marcus asks if gopher athletics should address how athletes feel about police

Donate To GopherHole
STPGopher said:
Reaching...I am taking to task the notion that someone has to be perfectly still to prevent being shot.

Moving on to the point regarding blaming the deaths of the Police Officers that were slain in Dallas. I wonder if the Dallas Police, or any other department for that matter are fans of AR-15's being readlily available?
Click to expand...

Nobody has said this.
 

STPGopher said:
What is crap is discounting people questioning why this particular stop ending in death. That is your call.

I'll just leave this here for you:

From the linked article: "But in 2001, the Legislature asked for a racial profiling study and it fell to Kearney, then at the Institute on Race & Poverty at the University of Minnesota Law School, to conduct it. His study, using information supplied voluntarily by 65 law enforcement jurisdictions in the state, found a strong likelihood that racial and ethnic bias played a role in traffic stop policies and practices. Overall, officers stopped minority drivers at greater rates than whites and searched them at greater rates, but found contraband in those searches at lower rates than whites."


http://www.twincities.com/2016/07/0...d-52-times-by-police-was-is-racial-profiling/
Click to expand...

Here we go, conflating two different issues.

The issue is what these guys did or didn't do re: the shootings. Or what the officers did or didn't do.

Let's leave the larger issues if structural racism, etc for a separate debate. It is clear anger over those issues is coloring your views of the police. What isn't cool is fanning the flames of hatred and getting innocent people shot. Everybody needs to calm the hell down.

Is there much difference between bombing an airplane, shooting up a nightclub, or sniping police officers? Extremism. The End of Reason. Irrational emotions trumping logic and justice. Indict and try the officers if the evidence shows it. Not good to stereotype police just as its not kind to stereotype young black males.
 

STPGopher said:
What is crap is discounting people questioning why this particular stop ending in death. That is your call.

I'll just leave this here for you:

From the linked article: "But in 2001, the Legislature asked for a racial profiling study and it fell to Kearney, then at the Institute on Race & Poverty at the University of Minnesota Law School, to conduct it. His study, using information supplied voluntarily by 65 law enforcement jurisdictions in the state, found a strong likelihood that racial and ethnic bias played a role in traffic stop policies and practices. Overall, officers stopped minority drivers at greater rates than whites and searched them at greater rates, but found contraband in those searches at lower rates than whites."


http://www.twincities.com/2016/07/0...d-52-times-by-police-was-is-racial-profiling/
Click to expand...

Jesus dude. Where did I discount it? The immediate, knee jerk reaction was to say that he was shot because he was black. My contention is that he was pulled over because the cops said they thought he looked like a robbery suspect. Since the robbery suspect photos I've seen look to be black males, is it not logical to assume that if someone is going to be pulled over as a suspect they are going to be a black male? Would pulling over a Hispanic/Asian/White male not be considered odd when the suspects are thought to be black?

I'm also not saying the cop didn't overreact. I have no idea if he did or he didn't. None of us were there.

And nowhere did I say that there aren't racial disparities. I just take issue with what I feel is the initial reaction of him being shot simply because he was black and vilifying the cop when he was probably only interested in doing his job and making it home at the end of the night. Just like everyone else, including the victim.
 

Does the whole argument go away if the cop is Hispanic? Time for some facts. Go to it.

Despite all the rhetoric, and cries of racism in cops, it is flat out dead wrong. That is not meant to be a pun. We are called to look inward. That includes accepting your own prejudices and ignorance. Lets cut to the chase. Not my writing, but that of Ms. McDonald and Mr. Hudson. Mr. Hudson is black:

1. Cops killed nearly twice as many whites as blacks in 2015. According to data compiled by The Washington Post, 50 percent of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, while 26 percent were black.

2. More whites and Hispanics die from police shootings than blacks. According to MacDonald, 12 percent of white and Hispanic shooting deaths were due to police officers, while only four percent of black shooting deaths were the result of police officers.

3. The Post's data does show that unarmed black men are more likely to die by the gun of a cop than an unarmed white man. At least five black victims had reportedly tried to grab the officer’s gun, or had been beating the cop with his own equipment. All but one of these was caught on camera. Some were shot from an accidental discharge triggered by their own assault on the officer. And two individuals included in the Post’s “unarmed black victims” category were struck by stray bullets aimed at someone else in justified cop shootings. If the victims were not the intended targets, then racism could have played no role in their deaths.

4. Black and Hispanic police officers are more likely to fire a gun at blacks than white officers. This is according to a Department of Justice report in 2015 about the Philadelphia Police Department, and is further confirmed that by a study conducted University of Pennsylvania criminologist Gary Ridgeway in 2015 that determined black cops were 3.3 times more likely to fire a gun than other cops at a crime scene.

5. Blacks are more likely to kill cops than be killed by cops. This is according to FBI data, which also found that 40 percent of cop killers are black. According to MacDonald, the police officer is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black than a cop killing an unarmed black person.

6. It would take cops 40 years to kill as many black men as have died at the hands of others black men in 2012 alone.
University of Toledo criminologist Dr. Richard R. Johnson examined the latest crime data from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports and Centers for Disease Control and found that an average of 4,472 black men were killed by other black men annually between Jan. 1, 2009, and Dec. 31, 2012.

---Heather McDonald
http://www.city-journal.org/contribu…/heather-mac-donald_122
---Jerome Hudson
http://www.breitbart.com/author/jerome-hudson/
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Nobody has said this.
Click to expand...

"The moral of the story is: be respectful, keep your hands visible, no sudden movements. Pass on to the team."

In fairness sudden needs to be defined.

It is clear that sides are split on this issue. Nothing posted in this thread will bridge this divide.

Cheers!
 


STPGopher said:
"The moral of the story is: be respectful, keep your hands visible, no sudden movements. Pass on to the team."

In fairness sudden needs to be defined.

It is clear that sides are split on this issue. Nothing posted in this thread will bridge this divide.

Cheers!
Click to expand...

Seems pretty self-explanatory to me.

I'm very open to good arguments. Unfortunately I haven't seen any. Just a lot of emotional ranting about cops waging war on young black men "for no reason"; without any clear video or statistical evidence to support it.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Seems pretty self-explanatory to me.

I'm very open to good arguments. Unfortunately I haven't seen any. Just a lot of emotional ranting about cops waging war on young black men "for no reason"; without any clear video or statistical evidence to support it.
Click to expand...

Questioning the officers behavior in this case is not irrational, unless one assumes the driver was less than for whatever reason. Players thinking dang, that could have been me (mistaken identity) is not irrational. A writer suggesting that the coaches maybe should talk to the players about an event that happened close to the campus and clearly bothered said players is not irrational. Well that is unless one considers said individuals less than.

QUOTE=Pompous Elitist;1223215]Here we go, conflating two different issues.

The issue is what these guys did or didn't do re: the shootings. Or what the officers did or didn't do.

Let's leave the larger issues if structural racism, etc for a separate debate. It is clear anger over those issues is coloring your views of the police. What isn't cool is fanning the flames of hatred and getting innocent people shot. Everybody needs to calm the hell down.

Is there much difference between bombing an airplane, shooting up a nightclub, or sniping police officers? Extremism. The End of Reason. Irrational emotions trumping logic and justice. Indict and try the officers if the evidence shows it. Not good to stereotype police just as its not kind to stereotype young black males.[/QUOTE]

Ha! If you can't see a correlation between getting pulled over more frequently because of race being a possible factor in why he was stopped in the first place, or you can't comprehend that bad policing, is what is being questioned, then again too big of a divide to bridge. I have no Idea

We'll just have to stick to discussing Gopher football.


Again Cheers!
 

zman said:
Jesus dude. Where did I discount it? The immediate, knee jerk reaction was to say that he was shot because he was black. My contention is that he was pulled over because the cops said they thought he looked like a robbery suspect. Since the robbery suspect photos I've seen look to be black males, is it not logical to assume that if someone is going to be pulled over as a suspect they are going to be a black male? Would pulling over a Hispanic/Asian/White male not be considered odd when the suspects are thought to be black?

I'm also not saying the cop didn't overreact. I have no idea if he did or he didn't. None of us were there.

And nowhere did I say that there aren't racial disparities. I just take issue with what I feel is the initial reaction of him being shot simply because he was black and vilifying the cop when he was probably only interested in doing his job and making it home at the end of the night. Just like everyone else, including the victim.
Click to expand...



There is a reason police run plates. Regarding being pulled over because of a robbery that happened days earlier just because you are black(no felony priors) is a bit odd don't you think?
 

STPGopher said:
There is a reason police run plates. Regarding being pulled over because of a robbery that happened days earlier just because you are black(no felony priors) is a bit odd don't you think?
Click to expand...

Actually, I have no idea. I'm not sure what running plates would do if the police did not know who the robbery suspects were. I got the impression they did not know who they were looking for. Once again, reading a bit between the lines of what little I know.
 



It seems quite obvious to me that some officers need better training in how to deal with some of these situations. There should be some State provided training that can make up for the disparity between very small police departments and larger ones that can afford more training. I am hearing that very few officers receive adequate training on how to deal with conceal and carry citizens. One officer stated that it is his rule to immediately ask if the driver has a weapon and to get it secured. Also, it seems that deescalation of tense situations is another area of need. The police have a very difficult job and it is only right to make sure they have all of the proper tools to keep them and the public safe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

alchemy2u said:
It seems quite obvious to me that some officers need better training in how to deal with some of these situations. There should be some State provided training that can make up for the disparity between very small police departments and larger ones that can afford more training. I am hearing that very few officers receive adequate training on how to deal with conceal and carry citizens. One officer stated that it is his rule to immediately ask if the driver has a weapon and to get it secured. Also, it seems that deescalation of tense situations is another area of need. The police have a very difficult job and it is only right to make sure they have all of the proper tools to keep them and the public safe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

+1
 


zman said:
Actually, I have no idea. I'm not sure what running plates would do if the police did not know who the robbery suspects were. I got the impression they did not know who they were looking for. Once again, reading a bit between the lines of what little I know.
Click to expand...

Running plates can reveal if there are any priors. This is assuming on my part that the vehicle belonged to the alleged suspect. This is also why there is a disconnect between those who say the the victim got pulled over for a taillight violation and those who say he was a robbery suspect. The taillight was probably rationalization for pulling him over knowing they wanted to look into an issue that happened days before. I am sure that without a photo they had to be phishing. More than one black malein their 30's drove through that area.
 



alchemy2u said:
It seems quite obvious to me that some young men need better training in how to deal with some of these situations. There should be some State provided training that can make up for the disparity between very small police departments and larger ones that can afford more training. I am hearing that very few officers receive adequate training on how to deal with conceal and carry citizens. One officer stated that it is his rule to immediately ask if the driver has a weapon and to get it secured. Also, it seems that deescalation of tense situations is another area of need. The police have a very difficult job and it is only right to make sure they have all of the proper tools to keep them and the public safe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I agree with all of this but I added the bold. I'm not sure how anyone can disagree with that.
 

DLguy said:
He reached for the gun and intended to shoot? Wow, you better contact the investigators and let them know, since this is likely new information to them. Many previous incidents that have made national news were very likely justified. These two most recent ones don't appear to be from the information we currently have.
Click to expand...

Someone reaching for a weapon is a reason to shoot. Why is he reaching for a weapon if he isn't intending to use it? This genius, is in response to your profound statement that reaching for a gun is not a reason to shoot the suspect. To which I asked why is he reaching for a weapon if he isn't intending to use it? Maybe you think the Officer should have asked a suspect who would reach for a gun, whether he was intending to shoot the Officer. Only if the suspect said "YES" should the Officer then draw his/her weapon and shoot.

Thanks for running the paragraphs together to try and further your cause after that. I never said that he reached for a gun and intended to shoot. There were two paragraphs with the second paragraph dealing with a visible gun and that it wasn't a racially motivated stop. But again you don't want to hear this because it doesn't help your agenda.
 

Runext07 said:
Someone reaching for a weapon is a reason to shoot. Why is he reaching for a weapon if he isn't intending to use it? This genius, is in response to your profound statement that reaching for a gun is not a reason to shoot the suspect. To which I asked why is he reaching for a weapon if he isn't intending to use it? Maybe you think the Officer should have asked a suspect who would reach for a gun, whether he was intending to shoot the Officer. Only if the suspect said "YES" should the Officer then draw his/her weapon and shoot.

Thanks for running the paragraphs together to try and further your cause after that. I never said that he reached for a gun and intended to shoot. There were two paragraphs with the second paragraph dealing with a visible gun and that it wasn't a racially motivated stop. But again you don't want to hear this because it doesn't help your agenda.
Click to expand...

Re-read his post. Slowly...
 

STPGopher said:
Running plates can reveal if there are any priors. This is assuming on my part that the vehicle belonged to the alleged suspect. This is also why there is a disconnect between those who say the the victim got pulled over for a taillight violation and those who say he was a robbery suspect. The taillight was probably rationalization for pulling him over knowing they wanted to look into an issue that happened days before. I am sure that without a photo they had to be phishing. More than one black malein their 30's drove through that area.
Click to expand...

The transcript indicated he matched the physical description thus the reason for the stop.
 


Mods, please move to the off topic board. This has been off topic for far too long.
 

Mulligan said:
How ironic. You might do the same. Just as believable the cop panicked. Your "racism is everywhere" is quite glib and pretty stupid if you haven't actually had to experience it on a consistent basis. I'm white and really haven't other than being subjected to it in the service during the 60's for a short while. I've read enough history and biography to know it most definitely would be much different if I wasn't white. Love how you law and order guys ignore all the other basic rights and freedoms when they're denied to others.
Click to expand...

"you law and order guys". Hmmm. Wait, is this your photo?

CjaACZcUUAECuyo.jpg
 

Spoofin said:
Sorry Oleboy, but your response is part of the problem here. Disagree with PE view point if you like, but he spoke to the man's actions and not his race.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

nah man the problem is that police have been harassing, abusing and killing black men without consequence for generations, not my response to other people's response to it. Get real
 

zman said:
Jesus dude. Where did I discount it? The immediate, knee jerk reaction was to say that he was shot because he was black. My contention is that he was pulled over because the cops said they thought he looked like a robbery suspect. Since the robbery suspect photos I've seen look to be black males, is it not logical to assume that if someone is going to be pulled over as a suspect they are going to be a black male? Would pulling over a Hispanic/Asian/White male not be considered odd when the suspects are thought to be black?

I'm also not saying the cop didn't overreact. I have no idea if he did or he didn't. None of us were there.

And nowhere did I say that there aren't racial disparities. I just take issue with what I feel is the initial reaction of him being shot simply because he was black and vilifying the cop when he was probably only interested in doing his job and making it home at the end of the night. Just like everyone else, including the victim.
Click to expand...

we black men have been pulled over and harassed in the name of 'fitting a description' so many times it's turned into a comedy set so get out of here with that nonsense reasoning. I've 'matched' descriptions and been detained because I was black and my friend had a hoodie on. If you want your head to stay in the sand keep your mouth shut

 

alchemy2u said:
It seems quite obvious to me that some officers need better training in how to deal with some of these situations. There should be some State provided training that can make up for the disparity between very small police departments and larger ones that can afford more training. I am hearing that very few officers receive adequate training on how to deal with conceal and carry citizens. One officer stated that it is his rule to immediately ask if the driver has a weapon and to get it secured. Also, it seems that deescalation of tense situations is another area of need. The police have a very difficult job and it is only right to make sure they have all of the proper tools to keep them and the public safe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

This assumes that police feel they're not doing their job correctly. It also assumes that their system of policing isn't working exactly as it's supposed to. Why are police officers trained far less than soldiers while being far more protected when they physically harm people? When the police are an occupying force in black neighborhoods and treat black people in white neighborhoods as intruders, hostility and aggression are what you get. No amount of training will change that. They system itself needs to change. And sure, policing is a tough job but it's 100% voluntary. People have more empathy for these workers than those they harm that have no choice in the matter.
 

oleboy41 said:
If you want your head to stay in the sand keep your mouth shut
Click to expand...

Just because you don't like my answers doesn't mean that is going to happen. We can just disagree.
 

oleboy41 said:
we black men have been pulled over and harassed in the name of 'fitting a description' so many times it's turned into a comedy set so get out of here with that nonsense reasoning. I've 'matched' descriptions and been detained because I was black and my friend had a hoodie on. If you want your head to stay in the sand keep your mouth shut

Click to expand...

You are correct. Sadly, we all have stories. Though a noble effort, I don't think some on this board will ever understand how an 18 to 23 year old player could be terrified of just a normal traffic stop. Pulling someone over for having a broad nose(probably told them the reason they were pulled over was due to a broken taillight) would include a significant number of people.

Whether some will admit it, they made Marcus's twitter point! I trust that coach Claeys (and staff) will do what is necessary to help his players any way he can.
 

zman said:
Just because you don't like my answers doesn't mean that is going to happen. We can just disagree.
Click to expand...

Its not that I don't like your answers, its that your flawed reasoning is dangerous and what allows people like you to have stood by and watched as police have harassed and killed black men for years with impunity. The 'wait for the facts' crowd and the 'but he matched a description' crowd are one in the same. Black folks have been fighting this crap for years so I have no tolerance for those ignorant enough to buy that garbage. Black men always fit a description or are suspicious or are blah blah blah when we're doing nothing wrong, regardless of where we are. My father must have matched a description every day when he was getting followed home daily when he moved to Apple Valley. I was suspicious all those times I was stopped and given warnings for things like obstructions in my windshield, aka tree air fresheners. So again, if you want to remain ignorant, at least respect our humanity enough to do so silently and don't bring others down with you.
 

oleboy41 said:
So again, if you want to remain ignorant, at least respect our humanity enough to do so silently and don't bring others down with you.
Click to expand...

This really isn't a productive discussion. Peace.
 


oleboy41 said:
Its not that I don't like your answers, its that your flawed reasoning is dangerous and what allows people like you to have stood by and watched as police have harassed and killed black men for years with impunity. The 'wait for the facts' crowd and the 'but he matched a description' crowd are one in the same. Black folks have been fighting this crap for years so I have no tolerance for those ignorant enough to buy that garbage. Black men always fit a description or are suspicious or are blah blah blah when we're doing nothing wrong, regardless of where we are. My father must have matched a description every day when he was getting followed home daily when he moved to Apple Valley. I was suspicious all those times I was stopped and given warnings for things like obstructions in my windshield, aka tree air fresheners. So again, if you want to remain ignorant, at least respect our humanity enough to do so silently and don't bring others down with you.
Click to expand...

+1. People need to be able to walk in another person's shoes to truly understand that the world isn't only based upon their own experiences. Obviously, your father didn't have to be "doing something wrong" to get pulled over.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

oleboy41 said:
This assumes that police feel they're not doing their job correctly. It also assumes that their system of policing isn't working exactly as it's supposed to. Why are police officers trained far less than soldiers while being far more protected when they physically harm people? When the police are an occupying force in black neighborhoods and treat black people in white neighborhoods as intruders, hostility and aggression are what you get. No amount of training will change that. They system itself needs to change. And sure, policing is a tough job but it's 100% voluntary. People have more empathy for these workers than those they harm that have no choice in the matter.
Click to expand...

It takes a long time to change people's attitudes and fears. Training is a start in shaping the attitudes and to ratchet down the level of force needed to handle situations. Training is a way to change the system of policing. Sometimes you have to feed the medicine with a little sugar.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom