This team is fun on paper, but why does it look so bad? | Gopherhole

[GopherWeatherGuy]

The two top scorers ISU lost went efficient so losing them probably bumped them in itself. ISU defense (which is elite) has nothing to do with my point that they aren’t the poster child or example of why ball movement is better for offense.

That's not really true. Brockington was their most efficient player last season. Hunter was lower, more likely due to being a freshman, but he has been very efficient for Texas this season. The new guys Iowa St. have brought in have also been very efficient so far this season.

Iowa St.'s least efficient starter is Gabe K.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

As an Iowa State fan as well it's tough to compare both teams. Minnesota lost nearly everyone when Johnson got hired ISU returned alot of players. Last year ISU offense was rough to say the least and defense carried us. Year two for OTZ and defense is still there but offense has picked up. Second year in system for most players. Plus picked up two transfers from a very successful St Bonnie's team. We are led by guys who are in yes 4,5,6 of college basketball. With 1 freshman getting some playing time. Issue Minnesota freshman Watson barely sees the floor and king has yet to play.

Meanwhile, last year showed Ben can coach defense and knows how to create offensive looks. Players picked it up quicker because they were all very experienced. This year we see 3 true freshman on the floor most games. Give it time let's these kids grow.

Then you should know all of Iowa St's current roster was brought in either last year or this year under TJ. Last year, Conditt was the only starter that had played for Iowa St before and he averaged 5 ppg. Hunter had also signed early, and he could have asked for his release with the coaching change, but TJ recruited him to stay for a year. The other 3 he inherited were bench players who averaged 2-3 ppg and are gone now.

What Otz inherited is not different than Ben, and he went to the sweet 16 in year 1. Now in year 2, 100% of the roster TJ inherited has been turned over and they are 5-0 and just beat the #1 team in the country. And that's after losing their top 2 scorers from last season.

Otz has proven he can coach defense, offense, and how to recruit to win now with a brand new roster. There's no excuses about who was lost or time to gel etc. He has run circles around Ben who has yet to proven he knows how to build a competitive roster or coach offense/defense.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

The ink is a long ways off from being dry on the Ben Johnson era, but the best two comparables to Minnesota are Penn State and Iowa State, given where each program was at the time each new coach was hired. So far, we are in a distant third by any measure. I won't be nervous this year, but definitely want to see some improvement as we move forward.

Agreed. We can lose all the games this season as long as we see growth.

 

[CycloneGopher]

Then you should know all of Iowa St's current roster was brought in either last year or this year under TJ. Last year, Conditt was the only starter that had played for Iowa St before and he averaged 5 ppg. Hunter had also signed early, and he could have asked for his release with the coaching change, but TJ recruited him to stay for a year. The other 3 he inherited were bench players who averaged 2-3 ppg and are gone now.

What Otz inherited is not different than Ben, and he went to the sweet 16 in year 1. Now in year 2, 100% of the roster TJ inherited has been turned over and they are 5-0 and just beat the #1 team in the country. And that's after losing their top 2 scorers from last season.

Otz has proven he can coach defense, offense, and how to recruit to win now with a brand new roster. There's no excuses about who was lost or time to gel etc. He has run circles around Ben who has yet to proven he knows how to build a competitive roster or coach offense/defense.

I'll agree to disagree on this one. Am I super happy with Gophers right now! No, but I see talent with freshman and see a good class coming in next year. Also I am in the belief that Fox and Ihnen would've provided alot of value. Show growth this year and bring in an experienced guard once season is over and he is building it.

 

[Gopherfan84]

That's not really true. Brockington was their most efficient player last season. Hunter was lower, more likely due to being a freshman, but he has been very efficient for Texas this season. The new guys Iowa St. have brought in have also been very efficient so far this season.

Iowa St.'s least efficient starter is Gabe K.

Brockington was their most efficient, but as a team they weren’t good. Still fair since my comment was incorrect. Hunter has played more efficient. I bet if he was at MN we’d blame Ben instead of his age.

No argument on Gabe K being the most inefficient.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

Brockington was their most efficient, but as a team they weren’t good. Still fair since my comment was incorrect. Hunter has played more efficient. I bet if he was at MN we’d blame Ben instead of his age.

No argument on Gabe K being the most inefficient.

Are the Iowa state kids smart or are they well spoken?

 

[Gopherfan84]

Then you should know all of Iowa St's current roster was brought in either last year or this year under TJ. Last year, Conditt was the only starter that had played for Iowa St before and he averaged 5 ppg. Hunter had also signed early, and he could have asked for his release with the coaching change, but TJ recruited him to stay for a year. The other 3 he inherited were bench players who averaged 2-3 ppg and are gone now.

ISU luckily didn’t have injuries. Why doesn’t he get criticized for not keeping Hunter?

What Otz inherited is not different than Ben, and he went to the sweet 16 in year 1. Now in year 2, 100% of the roster TJ inherited has been turned over and they are 5-0 and just beat the #1 team in the country. And that's after losing their top 2 scorers from last season.

TJ is playing some older guys again this year right? He’s got them off to a great start, but I don’t see them keeping it up. We will see.

Otz has proven he can coach defense, offense, and how to recruit to win now with a brand new roster. There's no excuses about who was lost or time to gel etc. He has run circles around Ben who has yet to proven he knows how to build a competitive roster or coach offense/defense.

Otz has shown he can coach elite defense for one season and five games. His UNLV, SDSU, and the Hoiberg teams (As an assistant) were not defensively elite like this and in most cases were bad. Credit to him for what he’s gotten them to do, but let’s hold off on crowning him yet.

 

[leib0039]

I'll agree to disagree on this one. Am I super happy with Gophers right now! No, but I see talent with freshman and see a good class coming in next year. Also I am in the belief that Fox and Ihnen would've provided alot of value. Show growth this year and bring in an experienced guard once season is over and he is building it.

So with transfers its hard to 100% know a roster year to year but next year...

Payne C paint only
Evans C, likely all paint
Fox C/PF not playing in 2 years paint mostly
TT C who thinks he's a SG but can't really shoot
Battle slow so should be a PF
Garcia slow should be a PF
JOJ athletic big PF can't shoot
Ihnen despite assertions on here he is KD he can't shoot or create offense on the perimeter
Carrington SG but not at all a PG
Henley, clearly not ready for PG role and not a great shooter
Christie likely not ready to play PG

Some nice talent yes but IMO very poor roster construction. 4-5 guys who shouldn't leave the post, almost no shooting and absolutely 0 point guard or play making. HUGE issue for Ben.

I think that's the best thing TJ has done at ISU. he has kids to fill roles. Bigs, shooters, playmakers etc. Ben to me hasn't done a good job of that at all

 

[Holy Man]

So with transfers its hard to 100% know a roster year to year but next year...

Payne C paint only
Evans C, likely all paint
Fox C/PF not playing in 2 years paint mostly
TT C who thinks he's a SG but can't really shoot
Battle slow so should be a PF
Garcia slow should be a PF
JOJ athletic big PF can't shoot
Ihnen despite assertions on here he is KD he can't shoot or create offense on the perimeter
Carrington SG but not at all a PG
Henley, clearly not ready for PG role and not a great shooter
Christie likely not ready to play PG

Some nice talent yes but IMO very poor roster construction. 4-5 guys who shouldn't leave the post, almost no shooting and absolutely 0 point guard or play making. HUGE issue for Ben.

I think that's the best thing TJ has done at ISU. he has kids to fill roles. Bigs, shooters, playmakers etc. Ben to me hasn't done a good job of that at all

A pile of major assumptions in that post. Condemning every player to virtually no improvement is over the top. I’ll go on record that Payne will improve and/or demonstrate a game away from the basket and that Carrington will be able to play the point competently and that Christie will be ready to play when he arrives. You’re spot on with the injured guys though. Expecting much from them is a fools game.

 

[Crappie]

Brockington was their most efficient, but as a team they weren’t good. Still fair since my comment was incorrect. Hunter has played more efficient. I bet if he was at MN we’d blame Ben instead of his age.

No argument on Gabe K being the most inefficient.

I don’t think Ben would be blamed. A lot of fans are giving Ben a super long leash.

 

[Gopherfan84]

I don’t think Ben would be blamed. A lot of fans are giving Ben a super long leash.

A lot are and a lot are being ridiculous. The fair and probably correct spot in somewhere in-between.

 

[stocker08]

Then you should know all of Iowa St's current roster was brought in either last year or this year under TJ. Last year, Conditt was the only starter that had played for Iowa St before and he averaged 5 ppg. Hunter had also signed early, and he could have asked for his release with the coaching change, but TJ recruited him to stay for a year. The other 3 he inherited were bench players who averaged 2-3 ppg and are gone now.

What Otz inherited is not different than Ben, and he went to the sweet 16 in year 1. Now in year 2, 100% of the roster TJ inherited has been turned over and they are 5-0 and just beat the #1 team in the country. And that's after losing their top 2 scorers from last season.

Otz has proven he can coach defense, offense, and how to recruit to win now with a brand new roster. There's no excuses about who was lost or time to gel etc. He has run circles around Ben who has yet to proven he knows how to build a competitive roster or coach offense/defense.

Otzelberger has also been a D1 head coach for five years longer than Johnson. How fair is it really to compare Johnson at this point....two years in....to this guy? Has Otzelberger proven that you can turn over an entire roster and have high level success? Sure. But he's more the exception than the rule. His success shouldn't be the bar we set for Ben Johnson after two years.

Johnson is bringing in talented players. If you don't see the potential of his first freshman class....then maybe roundball isn't your sport. Why shouldn't he get a chance to build his own team before we decide that he isn't a good enough coach?

The weird entitlement of this fan base astounds and confuses me. People have no patience....like they are already pining for those good old days of 8-10....7-11 conference records with Tubby sitting on his stool looking like a comatose patient or Pitino wearing a dumb guy face as the team lets up another 15-0 run coming out of halftime. Yeah....I'll pass on more of that. Let's see what Ben Johnson can do once he gets in a few full classes and isn't rushing out to the transfer portal to fill gaping holes with chewing gum.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Otzelberger has also been a D1 head coach for five years longer than Johnson. How fair is it really to compare Johnson at this point....two years in....to this guy? Has Otzelberger proven that you can turn over an entire roster and have high level success? Sure. But he's more the exception than the rule. His success shouldn't be the bar we set for Ben Johnson after two years.

I’d argue he hasn’t proven he can have a high level of success yet. He’s on the path to showing it, but not yet. His sweet 16 run was impressive, but like all tournament runs, there was luck with it too. I’m impressed that he’s had his teams defend as well as they have so far. They didn’t do that at UNLV or SDSU.

Johnson is bringing in talented players. If you don't see the potential of his first freshman class....then maybe roundball isn't your sport. Why shouldn't he get a chance to build his own team before we decide that he isn't a good enough coach?

The weird entitlement of this fan base astounds and confuses me. People have no patience....like they are already pining for those good old days of 8-10....7-11 conference records with Tubby sitting on his stool looking like a comatose patient or Pitino wearing a dumb guy face as the team lets up another 15-0 run coming out of halftime. Yeah....I'll pass on more of that. Let's see what Ben Johnson can do once he gets in a few full classes and isn't rushing out to the transfer portal to fill gaping holes with chewing gum.

ISU has been a better basketball school than us for quite some time. I think if you want to compare them, compare them after 4 years. Otherwise besides being in close proximity, I don’t see them as very comparable

 

[golfing18now]

Otzelberger has also been a D1 head coach for five years longer than Johnson. How fair is it really to compare Johnson at this point....two years in....to this guy? Has Otzelberger proven that you can turn over an entire roster and have high level success? Sure. But he's more the exception than the rule. His success shouldn't be the bar we set for Ben Johnson after two years.

Johnson is bringing in talented players. If you don't see the potential of his first freshman class....then maybe roundball isn't your sport. Why shouldn't he get a chance to build his own team before we decide that he isn't a good enough coach?

The weird entitlement of this fan base astounds and confuses me. People have no patience....like they are already pining for those good old days of 8-10....7-11 conference records with Tubby sitting on his stool looking like a comatose patient or Pitino wearing a dumb guy face as the team lets up another 15-0 run coming out of halftime. Yeah....I'll pass on more of that. Let's see what Ben Johnson can do once he gets in a few full classes and isn't rushing out to the transfer portal to fill gaping holes with chewing gum.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you have posted here, but Iowa State's success proves it can be done in a relatively short period of time. What Iowa State has done is pretty remarkable given they were in worse shape than Minnesota was the year prior to the new coaching regimes. They went out and hired an established coach and we went with the lottery ticket. It might work out. It might not. But is Iowa State a better destination job than Minnesota?

Maybe the better comparable is Penn State -- first year coach at a traditional doormat in our conference. They have had just as many appearances on Weakling Wednesday as we have had, probably more, at a place which has little to no interest in basketball typically. We shouldn't be losing out to the Penn State type teams. But Shrewsberry has done a pretty nice job thus far too.

 

[ecoperson]

Then you should know all of Iowa St's current roster was brought in either last year or this year under TJ. Last year, Conditt was the only starter that had played for Iowa St before and he averaged 5 ppg. Hunter had also signed early, and he could have asked for his release with the coaching change, but TJ recruited him to stay for a year. The other 3 he inherited were bench players who averaged 2-3 ppg and are gone now.

What Otz inherited is not different than Ben, and he went to the sweet 16 in year 1. Now in year 2, 100% of the roster TJ inherited has been turned over and they are 5-0 and just beat the #1 team in the country. And that's after losing their top 2 scorers from last season.

Otz has proven he can coach defense, offense, and how to recruit to win now with a brand new roster. There's no excuses about who was lost or time to gel etc. He has run circles around Ben who has yet to proven he knows how to build a competitive roster or coach offense/defense.

We get it, GWG. You have never liked the hire. You can continue to compare and complain but Otzelberger is NOT the coach of the Minnesota Golden Gophers. AD Mark Coyle hired Ben Johnson instead.

Otzelberger had 5 years of head coaching experience before arriving in Ames. Otzelberger had been an assistant for 17 years including at Iowa State for almost a decade before leaving to pursue head coaching opportunities. Otzelberger will likely not be at Iowa State in the next few years. He will either leave for greener pastures for career progression or will be forced to do so as the Big 12 becomes less of a major conference and loses major big boy conference revenue.

Ben Johnson was a first time head coach upon his hire. He had been an assistant for 15 years including 5 years at MN. Johnson is from the state of MN, played for the Gophers, and was hired to help rebuild relationships to the Twin Cities basketball community.

While Otzelberger gained experience as a head coach at other stops, Johnson is getting his head coaching experience on the fly here. Many fans are willing to wait a couple of years to let Johnson grow into the role instead of aimlessly and endlessly comparing the two coaches who are in different places in their career let alone vastly different situations.

If we're going to be selectively comparing coaches, maybe it would be more fair to compare to Coach K who, despite having been a head coach at Army for several years, struggled as head coach at Duke for several more years before getting into the tournament?

To his credit, Johnson has made absolutely no excuses. Fans, admittedly, have been forced to try to explain the facts to other 'fans' who insist on living in the past, being right, or making a point rather than supporting a new coach and a team that has some nice young talent on the roster and some more nationally-ranked talent coming in the next year.

 

[ecoperson]

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you have posted here, but Iowa State's success proves it can be done in a relatively short period of time. What Iowa State has done is pretty remarkable given they were in worse shape than Minnesota was the year prior to the new coaching regimes. They went out and hired an established coach and we went with the lottery ticket. It might work out. It might not. But is Iowa State a better destination job than Minnesota?

You hit the nail on the head... ISU hired an established coach and the Minnesota hired an assistant coach with strong MN ties. Let's compare the results after a few years. One year and change isn't enough of a sample size to account for ALL of the other many different variables.

Unless, of course, you want to count the fact that Johnson beat Otzelberger head-to-head for Cam Christie in the Class of '23!!

 

[Gopherfan84]

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you have posted here, but Iowa State's success proves it can be done in a relatively short period of time. What Iowa State has done is pretty remarkable given they were in worse shape than Minnesota was the year prior to the new coaching regimes. They went out and hired an established coach and we went with the lottery ticket. It might work out. It might not. But is Iowa State a better destination job than Minnesota?

Iowa State has less wins the year before, but they hardly were in worse shape. They had 3 tournament appearances in 4 years under Prohm and then two bad years. They had a top 40 recruit coming in who stayed (Give Otz some credit here, but Hunter also didn’t want to leave, so he just had to show he cared). Also ISU is a more desirable job currently. Better resources, support, and stadium.

Maybe the better comparable is Penn State -- first year coach at a traditional doormat in our conference. They have had just as many appearances on Weakling Wednesday as we have had, probably more, at a place which has little to no interest in basketball typically. We shouldn't be losing out to the Penn State type teams. But Shrewsberry has done a pretty nice job thus far too.

Penn State is a more reasonable comp. Shrewberry worked for Brad Steven’s and Painter. He’s certainly no slouch.

 

[SelectionSunday]

The ink is a long ways off from being dry on the Ben Johnson era, but the best two comparables to Minnesota are Penn State and Iowa State, given where each program was at the time each new coach was hired. So far, we are in a distant third by any measure. I won't be nervous this year, but definitely want to see some improvement as we move forward.

100% agree. I’d throw in Craig Smith (also 2nd year) at Utah, too.

 

[golfing18now]

100% agree. I’d throw in Craig Smith (also 2nd year) at Utah, too.

If memory serves, I think you started a thread on this very topic last year or at least commented on it. I couldn't remember the specifics. I thought about digging it up but I'm not very good at the search function here.

 

[golfing18now]

We get it, GWG. You have never liked the hire. You can continue to compare and complain but Otzelberger is NOT the coach of the Minnesota Golden Gophers. AD Mark Coyle hired Ben Johnson instead.

Otzelberger had 5 years of head coaching experience before arriving in Ames. Otzelberger had been an assistant for 17 years including at Iowa State for almost a decade before leaving to pursue head coaching opportunities. Otzelberger will likely not be at Iowa State in the next few years. He will either leave for greener pastures for career progression or will be forced to do so as the Big 12 becomes less of a major conference and loses major big boy conference revenue.

Ben Johnson was a first time head coach upon his hire. He had been an assistant for 15 years including 5 years at MN. Johnson is from the state of MN, played for the Gophers, and was hired to help rebuild relationships to the Twin Cities basketball community.

While Otzelberger gained experience as a head coach at other stops, Johnson is getting his head coaching experience on the fly here. Many fans are willing to wait a couple of years to let Johnson grow into the role instead of aimlessly and endlessly comparing the two coaches who are in different places in their career let alone vastly different situations.

If we're going to be selectively comparing coaches, maybe it would be more fair to compare to Coach K who, despite having been a head coach at Army for several years, struggled as head coach at Duke for several more years before getting into the tournament?

To his credit, Johnson has made absolutely no excuses. Fans, admittedly, have been forced to try to explain the facts to other 'fans' who insist on living in the past, being right, or making a point rather than supporting a new coach and a team that has some nice young talent on the roster and some more nationally-ranked talent coming in the next year.

ecoperson -- you are definitely one of the more positive posters on this board as it pertains to Gopher basketball. I respect your opinions and wish I had your patience.

But it is important to note the criticism at the time of the hire was not directed at Ben Johnson. It was solely directed at the administration. College coaches at schools like Minnesota are generally given a longer leash than pro coaches, for example. A bad hire can push the mediocrity snowball further down the hill and make it harder to climb the mountain, particularly at a school with such a mediocre recent history. The AD only gets so many opportunities to change that course. The fact that we didn't hire somebody with at least some track record is what disappointed me.

Ben Johnson isn't necessarily a bad hire. For the very same reasons I cited above, he deserves the patience you are calling for particularly as it pertains to getting the right players here. But he will face the same criticism as any other coach when it comes to the fluidity of his offense, tenacity of his defense, game strategy, etc. I don't think that should be off limits.

 

[Crappie]

I’d argue he hasn’t proven he can have a high level of success yet. He’s on the path to showing it, but not yet. His sweet 16 run was impressive, but like all tournament runs, there was luck with it too. I’m impressed that he’s had his teams defend as well as they have so far. They didn’t do that at UNLV or SDSU.

ISU has been a better basketball school than us for quite some time. I think if you want to compare them, compare them after 4 years. Otherwise besides being in close proximity, I don’t see them as very comparable

All tournament runs and luck? If that’s the case, all wins have luck involved as well.
Wins are wins. And losses are losses.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Otzelberger has also been a D1 head coach for five years longer than Johnson. How fair is it really to compare Johnson at this point....two years in....to this guy? Has Otzelberger proven that you can turn over an entire roster and have high level success? Sure. But he's more the exception than the rule. His success shouldn't be the bar we set for Ben Johnson after two years.

Johnson is bringing in talented players. If you don't see the potential of his first freshman class....then maybe roundball isn't your sport. Why shouldn't he get a chance to build his own team before we decide that he isn't a good enough coach?

The weird entitlement of this fan base astounds and confuses me. People have no patience....like they are already pining for those good old days of 8-10....7-11 conference records with Tubby sitting on his stool looking like a comatose patient or Pitino wearing a dumb guy face as the team lets up another 15-0 run coming out of halftime. Yeah....I'll pass on more of that. Let's see what Ben Johnson can do once he gets in a few full classes and isn't rushing out to the transfer portal to fill gaping holes with chewing gum.

They were both hired to similar programs that are 3 hours apart, and were coming off of poor seasons. Despite his head coaching experience, TJ was making ~500k less than Ben last season, and after a successful 1st season they're making about the same. So it's very fair to compare the two.

Even pre transfer portal, it didn't take 4-5 years to build a competitive college basketball roster. It didn't even take that long to re-build a football program with 85 scholarships. Usually in football you know by years 3 or 4 if you have the right coach. Basketball only takes 2-3 years. This team currently looks worse than last years, despite more talent. UNLV and DePaul are not great basketball teams, and we were worked over by both of them. And DePaul's coach is also very comparable to Ben.

Yes the freshman have talent, but I think the only one with star potential is Payne. The others just may be rotation players. And if Payne blows up, or Evans or Christie come in and blow up, they may only be here a year or two. They could either leave to the NBA or to another program throwing a bunch of NIL money at them. The days of slow builds with 4 year players went out the window during the Clem era.

 

[SelectionSunday]

If memory serves, I think you started a thread on this very topic last year or at least commented on it. I couldn't remember the specifics. I thought about digging it up but I'm not very good at the search function here.

Your memory is correct. Here’s how the four second-year coaches rank through games played November 25, 2022. I’m tracking their overall record and record vs. Power 6 opponents.

1. TJ Otzelberger (Iowa State)
Overall: 27-13, 67.5%
Power 6: 16-13, 55.2%

2. Micah Shrewsberry (Penn State)
Overall: 20-18, 52.6%
Power 6: 11-17, 39.3%

3. Ben Johnson (Minnesota)
Overall: 17-19, 47.2%
Power 6: 6-18, 25%

4. Craig Smith (Utah)
Overall: 15-22, 40.5%
Power 6: 6-20, 23.1%

I’ll plan on updating this on GH every so often during the season.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

If we're going to be selectively comparing coaches, maybe it would be more fair to compare to Coach K who, despite having been a head coach at Army for several years, struggled as head coach at Duke for several more years before getting into the tournament?

To his credit, Johnson has made absolutely no excuses. Fans, admittedly, have been forced to try to explain the facts to other 'fans' who insist on living in the past, being right, or making a point rather than supporting a new coach and a team that has some nice young talent on the roster and some more nationally-ranked talent coming in the next year.

Coach K started in an entirely different era over 40 years ago, that comparison is laughable.

One of my big problems with Johnson is that he absolutely has made excuses. Last year he recruited a last place team because he 'didn't have any tape to show recruits'. He doesn't want to fill all the scholarships or recruit over other players because 'he can't keep everyone happy'. Those are two horrible excuses that he has used.

I would be far more patient if the Gophers were losing but had a well constructed roster, were playing good offense, or defense, or showing something that gives me hope for the future. I don't see any of that right now and it doesn't look to get much better next season because of their guard recruiting.

We are back to the Tubby rosters of plodding length with weak guards. Except we now have less talent, and don't play defense anywhere close to where those teams did.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Coach K started in an entirely different era over 40 years ago, that comparison is laughable.

One of my big problems with Johnson is that he absolutely has made excuses. Last year he recruited a last place team because he 'didn't have any tape to show recruits'. He doesn't want to fill all the scholarships or recruit over other players because 'he can't keep everyone happy'. Those are two horrible excuses that he has used.

He’s not used any of these to excuse his losing season. He has state why he constructed the roster the way he has.

I would be far more patient if the Gophers were losing but had a well constructed roster, were playing good offense, or defense, or showing something that gives me hope for the future. I don't see any of that right now and it doesn't look to get much better next season because of their guard recruiting.

If the roster was well constructed would they be losing and requiring patience? I like the length and I like the guards we’ve added so far personally, but we have a difference in philosophies on what is and isn’t guard play so I can see your issue there.

We are back to the Tubby rosters of plodding length with weak guards. Except we now have less talent, and don't play defense anywhere close to where those teams did.

We haven’t defended well enough at all yet. Totally agree and hope that it improves otherwise we will be a weakling Wednesday team easily. I don’t remember Tubbys teams having poor guards. I thought Nolan, Hoffarber, Cobbs, Joseph, Hollins, and others were good. The year when it was bad is when Joseph left and Nolan got in trouble for academics. No B1G team can lose that and be ok.

 

[stocker08]

Your memory is correct. Here’s how the four second-year coaches rank through games played November 25, 2022. I’m tracking their overall record and record vs. Power 6 opponents.

1. TJ Otzelberger (Iowa State)
Overall: 27-13, 67.5%
Power 6: 16-13, 55.2%

2. Micah Shrewsberry (Penn State)
Overall: 20-18, 52.6%
Power 6: 11-17, 39.3%

3. Ben Johnson (Minnesota)
Overall: 17-19, 47.2%
Power 6: 6-18, 25%

4. Craig Smith (Utah)
Overall: 15-22, 40.5%
Power 6: 6-20, 23.1%

I’ll plan on updating this on GH every so often during the season.

Wasn't Craig Smith one of the guys that the GH armchair coaches wanted?

 

[Gopherfan84]

All tournament runs and luck? If that’s the case, all wins have luck involved as well.
Wins are wins. And losses are losses.

Agreed, I just value regular season success over tournament success because of all the variables involved.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

He’s not used any of these to excuse his losing season. He has state why he constructed the roster the way he has.

Those are still excuses, and they're not legitimate ones. He's on the same playing field as every other 2nd year coach.

We haven’t defended well enough at all yet. Totally agree and hope that it improves otherwise we will be a weakling Wednesday team easily. I don’t remember Tubbys teams having poor guards. I thought Nolan, Hoffarber, Cobbs, Joseph, Hollins, and others were good. The year when it was bad is when Joseph left and Nolan got in trouble for academics. No B1G team can lose that and be ok.

Nolan was the only true PG out of the bunch and he was good when he played. But it was a revolving door and they had zero depth at PG, which is why those teams fell apart as soon as Nolan was out.

Like Tubby, Ben is recruiting SGs and thinking they can be a primary PG. It doesn't work. The main reason Pitino won the NIT in year one was because he brought in little Dre to play PG with both Hollins' playing off the ball. He was the first true PG they had since Nolan.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Those are still excuses, and they're not legitimate ones. He's on the same playing field as every other 2nd year coach.



Nolan was the only true PG out of the bunch and he was good when he played. But it was a revolving door and they had zero depth at PG, which is why those teams fell apart as soon as Nolan was out.

Not calling Cobbs a point guard is rather crazy. He was a finalist for the Cousy award…. Funny thing about Nolan is Tubby didn’t recruit him. Monson did. Tubby also had Royce who was going to play point but we know how that all went.

Like Tubby, Ben is recruiting SGs and thinking they can be a primary PG. It doesn't work. The main reason Pitino won the NIT in year one was because he brought in little Dre to play PG with both Hollins' playing off the ball. He was the first true PG they had since Nolan.

We differ on what and the need for a “True PG” is and that’s fine. Little Dre did fine year one, but he fit the mold of high usage and inefficient which really showed his second year. Also are we crediting Little Dre for coming in and winning us the NIT? The team the year before with “no PG” made the NCAAs.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Not calling Cobbs a point guard is rather crazy. He was a finalist for the Cousy award…. Funny thing about Nolan is Tubby didn’t recruit him. Monson did. Tubby also had Royce who was going to play point but we know how that all went.

We differ on what and the need for a “True PG” is and that’s fine. Little Dre did fine year one, but he fit the mold of high usage and inefficient which really showed his second year. Also are we crediting Little Dre for coming in and winning us the NIT? The team the year before with “no PG” made the NCAAs.

Nolan being a Monson recruit ever furthers my point about Tubby's bad PG recruiting. Cobbs was here for only one year and looked terrible at PG. He did improve significantly at Cal, but he was also playing with some pretty good NBA talent there.

Tubby's last team and Pitino's first team both finished 8-10 in conference, and were 20-12 and 20-13 overall. The only difference between making the NCAA or the NIT was a different bubble. Pitino also didn't have Mbakwe or Rodney Williams, and yes little Dre made a huge difference making up for those two losses and not taking a step back in Pitino's first season.