Wow: Kirk Ciarrocca Takes OC Job at Rutgers

[Gophers_4life]

You are now talking about hypothetically firing the guy

Entirely your hypothetical.

You brought it up to try to make it seem like Simon failing in 23 would be (far) worse than Sanford failing in 21.

I just disproved it.

 

[Some guy]

Seems you're agreeing exactly with the point I just made, which nullifies your argument that being co-OC the last three years can be held against him.

I am not holding co-OC against him.
I am saying he doesn’t have the resume to be a big ten coordinator and I’ll be disappointed by the hire if it’s him but hopefully wrong.

There is nothing about him that says he should be the OC. He has no experience of success at OC. He has experience of mediocrity as co-OC. He has a 3 year drought of developing good wideouts as a position coach.
I would rather hire someone with experience of success than a guy with no experience and the little he has being average at best.

 

[Tucker32]

- position coach
- help form the game plan
- call the plays during the game.

One of these things is not like the others .....

There is no comparison between Rossi and Simon in experience prior to move up. Rossi had been the defensive coordinator at Maine and Rutgers prior to being appointed by PJ. Simon has no coordinator experience.

 

[Some guy]

There is no comparison between Rossi and Simon in experience prior to move up. Rossi had been the defensive coordinator at Maine and Rutgers prior to being appointed by PJ. Simon has no coordinator experience.

And in his time as Co-OC/WR coach the team hasn’t been able to throw the ball

 

[Gophers_4life]

There is no comparison between Rossi and Simon in experience prior to move up. Rossi had been the defensive coordinator at Maine and Rutgers prior to being appointed by PJ. Simon has no coordinator experience.

OK, you got me on that bit. I forgot that he was DC at those places prior. If you're going to bring up being DC at Maine, you might as well bring up being DC at Theil College too, which he was for three years.

He was DC for two seasons at Rutgers, their first two years in the Big Ten, and their defense was horrible. Really not much different than KC's two year run at Rutgers.


The anti-Simon crew here would hold that against him if it was Simon who had such experience. But here, that's a feather in Rossi's cap.

OK.


Simon's experience is the 2019 season's Outback Bowl against Auburn, officially, and unofficially maybe some games at the end of 2021.

I'm willing to take that for 2023, because it's a tough schedule where we will likely not be favored in at least six games, maybe more.

If it goes south, then that's that.

 

[Gophers_4life]

And in his time as Co-OC/WR coach the team hasn’t been able to throw the ball

Simon's fault that KC called bad passing plays

Simon's fault that Tanner threw the ball behind receivers

Simon's fault that Fleck dictated playing MBS, who struggles catching at times

 

[Some guy]

Simon's fault that KC called bad passing plays

Didn’t say that. I said he doesn’t have enough experience and success to merit giving him a big ten coordinator job.

Simon had nothing to do with the offense, it’s all KC’s
-you
Simon clearly is the best guy for the job
-also you




Either Simon had a lot to do with the offense /passing game and he isn’t very good
Or Simon didn’t have a lot to do with the offense and he doesn’t have the experience.

Take your pick.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

And in his time as Co-OC/WR coach the team hasn’t been able to throw the ball

I'm shocked at how, for some, this doesn't seem to count for much; the fact that we have seen very, very little evidence to this point that Simon does his primary role (WR coach) at anything near an elite level.

 

[CentralGopher]

I am not holding co-OC against him.
I am saying he doesn’t have the resume to be a big ten coordinator and I’ll be disappointed by the hire if it’s him but hopefully wrong.

There is nothing about him that says he should be the OC. He has no experience of success at OC. He has experience of mediocrity as co-OC. He has a 3 year drought of developing good wideouts as a position coach.
I would rather hire someone with experience of success than a guy with no experience and the little he has being average at best.

Same here. Nothing against the guy but I’d rather go with someone with the resume than trying to catch lightning in a bottle. I’d rather not always be the developmental program for both players and coaches. PJ was hired to win games, not to develop coaches.

 

[Some guy]

I'm shocked at how, for some, this doesn't seem to count for much; the fact that we have seen very, very little evidence to this point that Simon does his primary role (WR coach) at anything near an elite level.

And the only argument that diminishes this fact would be that it wasn’t really his offense at all and it was all the OCs

But if that’s the case why are we mentioning his name any more than the Brian Callahan or Greg harbaugh Jr

 

[MaxyJR1]

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

In 2022 that would put him in the top 10 nationally of highest paid assistants in the country. I like KC, I think he did a good job while he was here, but I was also surprised when he came back for a 2nd time.

I don't think he's worth being one of the highest paid assistants in the country. I would love to see PJ bring in an OC with some experience from the outside who can still operate a more innovative run first offense with the ability to throw more than what we have seen over the last 3 years.

 

[Gophergrandpa]

An OC for a Power 5 team serves multiple functions: He designs the offense and calls the plays, of course. On many teams (including the Gophers under PJ), he is also serves the QB coach, responsible for QB development. And, the prototype OC is also supposed to have and a coaching pedigree and recruiting skills sufficient to convince gifted offensive players to commit to his program. It is possible that Simon could handle the first criteria well. But perhaps PJ, and maybe even Simon himself, are unsure of Simon's ability to develop our QBs or to serve as a realistic recruiting beacon for top offensive talent. We could always get a separate QB coach, I suppose. It will be interesting to see which way PJ goes on this one.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Nothing against the guy but I’d rather go with someone with the resume than trying to catch lightning in a bottle.

Even though they did it with Rossi? Or you're saying that wasn't catching lightning in a bottle. Because ...?

I’d rather not always be the developmental program for both players and coaches. PJ was hired to win games, not to develop coaches.

- Rossi has left?
- PJ himself says that he enjoys and wants to develop coaches. Sure, that could be part of his shtick that he says when coaches leave, but I tend to believe him there

- What do actually mean that it would be developing a coach? Why isn't Simon already developed?

 

[Gophers_4life]

Points that have been overlooked (granted I have no read every post on the thread), I think:

- we don't want to change offensive system. Most of you know what happened when Brewster did this every year.
- a riff on this point: spring ball is rapidly approaching, and preparations for it are probably under way, along with recruiting, or will be when recruiting is done .... sure, there is time, but if we do a national open search for a brand new OC from the outside, that is going to eat up into valuable time that could have been spent on other important things

- Athan -- if he's going to be forced to learn a new offensive system, and they're going to deny Simon for a second time and cast him aside, the guy who likely recruited his brother if not also himself .... is he going to change his tune after spring ball?
- riffing on that -- indeed, Simon himself could decide enough is enough and look elsewhere, and try to bring Athan (and Dino) with him.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

Big if true.

 

[Panthadad2]

An OC for a Power 5 team serves multiple functions: He designs the offense and calls the plays, of course. On many teams (including the Gophers under PJ), he is also serves the QB coach, responsible for QB development. And, the prototype OC is also supposed to have and a coaching pedigree and recruiting skills sufficient to convince gifted offensive players to commit to his program. It is possible that Simon could handle the first criteria well. But perhaps PJ, and maybe even Simon himself, are unsure of Simon's ability to develop our QBs or to serve as a realistic recruiting beacon for top offensive talent. We could always get a separate QB coach, I suppose. It will be interesting to see which way PJ goes on this one.

I don't think KC was ever much of a recruiter. His recruitment resume' on 247 is pretty short compared to Simon's. I get the sense his strength was Xs and Os and development.

 

[Dave H]

Then stop replying to anyone who has an opinion that they think Simon will do well. As you said nobody knows, it's just their opinion.

I will reply to whomever I want thanks. I am replying to a specific poster because their logic is beyond flawed. Don't like it, don't read it.

Would you feel better if at the end of every post I said "This post is not about whether I like Simon or not"? Wait...I don't care.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Nah, you have a personal stick up your rear end about me in particular.

God knows why, but you do you.

 

[CentralGopher]

Even though they did it with Rossi? Or you're saying that wasn't catching lightning in a bottle. Because ...?

- Rossi has left?
- PJ himself says that he enjoys and wants to develop coaches. Sure, that could be part of his shtick that he says when coaches leave, but I tend to believe him there

- What do actually mean that it would be developing a coach? Why isn't Simon already developed?

As pointed out by myself and others before, Rossi was both a coordinator in previous stops and had a multi game audition to prove himself so comparing him to Simon isn’t valid.

 

[Dave H]

Simon has been co-OC for three years. There's more to it than being the primary play-caller for one game.

That is fair, but do we know that he has had anything to do with the planning of the offense? And is that a positive or a negative since we all agree the offense was not great this year?

See that is why I wonder why people want him so badly...all the positives are offset by equal negatives. (also why I don't really hate the idea either) If we assume he did more than we know at practice and in meetings and planning then he gets painted with the same brush KC does and no one seems to be giving him high marks. (even before he left again) Now maybe he was the lone voice in the wilderness looking to change things up (for our sake I hope so especially if we move him up) but I am not sure being the Co-OC for the last 3 years is something that will look great on a resume based on our offensive numbers. All we can do is hope he has a different philosophy and Fleck trusts him to make the needed adjustments.

Honest question: if Simon didn't have local ties and had been coach somewhere else for a while never here and had this resume would you want him as the OC? All things being equal is he the top of your list or even close? To me no. I wouldn't hate the hire, and I would give him all the support possible but I would be skeptical and I would bet most of this board would as well. That is why I question the idea. That isn't me hating on him like some people seem to think, it is a legitimate question. We aren't some G5 squad looking to find the next big thing, we are a Big Ten team. This isn't some position coach job like WD just got hired for, this is the friggin OC. There is a lot at stake...

I can get behind the idea of hiring him to keep a sense of consistency and loyalty but lets not pretend this is not a risky proposition. I think people have a right to think we should be looking for the best candidate whether internal or external.

 

[Panthadad2]

That is fair, but do we know that he has had anything to do with the planning of the offense? And is that a positive or a negative since we all agree the offense was not great this year?

See that is why I wonder why people want him so badly...all the positives are offset by equal negatives. (also why I don't really hate the idea either) If we assume he did more than we know at practice and in meetings and planning then he gets painted with the same brush KC does and no one seems to be giving him high marks. (even before he left again) Now maybe he was the lone voice in the wilderness looking to change things up (for our sake I hope so especially if we move him up) but I am not sure being the Co-OC for the last 3 years is something that will look great on a resume based on our offensive numbers. All we can do is hope he has a different philosophy and Fleck trusts him to make the needed adjustments.

Honest question: if Simon didn't have local ties and had been coach somewhere else for a while never here and had this resume would you want him as the OC? All things being equal is he the top of your list or even close? To me no. I wouldn't hate the hire, and I would give him all the support possible but I would be skeptical and I would bet most of this board would as well. That is why I question the idea. That isn't me hating on him like some people seem to think, it is a legitimate question. We aren't some G5 squad looking to find the next big thing, we are a Big Ten team. This isn't some position coach job like WD just got hired for, this is the friggin OC. There is a lot at stake...

I can get behind the idea of hiring him to keep a sense of consistency and loyalty but lets not pretend this is not a risky proposition. I think people have a right to think we should be looking for the best candidate whether internal or external.

I have no idea. I'm not on that team and have no idea if Simon is ready to be the head OC. Thing is, you can't just discount that Simon is a Minnesota and Upper Midwest guy. There is value to that. In the end, only PJ knows where this heads.

 

[Panthadad2]

Looking back, Mason had two co-OCs on his great offenses in the early 2000s. Mitch Browning and Tony Petersen. Petersen was the passing game coordinator and QB coach. I wonder if PJ decides to go that route instead of having one senior OC position.

 

[Gophers_4life]

As pointed out by myself and others before, Rossi was both a coordinator in previous stops and had a multi game audition to prove himself so comparing him to Simon isn’t valid.

So you're saying we did not catch lightning in a bottle with Rossi, and that we were not a developmental platform for Rossi, because:

- he had been DC at a DIII school, at Maine (FCS), and for the first two years that Rutgers was in the Big Ten (and was such a horrible defense that Rutgers fans wanted him gone, and laughed at us for hiring him)
- he got to be interim DC for three regular season games against: Purdue at home (Win), NW at home (loss), and at Wisconsin (win), the lowly Quick Lane Bowl (win) against a down and out GT team whose coach retired after that game

All of that is feather after feather after feather in his cap.

While Simon on the other hand:
- interim OC for the Outback Bowl (ever heard of that one? It's pretty big) against a top rated SEC team (win)
- unconfirmed but reasonable speculation that he may have been calling plays at the end of the 2021 season, explaining the sudden turnaround

Nope, negate that, doesn't count, meaningless.


I don't know.

I'm willing to meet you half way on this. But I suspect you won't accept. You want it to be all or nothing.

 

[Great Plains Gopher]

Now that we have an arm at QB, get an OC who will have the ball thrown to running backs, tight ends, as well as wide-outs, add some misdirection, screen passes, slants, building the short and medium passing game with play action for longer stuff. Get some variety and trickery into the passing game - even if the running game remains between the tackles.

 

[Dave H]

Bolded: that we know about.

And when you say "coached", the more correct thing is "called the plays". Agree that, as far as the public knows, that was just the bowl game against Auburn.

However, Simon (and Callahan, and the whole offensive staff for that matter) are always integral, every year, every week, in forming the game plan. The OC doesn't go off into a cave, have a fever dream, and emerge with the game plan.

In 2021, the offense suddenly got much better starting with the Iowa game.
In 2022, the offense suddenly got much better in the Wisconsin game.

A person, me in particular perhaps, will draw the conclusions that they want to make. I won't ask you to entertain them in the slightest, but hey, it's a free, anonymous, internet message board. YMMV

Not for me...I think you can guess my (first) name.

That is a fair point.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

Disappointed to hear. Hard to spin this as a positive. At least it was for more money. My JV opinion is the mercifully rare struggles this year had more to do with a lack of luck, lack of key playmakers and the ultra conservative approach nursing leads, which seems to be a PJ thing. Statistically the team did pretty well although it was hard to watch at times. Not KC I suspect.

Back to the drawing board. Wisconsin hired an air raid disciple so it will be interesting if PJ’s Ferentz-curious conservative coaching tics will limit the pool of interested candidates.

 

[Dave H]

Yep, that is true.

If I had a magic wand, I would have forced Fleck to fire Sanford in the middle of the 2021 season, and promoted Simon to interim OC, in exactly the same fashion.

That's what should have happened.

Fleck wouldn't do that to his personal friend Sanford, so we are where we are now.

That would have been the better move long term for sure, not sure it would have been that season which is why he probably didn't do it. The Rossi move worked because Rossi simplified the defense from Smith's overcoaching. (if reports are to be believed) I think the offense would have likely gotten a bit more complex (I mean we would have doubled our route tree just adding slants! ) and that might have taken a while to make work.

Its too bad cause we would definitely know more at this point.

 

[CentralGopher]

So you're saying we did not catch lightning in a bottle with Rossi, and that we were not a developmental platform for Rossi, because:

- he had been DC at a DIII school, at Maine (FCS), and for the first two years that Rutgers was in the Big Ten (and was such a horrible defense that Rutgers fans wanted him gone, and laughed at us for hiring him)
- he got to be interim DC for three regular season games against: Purdue at home (Win), NW at home (loss), and at Wisconsin (win), the lowly Quick Lane Bowl (win) against a down and out GT team whose coach retired after that game

All of that is feather after feather after feather in his cap.

While Simon on the other hand:
- interim OC for the Outback Bowl (ever heard of that one? It's pretty big) against a top rated SEC team (win)
- unconfirmed but reasonable speculation that he may have been calling plays at the end of the 2021 season, explaining the sudden turnaround

Nope, negate that, doesn't count, meaningless.


I don't know.

I'm willing to meet you half way on this. But I suspect you won't accept. You want it to be all or nothing.

I’m saying, it’s not a comparable situation both due to resume and where we are as a program right now.

 

[Gophers_4life]

I’m saying, it’s not a comparable situation both due to resume and where we are as a program right now.

Nothing is 100% comparable.

I'll take 76.3% comparable.