This team is fun on paper, but why does it look so bad? | Gopherhole


Gopher_In_NYC

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You misheard... it is 2037. Have patience, my friend. I still think that you would really enjoy the UNC board. It gets about 3x the traffic that we get and they get to argue about whether they should have won by 10 points or 20 points every single game. You should try it on for size... I really think it suits you!

Can I offer a modest, as in very modest NIL deal for Spaulding to transfer to the UNC board?
 

Gopher_In_NYC

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The biggest problem is the Athletic Director and his poor hire of basketball coaches. He is trying to keep costs low while he pays down athletic department debt. He is hiring low tier MN coaches that fans can connect with and help him raise donor monies. That's it.

You can keep believing the lie that every year it is going to get better, but it will not. Both men's and women's basketball programs will be BIG10 bottom dwellers year after year until the change is made at the top. The results speak for themselves.

Geez-
Is Babe making you sleep on the couch?
 


Gold Vision

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Not sure why anybody is surprised.

The roster is a mishmash of transfers and pretty lightly regarded freshmen with a coaching staff literally learning on the job. It was inevitable that there would be issues.

My advice would be to check-in a few years from now and see if they've improved from the cellar-dweller program they currently are. Otherwise, prepare to see a lot of losing and bad basketball for awhile. That's just the reality, like it or not.
This isn’t college football, it doesn’t take years to rebuild a team. We saw both Tubby and Pitino have almost instant relative success here. What worries me the most is Johnson missed his “shiny and new” opportunity to sell hope and hype as a new coach. Now all he’s got is playing time to sell.
 



cjbfbp

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The biggest problem is the Athletic Director and his poor hire of basketball coaches. He is trying to keep costs low while he pays down athletic department debt. He is hiring low tier MN coaches that fans can connect with and help him raise donor monies. That's it.

You know, I've noticed in my years on this board that many of you are confused about the roles of collegiate Athletic Directors. They are not professional sports teams' General Managers. They are business managers.

He is trying to keep costs low while he pays down athletic department debt. He is hiring low tier MN coaches that fans can connect with and help him raise donor monies. That's it.

Well, if he is performing well in raising funds from donors and other sources and keeping expenses down, then he is probably doing a good job in higher administration's eyes. You have to remember that YOUR GOALS are not the ones that matter most to the people who evaluate the AD.

However, if he assiduously devotes himself to the second goal (keeping expenses down) then I have to wonder how good he is, relatively speaking, at the first (raising funds from donors and other sources).
 


Wet_Blanket_Guy

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I get the rankings were in favor of Penn State, but those were awful and very skewed because of covid. So many players didn’t get seen and ranked appropriately. Anyone who watch MN high school basketball last year knew Payne was the best player in MN and it wasn’t close. Carrington was easily on the same level as Holloman. I’ll judge the freshman on production and play for this year and I typically like rankings as a measure.
This is a joke right? Holloman is a true PG with elite speed and athleticism. I still remember a few years ago when cretin played minnehaha academy @ Hopkins during a holiday tournament (when Chet and Suggs were on the team) and Tre was the best player on the floor…and most athletic.

He would be an absolute game changer for us. If we lost Carrington, it really changes nothing as he isn’t a true ball handler and can’t create his own offense or offense for others (he’s a catch and shoot player).
 




skiumah1

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I am going back and forth whether I'm too hopeful about the following lineup. Even aside from bias, shouldn't we be able to compete with these guys?

Cooper / Samuels
Carrington / Henley / Ramberg (Why are we not seeing any Ramberg?
Battle / JOJ / Ramberg
Garcia / JOJ / Battle
Payne / Garcia

*I really am not a big Thompson guy unless you're playing a zone or can hide him somehow. Doesn't do enough for me offensively to have him out there on Defense as a liability.

Just seems like we are currently in the feel out process, with no real identity of who we are. I would anticipate this team gets better as the year goes on and hopefully be able to find that peak.
 

Gopherfan84

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curious what you're seeing to believe this. Appears Mens hockey is trending up. I still like the PJ hire. Any other U sports teams trending up?

swimming is way down, might finish last in the bigten this year. wrestling is down - Coyle didn't create the JRob problem but he's holding on to Eggum too long as the team is about to leave the top 10 rankings. and then there is basketball

Iowa State showed you could take a 2 win basketball team and turn it around in one year by their TJ hire.

Why can't Minnesota do that?
He’s the most competent I’ve seen. He raises the most money, is decisive in his decision making, and he has a plan. I’ll be honest and I’m not as worried about the Olympic sports. I’ll also admit the bar hasn’t been set very high as I don’t remember enough about Boston besides the scandal.
 

Gopherfan84

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This is a joke right? Holloman is a true PG with elite speed and athleticism. I still remember a few years ago when cretin played minnehaha academy @ Hopkins during a holiday tournament (when Chet and Suggs were on the team) and Tre was the best player on the floor…and most athletic.

He would be an absolute game changer for us. If we lost Carrington, it really changes nothing as he isn’t a true ball handler and can’t create his own offense or offense for others (he’s a catch and shoot player).
I’ve seen Carrington and Holloman multiple times. I’m going off of more than one game. Holloman has tools sure, but he has warts that need to be worked out too. He would’ve gotten taken to the woodshed by DePaul and UNLVs guards too. So I fail to see it as a game changer this year.
 



bga1

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I am going back and forth whether I'm too hopeful about the following lineup. Even aside from bias, shouldn't we be able to compete with these guys?

Cooper / Samuels
Carrington / Henley / Ramberg (Why are we not seeing any Ramberg?
Battle / JOJ / Ramberg
Garcia / JOJ / Battle
Payne / Garcia

*I really am not a big Thompson guy unless you're playing a zone or can hide him somehow. Doesn't do enough for me offensively to have him out there on Defense as a liability.

Just seems like we are currently in the feel out process, with no real identity of who we are. I would anticipate this team gets better as the year goes on and hopefully be able to find that peak.
The problem with Thompson is that he is a 7 footer that prefers to shoot the three. It's a great asset to have a big that can shoot the three, but that can't be his #1 option. He needs another year of bulking up.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe

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No kidding. Two different people who spend most of their time on the OTB board have said the exact same thing within the past week.
I've been pretty consistent on this since the end of last season. They didn't improve as the season went on last year, which was a serious red flag to me. Regardless of the roster construction and the talent on the roster, et al, with any reasonable amount of coaching, they would have improved at least somewhat as the season went on. They simply did not.

Certainly a lot of time and opportunity for things to turn around and the future to look bright but from what we've seen so far, it would be foolish to not be concerned
 

RickDornsby

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I love KenPom, but Pomeroy himself said his early season rankings are skewed towards teams returning guys and don’t account enough for incoming players. I bet Vegas puts us at less than 18 when we play. Tough to say since we don’t play for awhile, but I’d be shocked and take the gophers with a good chunk of change if it was 18
Well. Yeah…as one note, I said Penn State at home to be the most dramatic.

The Vegas lines are basically KenPom. I do admit to making the mistake of just taking the +/- of ratings as what it usually is. I think the game at the barn is more like Gophers +6 per those now that look more, because it’ll be very low scoring. But being 9 points worse on a neutral court is a big gap.
 

GopherOhana

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Like Minnesota, Louisville is struggling. This is Kenny Payne's first head coaching job.

an interesting read from Mike Rutherford. Some Gopher expectations for Johnson by some posters on this board are similar to Rutherford's expectations for Payne and Louisville.

"The lowest bar I had for this team, and the only one I really cared about it clearing was as simple and straightforward as possible: Play hard. Play like this means something to you. Play like you’re willing to do whatever it takes to be the start of something great and get this program back to where it’s supposed to be."

 

cjbfbp

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I've been pretty consistent on this since the end of last season. They didn't improve as the season went on last year, which was a serious red flag to me. Regardless of the roster construction and the talent on the roster, et al, with any reasonable amount of coaching, they would have improved at least somewhat as the season went on. They simply did not.

Certainly a lot of time and opportunity for things to turn around and the future to look bright but from what we've seen so far, it would be foolish to not be concerned

Whether Johnson is a good coach or not is not the point of my post or the post I seconded.

Plenty of people complain about coaches around here; most do. Johnson may not get as much as Fleck because he's still fairly new and expectations for the BB program are still pretty low. Some people who post here have an aversion to negativity so they criticize the critics.
 



Bayfieldgopher

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OK. Here is my rant FWIW.

I don't like BJ's offense. Way too much dribbling and he doesn't try to establish the post play. No hi/low looks and backside cuts. Relies on the 3 but yet I don't see set plays to get our best outside shooters good looks. I watched Iowa State last eve in win over Nova. They pass the ball rather than relying on the dribble and use motion offense. (Will be interesting to see them against UNC.) The greater the ball movement and player movement, the more pressure it puts on the D. We don't have that.

He has recruited big slow players who lack quickness; Garcia and TT. Cooper also. Samuels lacks BIG tools. That takes away a lot of potential to create an effective offense and D. Glad to see the more athletic and stronger newbie's; Henley, Carrington, PP and OJ and excited to see their development. .Plus the two incoming recruits. But if all they do is launch 3's and dribble, then not much will be gained.
 

gopheraddict

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OK. Here is my rant FWIW.

I don't like BJ's offense. Way too much dribbling and he doesn't try to establish the post play. No hi/low looks and backside cuts. Relies on the 3 but yet I don't see set plays to get our best outside shooters good looks. I watched Iowa State last eve in win over Nova. They pass the ball rather than relying on the dribble and use motion offense. (Will be interesting to see them against UNC.) The greater the ball movement and player movement, the more pressure it puts on the D. We don't have that.

He has recruited big slow players who lack quickness; Garcia and TT. Cooper also. Samuels lacks BIG tools. That takes away a lot of potential to create an effective offense and D. Glad to see the more athletic and stronger newbie's; Henley, Carrington, PP and OJ and excited to see their development. .Plus the two incoming recruits. But if all they do is launch 3's and dribble, then not much will be gained.
Excellent, concise analysis! If only Ben would read it and adjust the offense in response.
 

Gopherfan84

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OK. Here is my rant FWIW.

I don't like BJ's offense. Way too much dribbling and he doesn't try to establish the post play. No hi/low looks and backside cuts. Relies on the 3 but yet I don't see set plays to get our best outside shooters good looks. I watched Iowa State last eve in win over Nova. They pass the ball rather than relying on the dribble and use motion offense. (Will be interesting to see them against UNC.) The greater the ball movement and player movement, the more pressure it puts on the D. We don't have that.
I agree it’s been too stagnant. I’m hoping it improves with the guys playing together more. We just added our best offensive player, shooter, and spacer. Hopefully we will see some adjustments. Iowa States O May have moved the ball well, but they have been awful in offensive efficiency the last two years. So the movement may be esthetically more pleasing, it isn’t much better than ours.
He has recruited big slow players who lack quickness; Garcia and TT. Cooper also. Samuels lacks BIG tools. That takes away a lot of potential to create an effective offense and D. Glad to see the more athletic and stronger newbie's; Henley, Carrington, PP and OJ and excited to see their development. .Plus the two incoming recruits. But if all they do is launch 3's and dribble, then not much will be gained.
Thompson was a Pitino recruit technically. Ben recruited Fox who should’ve been starting over him had he not gotten injured. We disagree on Garcias quickness. He’s pretty smooth which can look slower, but he’s pretty quick for his size imo. Most modern offenses launch 3s. I think we dislike our team right now cause they aren’t making them well yet.
 

ecoperson

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This isn’t college football, it doesn’t take years to rebuild a team. We saw both Tubby and Pitino have almost instant relative success here. What worries me the most is Johnson missed his “shiny and new” opportunity to sell hope and hype as a new coach. Now all he’s got is playing time to sell.
I'd say Johnson hit his "shiny and new" opportunity as far as he could hit it in signing Evans and Christie. Johnson has done NOTHING to deserve either of the two of them. He is selling, selling, selling on the future and these guys were buying!
 


Holy Man

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OK. Here is my rant FWIW.

I don't like BJ's offense. Way too much dribbling and he doesn't try to establish the post play. No hi/low looks and backside cuts. Relies on the 3 but yet I don't see set plays to get our best outside shooters good looks. I watched Iowa State last eve in win over Nova. They pass the ball rather than relying on the dribble and use motion offense. (Will be interesting to see them against UNC.) The greater the ball movement and player movement, the more pressure it puts on the D. We don't have that.

He has recruited big slow players who lack quickness; Garcia and TT. Cooper also. Samuels lacks BIG tools. That takes away a lot of potential to create an effective offense and D. Glad to see the more athletic and stronger newbie's; Henley, Carrington, PP and OJ and excited to see their development. .Plus the two incoming recruits. But if all they do is launch 3's and dribble, then not much will be gained.
I’m pretty sure the offense is not designed for all the dribbling we’re seeing. The offense looks disorganized and they are clearly a step slow in getting passes off, especially to the rare cutters. They missed open guys like crazy in both games. Whether it’s a skill thing or an experience thing, I don’t know. But I’m nearly 100% sure the over dribbling is not by design.

There were several high low attempts but almost all of them ended up in turnovers. Right now, they are not a good passing team.

Let’s critique Ben on his subbing patterns instead of on court strategy for now. More consensus on that!😬
 

GopherWeatherGuy

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I agree it’s been too stagnant. I’m hoping it improves with the guys playing together more. We just added our best offensive player, shooter, and spacer. Hopefully we will see some adjustments. Iowa States O May have moved the ball well, but they have been awful in offensive efficiency the last two years. So the movement may be esthetically more pleasing, it isn’t much better than ours.

Their offensive efficiency was bad last year, about where ours is now, but has made a pretty big jump so far this season. And that's after losing their top 2 scorers. But you can get away with less offensive efficiency when you are elite defensively, which Iowa St is.
 

Gopherfan84

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Their offensive efficiency was bad last year, about where ours is now, but has made a pretty big jump so far this season. And that's after losing their top 2 scorers. But you can get away with less offensive efficiency when you are elite defensively, which Iowa St is.
The two top scorers ISU lost went efficient so losing them probably bumped them in itself. ISU defense (which is elite) has nothing to do with my point that they aren’t the poster child or example of why ball movement is better for offense.
 

golfing18now

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Their offensive efficiency was bad last year, about where ours is now, but has made a pretty big jump so far this season. And that's after losing their top 2 scorers. But you can get away with less offensive efficiency when you are elite defensively, which Iowa St is.

The ink is a long ways off from being dry on the Ben Johnson era, but the best two comparables to Minnesota are Penn State and Iowa State, given where each program was at the time each new coach was hired. So far, we are in a distant third by any measure. I won't be nervous this year, but definitely want to see some improvement as we move forward.
 

CycloneGopher

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The ink is a long ways off from being dry on the Ben Johnson era, but the best two comparables to Minnesota are Penn State and Iowa State, given where each program was at the time each new coach was hired. So far, we are in a distant third by any measure. I won't be nervous this year, but definitely want to see some improvement as we move forward.
As an Iowa State fan as well it's tough to compare both teams. Minnesota lost nearly everyone when Johnson got hired ISU returned alot of players. Last year ISU offense was rough to say the least and defense carried us. Year two for OTZ and defense is still there but offense has picked up. Second year in system for most players. Plus picked up two transfers from a very successful St Bonnie's team. We are led by guys who are in yes 4,5,6 of college basketball. With 1 freshman getting some playing time. Issue Minnesota freshman Watson barely sees the floor and king has yet to play.

Meanwhile, last year showed Ben can coach defense and knows how to create offensive looks. Players picked it up quicker because they were all very experienced. This year we see 3 true freshman on the floor most games. Give it time let's these kids grow.
 




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