all be heard at the same time is the biggest farce in this whole kangaroo court process.
 

tato2001 said:
I honestly don't see how anyone can say this 'appeals process' is anything but an absolute farce. Even if one is convinced all is well and fine with the way Title IX is implemented and has already concluded that these guys are guilty, how in the flipping world is two days of 9 hours of appeals, one guy after the other, even REMOTELY fair? You honestly think the evidence/testimony of the poor schmuck getting his turn at 8:00 PM on Friday night is going to get the same level of thoughtful consideration as the guy that leads it off? No flipping way. They are literally doing little more than going through the motions and checking the box. "Yep, gave them their appeal."

Slowly the details are coming out that show the HUGE flaws in this process. University personnel administering line-ups, and now marathon 'appeals' sessions. This is EXACTLY what Title IX opponents feared this ridiculous process would lead to. Absurd.
Click to expand...

Actually maybe some of the kids getting railroaded and the resultant high profile lawsuits (which I think have a good chance of being expensive for the U) may give critics of Title IX enough ammunition to affect change in the system?


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There is no attempt to determine truth or justice as part of this. It is simply to serve a political end. The sad part is that those invested in the system don't even bother defending it as a way to get to the truth. The circles they run in and the kind of people that support them care little for such ideals. They care about agendas and the furthering of their own careers at the expense of truth. If it means a couple of people lives get trampled on so be it.
 

Vandy said:
The fact that their cases will all be heard at the same time is the biggest farce in this whole kangaroo court process.
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I thought I read somewhere that the players are not supposed to have contact with each other immediately before or during the process. How is that even possible if all 10 hearings are happening at the same time. Do they each get put in sound proof cubicles? Get blindfolded and gagged when they need to get walked to the restroom?

While I do think they could have some type of a common evidence and questioning period, each player should get to tell his story in private, separate from the other players.

I have no issue with them considering the testimony from all 10 when coming to a conclusion on each individual player (9 of 10 say X but 1 says Y), but if they don't allow each player to have an individual private hearing then that to me is inexcusable.

Besides, why would they want them all in the same hearing? Wouldn't that allow them to change their stories so they match???
 



tato2001 said:
I honestly don't see how anyone can say this 'appeals process' is anything but an absolute farce. Even if one is convinced all is well and fine with the way Title IX is implemented and has already concluded that these guys are guilty, how in the flipping world is two days of 9 hours of appeals, one guy after the other, even REMOTELY fair? You honestly think the evidence/testimony of the poor schmuck getting his turn at 8:00 PM on Friday night is going to get the same level of thoughtful consideration as the guy that leads it off? No flipping way. They are literally doing little more than going through the motions and checking the box. "Yep, gave them their appeal."

Slowly the details are coming out that show the HUGE flaws in this process. University personnel administering line-ups, and now marathon 'appeals' sessions. This is EXACTLY what Title IX opponents feared this ridiculous process would lead to. Absurd.
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Kangaroo Courts. Many journalists, nationwide, warned about this process years ago (Duke case), but UM wouldn't listen.
 

Lakeville Goldy said:
I thought I read somewhere that the players are not supposed to have contact with each other immediately before or during the process. How is that even possible if all 10 hearings are happening at the same time. Do they each get put in sound proof cubicles? Get blindfolded and gagged when they need to get walked to the restroom?

While I do think they could have some type of a common evidence and questioning period, each player should get to tell his story in private, separate from the other players.

I have no issue with them considering the testimony from all 10 when coming to a conclusion on each individual player (9 of 10 say X but 1 says Y), but if they don't allow each player to have an individual private hearing then that to me is inexcusable.

Besides, why would they want them all in the same hearing? Wouldn't that allow them to change their stories so they match???
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I don't think they are all at the same time, they go one right after the other. Which is maybe even worse. It's impossible that one testimony won't impact the interpretation of another.

The whole question of the hearing committee's fatigue and mental exhaustion aside, imagine a scenario where two guys were accused of murder, and the same judge and jury heard both their cases in sequence. The testimony of the first would most definitely impact the proceedings for the second. In fact, he could present a scenario that incriminates the second guy, which then would completely bias the jury. And of course, the second guy wouldn't have a fair chance to refute it because it was presented when he wasn't even part of the proceedings.

In court cases, I believe they either try them together (same time, same jury), or separately in completely different proceedings.

Another reason this is just a joke.
 

Oregon Gopher said:
Actually maybe some of the kids getting railroaded and the resultant high profile lawsuits (which I think have a good chance of being expensive for the U) may give critics of Title IX enough ammunition to affect change in the system?


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There's no doubt the 2011 interpretation of Title IX and the OCR/EOAA mandates will be rolled back by Trump's appointee. Unfortunately it will be seen as a political move rather than a return to sanity. One would rather moderate democrats/ liberals were standing up for these kids and liberal values but the party has been hijacked by emotional arguments based in fear. Sad, as Trump would probably say.
 

CurveballJesus said:
Doogie's scoops podcast offered a tidbit that I did not know. Apparently Reggie Lynch had the EOAA recommend harsh penalties for violations of the Student Code of Conduct (shocking, I know) but was overturned by the 3 person panel that the 10 players are going before now. Different panel of course.
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I think the panel is 4 people. Only half (2) have to be in favor the discipline for it to stand.

I proposed some time back a few easy fixes to counter the low preponderance threshold. First, needs to be actual due process, meaning the appeal happens before any recommended discipline is applied; second, make it a panel of 5 with one outside member; and third, make the panel have to be unanimous in favor of the discipline order for it to be applied.
 



PMWinSTP said:
I think the panel is 4 people. Only half (2) have to be in favor the discipline for it to stand.

I proposed some time back a few easy fixes to counter the low preponderance threshold. First, needs to be actual due process, meaning the appeal happens before any recommended discipline is applied; second, make it a panel of 5 with one outside member; and third, make the panel have to be unanimous in favor of the discipline order for it to be applied.
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Doogie said it was 3 people and one is Somalian female
 

PMWinSTP said:
I think the panel is 4 people. Only half (2) have to be in favor the discipline for it to stand.

I proposed some time back a few easy fixes to counter the low preponderance threshold. First, needs to be actual due process, meaning the appeal happens before any recommended discipline is applied; second, make it a panel of 5 with one outside member; and third, make the panel have to be unanimous in favor of the discipline order for it to be applied.
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So a tie goes against the accused. The default assumption is guilt.

This university is a complete wreck.
 

TruthSeeker said:
So a tie goes against the accused. The default assumption is guilt.

This university is a complete wreck.
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Scary part is most schools have it set up like this...Stanford probably has the most fair set up.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
Doogie said it was 3 people and one is Somalian female
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This jogged my memory...CH 5 reported it is a panel of five with one being a student. It is five, so three need to agree with the discipline for it to stand. Still not great.
 


PMWinSTP said:
This jogged my memory...CH 5 reported it is a panel of five with one being a student. It is five, so three need to agree with the discipline for it to stand. Still not great.
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These are kinda serious issues at play.... so include a random student....
 

Here is the list of potential panel members. Interestingly it was revised Jan 3 and the three co-chairs have been reduced to one which may, just may, increase the players odds.

http://usenate.umn.edu/memberships/ccsb.pdf

I'm not particularly hopeful because the affirmative consent rule, the very broad definition of sexual assault used by the U (e.g. Standing at the open door even for a moment is sexual harassment), and the preponderance standard. That, and some people tend to be wildly irrational about these issues and their pre-existing bias and fear is too much to overcome. I don't like that they have a student board member. That seems like a situation ripe for manipulation.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Here is the list of potential panel members. Interestingly it was revised Jan 3 and the three co-chairs have been reduced to one which may, just may, increase the players odds.

http://usenate.umn.edu/memberships/ccsb.pdf

I'm not particularly hopeful because the affirmative consent rule, the very broad definition of sexual assault used by the U (e.g. Standing at the open door even for a moment is sexual harassment), and the preponderance standard. That, and some people tend to be wildly irrational about these issues and their pre-existing bias and fear is too much to overcome. I don't like that they have a student board member. That seems like a situation ripe for manipulation.
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Yeah, I agree, might move it a little on the fairness scale. Honestly, being on this panel has to be a pretty thankless job.
 

So is this an all or nothing situation or can the panel maybe suggest a lesser punishment for any of the players? So for example, if a player was recommended to be expelled, can they decide the punishment should be suspension instead?
 

GophersInIowa said:
So is this an all or nothing situation or can the panel maybe suggest a lesser punishment for any of the players? So for example, if a player was recommended to be expelled, can they decide the punishment should be suspension instead?
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I believe they can recommend a less harsh penalty if they so please.
 


I don't think this has been posted yet:

Family of suspended Gophers player speaks out on Fox 9 -

The ten student-athletes and their attorneys get a total of 18 hours over the next couple days to make their case.

"I just know my son, Antonio Shenault, and I know he's not that type of person,” said Kenneth Shenault, a father of one of the suspended players.

Antonio Shenault's parents are ready for a fight.

"This is our name. I'm not associated with any sexual misconduct. Not my name. Not Shenault. Absolutely not,” he said.

Antonio, a sophomore, is one of 10 players who will go before a university administrative panel on Thursday. This comes from an investigation into an alleged sexual assault last September that was never criminally prosecuted.

The 10 players have all been suspended from the team, but face a range of more severe school discipline from outright expulsion to one-year bans down to Antonio's punishment - a year of probation.

His mom is disgusted by the process.

Full story -> http://www.fox9.com/news/231756071-story
 

The attorneys for the student-athletes had wanted to handle each case individually, but that won't happen.

Here is a quote from the article above. If that is true, if these students are being forced by the U to have their appeal heard together, that is absolutely outrageous. It is a total miscarriage of justice. It is also proof that the investigation has zero interest in the truth.

Do you know how these things work in situations where people aren't playing court? They would WANT to divide these students for obvious reasons. Let's say there are 5 people who were being charged with a crime (5 of them did it and 1 of them helped cover it up). The BEST way to get these people talking is to keep their trials separate and watch them turn on each other. It is the most common tactic because it is one of the best ways to find the truth.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
The attorneys for the student-athletes had wanted to handle each case individually, but that won't happen.

Here is a quote from the article above. If that is true, if these students are being forced by the U to have their appeal heard together, that is absolutely outrageous. It is a total miscarriage of justice. <b>It is also proof that the investigation has zero interest in the truth.</b>

Do you know how these things work in situations where people aren't playing court? They would WANT to divide these students for obvious reasons. Let's say there are 5 people who were being charged with a crime (5 of them did it and 1 of them helped cover it up). The BEST way to get these people talking is to keep their trials separate and watch them turn on each other. It is the most common tactic because it is one of the best ways to find the truth.
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So true and very sad. Unfortunately, the bolded part is not the goal. A very messed up system, to say the least.


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The more information that comes out about this entire process, does anybody still think it was a poor decision to boycott? This whole situation is serving nobody's best interests.
 

Wow that makes me sick kinda. To group say a player that wasn't there with one that had sex with individual. I can't even imagine if one of these guys were my kids to be lumped together. Yuck
 

60's Guy said:
The more information that comes out about this entire process, does anybody still think it was a poor decision to boycott? This whole situation is serving nobody's best interests.
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It was a terrible decision to boycott. No way you can win that in the court of public opinion. Regardless of legal/illegal or somewhat common or not behavior to run the train on a girl, outside of football fans who are obviously biased towards the players most people think this is seriously bad behavior.
 

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