In Coach Haskin's first year (86-87), we continued to pack the barn with addition of Burton, Coffey and Shik who added excitement but few B10 wins (2-16). In Monson's (mostly Molinari's) last year, there were still a lot of fans in the Barn with prospects of a new coach and new Westbrook, Damian Johnson and even Jamal Abu-Shamala. I love Murphy but it will be just as bad. Is there any reason to attend games this year other than the fact we already pAid and there is no resale value? Fire this pathetic Coach ASAP!
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Better go back and check the attendance records - we were not packing the Barn in Clem's first few years here. We averaged about 11,500 paid attendance his first two years - which we will likely do this year again. In Monson's low years we averaged 10,500.
bemidjigopher
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Lol none of those guys did squat until tubby was coach just terrible effort all around.
Here's the facts from Gophersports.com about attendance. In Coach Haskin's first season, 86-87, 12,439 average and 16,104 high(before remodel). In 2006-07, Monson/Molinari season, 11,770 average and 13,820 high. Are those numbers possible this year? It's your opinion whether Willie Burton, Coffey, Shik, Westbrook, Damian Johnson and Shamu had potential when they stArted. Other than Murphy, who has that potential on this roster?
GophersInIowa
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I think your memory is a little off. Nate Mason certainly has been just as good if not better than Westbrook, Damian Johnson, and Abu-Shamala at this point in their careers. Johnson averaged 1.6 points a game as a freshman and Westbrook 3.5. They both ended up being good players but they didn't show a lot right away like you are saying.
No offense to Abu-Shamala, but if you considered him a good potential guy then certainly all the current freshman need to be in that category as well.
Blackhammer
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X2 There was talk of Damian leaving. People have a way of rewriting the past Give Richard a fair shot,at least another year possibly two if things are going in the right direction. . There is enough potential here and on the way to be somewhat hopeful.It is not time to start over .
You are citing the attendance for Big 10 games only. I gave you all games- in 86-87- it was 11.5K- same the next year roughly.
Murphy is significantly better than Burton was his first year. Shik was nothing the first year. Coffey was tough but couldn't make a layup. It took two year for any of those guys to show their potential.
ruppertflywheel
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Westbrook will always be dear to my heart. He beat Becky singlehandedly twice. He was also the guy you wanted at the free throw line in crunch time.
bemidjigopher
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Not as a frosh. Which proves that guys can develop if you give them time
Ok, let's set the lowest possible bar for Pitino to not have the worst team B-10 record and worst attendance in modern Gopher history. Coach Haskin's first year had a B10 record of 2-16 and average overall attendance average of 11,594, B10 average of 12,439 (Per gophersports.com). So far the average attendance is 10,186 (counting the no-show season ticket holders). There needs to be an average of 12,825 for the B10 season to avoid a worst attendance record overall. Let's see if there is that much fan excitement for this coach's team?
GophersInIowa
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You initially said that even in very bad years in the past, "we continued to pack the barn". People have pointed out that this is false.
Then you've said that in those bad years at least there were good prospects on the team. People have pointed out that many of the examples you brought up didn't do a whole lot of anything their first year or two.
We get the point you're trying to make. You don't have to make things up to make your point.
All the attendance data are from http://www.gophersports.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/williams-arena-attendance.html . As I said, it's anyone's opinion whether players in their first year will develop well. The players who I cited developed well regardless of a good freshman season or not. We'll see from attendance these next 8 games, whether Gopher fans see the potential of Pitino's team to be competitive in the Big Ten in the future.
GophersInIowa
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I guess we just have different definitions of "pack the barn". I assumed you meant just about every game was a sellout. The numbers you posted prove that wasn't the case at all.
ethomasp31
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Good Grief....the big difference was that in Clem Haskins first year the Gophers were 2-16 and by year three we were in the Sweet 16....by year four we almost made the Final 4. Pitino started out winning the NIT with Tubby's players and has been on a major downward trend since. Some people are hopeful that we make the NCAA next year in year 4, but in my opinion that will not happen. By year three and four for Haskins Gopher basketball was KING in Minnesota....in year three with Pitino there is just apathy for Gopher basketball.
Even Tubby....who went to a program that was in a much worse situation than the one Pitino took over in Minnesota....is having a lot of success. I think the reason people are upset is because in year three I don't think anyone expected us to be in this position....and we were hoping we would be trending upward not downward. I know....we have a great recruiting class coming in....but I'm pretty sure that is what we heard last year (and the year before) also. The only reason we are trending up is because I don't think we could trend down from where we are right now.
Even Tubby....who went to a program that was in a much worse situation than the one Pitino took over in Minnesota....is having a lot of success. I think the reason people are upset is because in year three I don't think anyone expected us to be in this position....and we were hoping we would be trending upward not downward. I know....we have a great recruiting class coming in....but I'm pretty sure that is what we heard last year (and the year before) also. The only reason we are trending up is because I don't think we could trend down from where we are right now.
ethomasp31
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Do you want to compare Clem Haskin's year three attendance with Pitino's? I've been a a gopher basketball fan ever since I saw Michael Thompson and Flip Sanders playing at the U in the mid 70's....and I have never seen such apathy in Gopher basketball as there is right now.
I agree with you that, normally, a program shouldn't be trending down in year 3. In the present case, I think most close followers expected the team to be worse this year because of decisions that were made in the off season. I'm not upset because the team is worse than last year; I'm upset because the team is worse than the low end of my expectations. This team could win only 10 games (possibly even 8 or 9). There was enough softness in the non-conference schedule and in the lower half of the Big Ten conference that a team could be expected to do better than that even in a rebuilding year. More discouraging is the play on both ends of the court. The defense continues to be burned in similar ways game after game. On offense, we've also seemed to learn nothing from our defeats.
Finally, people cite player development as a reason to watch this year, but Pitino's record on player development isn't very good. For those who have played two years (or almost two years) under Pitino, only Joey, seems to have improved much during his time. Buggs has improved some but not as much as a player with his abilities could have. Morris, Mathieu, and Elliot all deteriorated in their second years under Pitino. So far, Mason seems a bit worse than he was last year. Dre Hollins and Mo didn't show much improvement from their first to second years either. Gaston looks no better than he did last year. Bakary looked better at the beginning of the season but seems to have suffered a significant regression.
I agree with those who say that Pitino probably is guaranteed at least one more year, but the evidence I've seen to date makes me doubt his ability to achieve enough improvement next year to deserve a fifth year.
GophersInIowa
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I agree with pretty much all of this. I'm not sure too many people thought this year's sophomore class was a great recruiting class. Solid but not great. I think we are seeing the benefits of last year's recruiting class. Murphy is a stud. The others seem to have potential and will hopefully keep getting better with experience.
I'll admit, I almost missed today's game because I thought it was tomorrow for some reason. That never happens. I have my doubts with Pitino, but I think we'll know a little more next year.
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I have never, ever been a "fire the coach" kind of guy. Rarely do I think that's the answer.
But I know one thing; I have never ever watched as LITTLE Gopher basketball as I have this season. I used to plan the day around it, record the game, clear out the house sometimes. This year I've watched about 4-5 games.
MaxyJR1
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Are people really comparing Haskins to Pitino? 1986 to 2015? A guy who had to cheat to keep players eligible? I like how Pitino is quietly building the program almost in the way of a football rebuild. Doesn't seem to be cutting corners. I will judge based on next year when he gets his next class and two transfers on the court. King is a hard worker, but a liability to what Pitino really wants to do IMO.
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gopherlaney
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Give the man time, let him get 4 under his belt before we start ranting. Quite frankly this thread is ridiculous.
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bemidjigopher
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How was McNeil a high rusk. He had no record. I think you're confusing high risk with hind sight
Pitino should be given until this current Sophomore class graduates. That was his first "real" recruiting class. I love how much effort that King plays with but on a good team he is your 7th or 8th guy. Morris and Buggs(I know he wasn't his recruit) drive me nuts with shot selection and being in a daze on D at times which ends up being a momentum killer. Realistically both Konate and Diedhiou should have been red-shirted. That being said I think there has been progress at least with Konate were if it continues he could be a real solid player as a senior. I think those two along with Mason were at least a solid class. The freshman class I think has the chance to be very good. The class coming in next year is supposed to be solid once again. I told friends and family that this year was going to be tough but we would probably upset someone and I'll stick by that. The job of the coaching staff is to put the team in the best position to win. I thought the game plan was good. Yesterday with 14ish minutes left we cut the lead to 42-41, get a stop and were coming down with a chance to take the lead and continue the momentum that we had and what happened? One pass and Morris puts up a 3 that we could have got anytime during the shot clock and we had nobody underneath to rebound, and boom its 51-41. The team fought back tho and still had a chance. I know its hard for us Gopher fans but I really do think we are in need of patience. Lets get the young guys experience and build for next year and beyond. On another note my neighbor was telling me that Justin Gaard was saying on the radio that Pitino or his wife doesn't like it here and he will be gone in the next 2 years regardless. Anyone hear anything on that?
Costa Rican Gopher
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By all accounts McNeil was a model citizen until his incident, no way you can list him as a guy Pitino "cut corners" with. Lofton is a legitimate example, but he had never done anything criminal & was a local kid who wanted to come home. He was sent packing at the first sign of trouble. Not exactly an outlaw program.
Costa Rican Gopher
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Pitino was damned if he did and damned if he didn't when he came to the U. He was saddled with extremely mediocre talent & most of that talent had another couple years of eligibility. I would have preferred he cut Dre Hollins, Mo Walker, Oto, Elliot, Buggs et al loose and just started from scratch, but he spent two years trying to plug those square pegs into round holes. What I'm getting at, is that this is essentially his first year with his recruits and they're very young, or inexperienced. Thankfully Buggs appears to be done and Morris/Joey are taking more of a a back seat to the younger guys. As I've said from the get-go, this season is about player development, not wins and losses.
Dorsey looks like he's progressing and will be a very good 4 year player. Mason is being game planned for and having the other teams best defender on him all the time, so he's had struggles, but he's handled that pretty well and has been forced into a bit of a leadership role that he may or may not be ready for. Overall, I'm happy with him & think he's also a very good 4 year player for us. McBrayer isn't as far along offensively, but does a nice job defensively, is very athletic and I see no reason to think he won't be a good player for us either. Ahmad Gilbert has shown some nice things lately, especially his understanding of the game and I'd much rather have him on the floor than Buggs. Murphy is going to get even better once he learns how to box out, put a hit on opposing players, use his strength rather than just out-jumping people for rebounds & play team defense. We really are just seeing the tip of his iceberg of talent. Bakary is getting there, slowly but surely. I'm sure Pitino would have loved to get Jalil Okafor, but what we could actually get was Bakary. Bakary needs constant basketball reps to up his court IQ and he needs to hit the weights hard. Especially his lower body. That said, I think Bakary has the potential to be a good player. Gaston might be a miss, but bigs tend to develop late. Maybe the light will go one for him at some point? If not, then he gets stuck behind Lynch & Bakary is is probably encouraged to move on. If that happens, we have the opportunity to recruit over him.
I don't even expect much next season. I figure all the new faces will take time to gel, but by season's end we should see it all coming together & perhaps even make a surprise run in the tourney? Fitz was very good as a Freshman at A & M, and if he can return to that form as a more mature player, we may have gotten a real steal. I forget the source, but have heard him referred to as the best player on the team in practices. Lynch will not wow us with his touch and skill, but he will provide a defensive presence and physicality that we are desperately missing right now. He should be a big upgrade if he can stay out of foul trouble. We also add Coffey, our first real superstar potential player, Michael Hurt a shooter that we desperately need & Eric Curry, another desperately needed big.
Firing the coach every 2-3 years is not going to make us any better. We're just going to have to endure this storm, if we want to get to the rainbow.
Dorsey looks like he's progressing and will be a very good 4 year player. Mason is being game planned for and having the other teams best defender on him all the time, so he's had struggles, but he's handled that pretty well and has been forced into a bit of a leadership role that he may or may not be ready for. Overall, I'm happy with him & think he's also a very good 4 year player for us. McBrayer isn't as far along offensively, but does a nice job defensively, is very athletic and I see no reason to think he won't be a good player for us either. Ahmad Gilbert has shown some nice things lately, especially his understanding of the game and I'd much rather have him on the floor than Buggs. Murphy is going to get even better once he learns how to box out, put a hit on opposing players, use his strength rather than just out-jumping people for rebounds & play team defense. We really are just seeing the tip of his iceberg of talent. Bakary is getting there, slowly but surely. I'm sure Pitino would have loved to get Jalil Okafor, but what we could actually get was Bakary. Bakary needs constant basketball reps to up his court IQ and he needs to hit the weights hard. Especially his lower body. That said, I think Bakary has the potential to be a good player. Gaston might be a miss, but bigs tend to develop late. Maybe the light will go one for him at some point? If not, then he gets stuck behind Lynch & Bakary is is probably encouraged to move on. If that happens, we have the opportunity to recruit over him.
I don't even expect much next season. I figure all the new faces will take time to gel, but by season's end we should see it all coming together & perhaps even make a surprise run in the tourney? Fitz was very good as a Freshman at A & M, and if he can return to that form as a more mature player, we may have gotten a real steal. I forget the source, but have heard him referred to as the best player on the team in practices. Lynch will not wow us with his touch and skill, but he will provide a defensive presence and physicality that we are desperately missing right now. He should be a big upgrade if he can stay out of foul trouble. We also add Coffey, our first real superstar potential player, Michael Hurt a shooter that we desperately need & Eric Curry, another desperately needed big.
Firing the coach every 2-3 years is not going to make us any better. We're just going to have to endure this storm, if we want to get to the rainbow.
short ornery norwegian
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Pitino was on the Sports Huddle today (sunday). I missed the first part of the interview, but in what I heard, it was all about building around the young players. In essence, Pitino was saying that the core of the team is Mason, the four freshmen, the two transfers for next year, and next year's recruiting class. Said they have a "top 20" recruiting class for next year, and need to have 2 or 3 recruiting classes like that in a row to really fill out the roster. Said Lynch will be one of the better big men in the conference next year. Fitzgerald will play SF at 6'8" to add length to the front line.
One interesting part involved a question from Dave Mona about dealing with referees. Pitino said the other coaches know the refs better than he does, and because of his youth, it will take time to earn respect (and get calls his way) from the refs.
Also said that Minnesota is a great place to live - his favorite of all the places he's lived, and they need to sell that to recruits. Also talked about the need to have new facilities to land top recruits.
One interesting part involved a question from Dave Mona about dealing with referees. Pitino said the other coaches know the refs better than he does, and because of his youth, it will take time to earn respect (and get calls his way) from the refs.
Also said that Minnesota is a great place to live - his favorite of all the places he's lived, and they need to sell that to recruits. Also talked about the need to have new facilities to land top recruits.
Ewert86PC
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Firing the coach every two to three years is not a good idea, nor is keeping coaches who set the program back two to three years. The amount of regression in this program this year is tantamount to being set back two to three years.
How many years do we want to keep a coach who keeps us neutral one year and the next year sets us back two to three years?
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How many years do we want to keep a coach who keeps us neutral one year and the next year sets us back two to three years?
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Costa Rican Gopher
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So fire the coach mid-season in year 3?
Ewert86PC
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It is an option that cannot be totally dismissed at this point. I think this team will be lucky to win 5 B1G Conference games this year. I question just how much additional damage it would do since we seem to be rapidly approaching a "burn it to the ground" point with this program.
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