Jacob Knuth Commits!

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MNVCGUY said:
I just wish we would have had these Leidner debates at some point in the past, not sure why it has taken so long for them to come up. :)

Leidner gets way more crap than he deserves but Remember Murray is trying really hard to make him look like something he wasn't as well. Touting his career numbers at a school that hasn't exactly been a QB hotbed isn't as impressive as he thinks it is. Especially when the areas where Leidner stands out are in terms of QB rushing which isn't exactly the metric most non-wishbone schools would want their QB to excel in.
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Everybody tells me Leidner's numbers were unimpressive. Yet no one seems to want to guess how long we wait until the Gophers produce a QB who will top some of those numbers.

The records certainly aren't unassailable, but they aren't bad — not for a QB who was, as some would have it, plain awful.
 

amk8930 said:
I'm saying that I don't see where the hype over this recruit is. I hope he becomes the next Drew Brees, Steve Young, etc. and I like that this guy dreamed of being on the Gophers for years, is a big fan of PJ and his style, etc. and is getting his dream come true.

However, on the field, nothing pops out about him. Lets be real, even the top South Dakota High School Football Class (which I don't even know if he played in or not), isn't exactly the best in the country. Even if he plays the highest class in South Dakota, his numbers aren't jumping off the page. I know it's a team game and line, wide receivers, etc. make a difference, but he doesn't jump off the page from what I can see.

I'm obviously not a recruiter, not an expert, but based on what I do see about him (besides attitude, etc.), I'm just not impressed. I hope he turns out great and I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong (especially if it means a Minnesota team wins). For right now though, I'm not impressed by his on the field work.
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He does play in the highest class of SD football which is 11AAA. Its made up of mostly Sioux Falls area schools, Rapid City, Aberdeen, and Watertown.
 

RememberMurray said:
Everybody tells me Leidner's numbers were unimpressive. Yet no one seems to want to guess how long we wait until the Gophers produce a QB who will top some of those numbers.

The records certainly aren't unassailable, but they aren't bad — not for a QB who was, as some would have it, plain awful.
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You mean after Tanner Morgan? Because if Morgan plays a full season in 2021 he is likely to pass Leidner in pretty much every category outside of I guess rushing TDs. And he will have done it in essentially 3 full seasons of starting as opposed to the 4 full ones Mitch got.

In Fleck's system, any QB that plays 4 full seasons will produce numbers that will dwarf anything that Mitch was able to do (again outside of maybe rushing TDs).
 


MNVCGUY said:
You mean after Tanner Morgan? Because if Morgan plays a full season in 2021 he is likely to pass Leidner in pretty much every category outside of I guess rushing TDs. And he will have done it in essentially 3 full seasons of starting as opposed to the 4 full ones Mitch got.

In Fleck's system, any QB that plays 4 full seasons will produce numbers that will dwarf anything that Mitch was able to do (again outside of maybe rushing TDs).
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Having Tanner pass you in stats doesn't seem like a bad thing ...
 



RememberMurray said:
If Tanner passes Mitch in Total TDs and Wins as a Starter, that will be awesome. Tanner needs six more wins to tie, and 7 to pass Leidner. Not sure where he stands on Total TDs.
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Just like with a baseball pitcher, win/loss record is not a great way to evaluate the skill level of a QB. Obviously record matters but there are so many other factors that go into it.

That said, if you are going to look at that metric the only fair way to do it is to compare players with the same number of opportunities. Tanner is within striking distance of Mitch in terms of wins and has done it in 18 fewer games.

You asked about total TD - Mitch has 69 (36 passing, 33 rushing). Tanner has 48 (46 passing, 2 rushing) in 18 fewer games. So if Morgan is the starter and we play a full 2021 season he will almost certainly pass Leidner in this stat as well. And it will be in fewer games.

There is no doubt that Mitch's rushing TD total is impressive for a QB. Near the goal line he was clearly the number one option in the way most QBs are not. On the majority of teams, a big chunk of those TDs would have gone to a RB.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Just like with a baseball pitcher, win/loss record is not a great way to evaluate the skill level of a QB. Obviously record matters but there are so many other factors that go into it.

That said, if you are going to look at that metric the only fair way to do it is to compare players with the same number of opportunities. Tanner is within striking distance of Mitch in terms of wins and has done it in 18 fewer games.

You asked about total TD - Mitch has 69 (36 passing, 33 rushing). Tanner has 48 (46 passing, 2 rushing) in 18 fewer games. So if Morgan is the starter and we play a full 2021 season he will almost certainly pass Leidner in this stat as well. And it will be in fewer games.

There is no doubt that Mitch's rushing TD total is impressive for a QB. Near the goal line he was clearly the number one option in the way most QBs are not. On the majority of teams, a big chunk of those TDs would have gone to a RB.
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I've noticed that many people here believe that Leidner's wins were less impressive than other QB's wins. And Leidner's strong points were, for some, far less important than they would appear, at first glance.

I guess I'm old school; I like the wins (no matter who the opponent) and I like TDs (no matter if by rush or pass). Those two metrics tell me a fair amount about the program's trajectory when the QB in question was playing the most important position on the field.

To me, the fact that Morgan is likely to pass Leidner in some really key stats is more a tribute to Morgan's play than it is evidence of Leidner's supposed lousiness.
 

Urbandale said:
I'm willing to bet that at least one quarterback transfers out in two months at the conclusion of spring practice.
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I’m betting we don’t see one. I’ll hedge and say IF one does, it will be Clark.
 



btowngopher said:
I’m betting we don’t see one. I’ll hedge and say IF one does, it will be Clark.
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Solid hedge. I just like the fact that we're not talking about quarterbacks transferring because they're no good and changing position to linebacker or tight end, but because the peer talent is better and there's not a clear path to playing time.
 

Urbandale said:
Solid hedge. I just like the fact that we're not talking about quarterbacks transferring because they're no good and changing position to linebacker or tight end, but because the peer talent is better and there's not a clear path to playing time.
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Well, it depends what kind of cube that Fleck wants. It seems like Kramer and Athan perhaps fit the mold of Tanner a bit better, with perhaps better athleticism to boot. While Clark is this big, pro-style slinger. If that's not really what Fleck wants, then it's kinda odd he even took him. I guess you just don't say no to a 4*.
 

MplsGopher said:
Well, it depends what kind of cube that Fleck wants. It seems like Kramer and Athan perhaps fit the mold of Tanner a bit better, with perhaps better athleticism to boot. While Clark is this big, pro-style slinger. If that's not really what Fleck wants, then it's kinda odd he even took him. I guess you just don't say no to a 4*.
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I would say Kramer and Athan are definitely more athletic than Morgan, but I think Fleck views that as a bonus rather than a necessity.
 

RememberMurray said:
I've noticed that many people here believe that Leidner's wins were less impressive than other QB's wins. And Leidner's strong points were, for some, far less important than they would appear, at first glance.

I guess I'm old school; I like the wins (no matter who the opponent) and I like TDs (no matter if by rush or pass). Those two metrics tell me a fair amount about the program's trajectory when the QB in question was playing the most important position on the field.

To me, the fact that Morgan is likely to pass Leidner in some really key stats is more a tribute to Morgan's play than it is evidence of Leidner's supposed lousiness.
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If your only beef is with those who say Leidner was a terrible QB then I'm with you. He wasn't terrible but he also was not a great QB by any stretch of the imagination. And in 20 years I think very few people will consider him when they think of all time great QBs at the University of Minnesota (and there have not been many to begin with).
 




RememberMurray said:
I've noticed that many people here believe that Leidner's wins were less impressive than other QB's wins. And Leidner's strong points were, for some, far less important than they would appear, at first glance.

I guess I'm old school; I like the wins (no matter who the opponent) and I like TDs (no matter if by rush or pass). Those two metrics tell me a fair amount about the program's trajectory when the QB in question was playing the most important position on the field.

To me, the fact that Morgan is likely to pass Leidner in some really key stats is more a tribute to Morgan's play than it is evidence of Leidner's supposed lousiness.
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Some wins are more impressive than others. B1G wins are usually more impressive than non-con. Within the B1G, beating some teams is more impressive than beating others.

Rushing or passing TDs are great! But it does matter if those are a function of execution or just a function of brute force trialing. Mitch's rushing totals (yards or TDs) are not impressive given he had a poor YPC, was slow, and would consistently take multiple rushing attempts near the goal line. Against skilled competition, Mitch got stuffed. This isn't all on him - we've exhausted the conversation of the old regime's play calling. But the dude could not run well.

Morgan has played at a much higher level and I am happy to have him. Also happy to have Jacob join the room and hope he can earn his way onto the field!
 

SamSquatch said:
Leidner’s stats against B1G/Power 5 were terrible. Dude moved like molasses - ran a 4.93 40. His stats are so prolific because Kill/Claeys completely bungled QB recruiting and we had nobody else for 4 years. They also ran him constantly for little success. Wobble duck thrower.

I hope Knuth can perform at a much higher level, because if he only makes it to Leidner level, he should not see the field.

I am excited by this commitment.Its clear he has potential and will be joining a strong QB room.
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He is t-3 for career rushing TDs. There was some success there. I’m sure many were short but they are still TDs
 

RememberMurray said:
I've noticed that many people here believe that Leidner's wins were less impressive than other QB's wins. And Leidner's strong points were, for some, far less important than they would appear, at first glance.

I guess I'm old school; I like the wins (no matter who the opponent) and I like TDs (no matter if by rush or pass). Those two metrics tell me a fair amount about the program's trajectory when the QB in question was playing the most important position on the field.

To me, the fact that Morgan is likely to pass Leidner in some really key stats is more a tribute to Morgan's play than it is evidence of Leidner's supposed lousiness.
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I like wins too and Leidner did have some good ones, maybe it’s cause it’s longer ago, but I just don’t recall any big Leidner games or iconic plays/moments. With Morgan we got the near perfect Purdue and PSU games and the pass to Bateman vs Indiana, the Fresno and Georgia St heroics.
 

btowngopher said:
I like wins too and Leidner did have some good ones, maybe it’s cause it’s longer ago, but I just don’t recall any big Leidner games or iconic plays/moments. With Morgan we got the near perfect Purdue and PSU games and the pass to Bateman vs Indiana, the Fresno and Georgia St heroics.
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If we're comparing Leidner to Morgan, Tanner is clearly the better QB. No question. Certainly he's the better passer. Obviously, Leidner was a better runner. Two completely different QB styles, two vastly different offenses, and they are way different athletes, size-wise. Leidner more physical, while Morgan is much, much more of a precision passer. Leidner reminded me a bit of Joe Kapp. Morgan, in style, reminds me of Drew Brees.
 

MNVCGUY said:
If your only beef is with those who say Leidner was a terrible QB then I'm with you. He wasn't terrible but he also was not a great QB by any stretch of the imagination. And in 20 years I think very few people will consider him when they think of all time great QBs at the University of Minnesota (and there have not been many to begin with).
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It's my only beef. I'd never claim Mitch was a great QB. I doubt if Leidner himself would make that claim.

I just get tired of people putting him down. He played his heart out for the U, was a class act all the way, and he left behind a very respectable record and legacy, by historical Gopher QB standards.

Not that I expect to convert anybody.
 

MNVCGUY said:
You mean after Tanner Morgan? Because if Morgan plays a full season in 2021 he is likely to pass Leidner in pretty much every category outside of I guess rushing TDs. And he will have done it in essentially 3 full seasons of starting as opposed to the 4 full ones Mitch got.

In Fleck's system, any QB that plays 4 full seasons will produce numbers that will dwarf anything that Mitch was able to do (again outside of maybe rushing TDs).
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You're right, the greatest Gopher QB in my lifetime playing a considerably more pass-friendly system with considerably better receivers will surpass Mitch Leidner during his 4th season on campus but that's only if we ignore the 33 rushing TDs (cause those don't matter). I'm not so sure this is the best argument against Mitch's career.

I think Tanner is the best Gopher QB in my lifetime, but what Mitch accomplished was impressive. His durability and toughness (alone) was impressive. He wasn't a great passer but for all of the crappy Gopher players a message board could obsess over (not saying you), picking Mitch seems like a rather strange one.
 

Every thread about a U QB—past, present or future—seems quickly to devolve into a bank-and-forth recitation of the upside and the downside of Mitch Leidner. Same arguments repeated over and over, time and again, always hijacking the thread and obliterating the original topic. I’ll say this for Leidner: he must have been very noteworthy to live so long, rent free, in the heads of so many Gopherholers. I am in the camp that thinks Mitch accomplished a lot, given the offense we ran. He played hard and he played hurt. The stats bear out what he accomplished. Certainly wish he was more accurate, but he saved a lot of games with his legs. I am, however, more than content to move on to current QBs. Maybe we need to start a fresh thread on Jacob Knuth.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
You're right, the greatest Gopher QB in my lifetime playing a considerably more pass-friendly system with considerably better receivers will surpass Mitch Leidner during his 4th season on campus but that's only if we ignore the 33 rushing TDs (cause those don't matter). I'm not so sure this is the best argument against Mitch's career.

I think Tanner is the best Gopher QB in my lifetime, but what Mitch accomplished was impressive. His durability and toughness (alone) was impressive. He wasn't a great passer but for all of the crappy Gopher players a message board could obsess over (not saying you), picking Mitch seems like a rather strange one.
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He rushed for 300 yards dude, that is legit 30 a game. He wasn't busting games open w/his legs, and if he did, consider it making up for sailing a throw on a slant. He legit averaged 3.4 ypc, not that awesome.

He couldn't do the one thing we needed him to do, hit an open receiver to move the ball down the field quickly late in games, or minimize mistakes in big games to keep the lead. Guy sucked other than being able to run for 3 yards a carry and try to drain the clock cus the D was stacked.
 

MinnGopher said:
He rushed for 300 yards dude, that is legit 30 a game. He wasn't busting games open w/his legs, and if he did, consider it making up for sailing a throw on a slant. He legit averaged 3.4 ypc, not that awesome.

He couldn't do the one thing we needed him to do, hit an open receiver to move the ball down the field quickly late in games, or minimize mistakes in big games to keep the lead. Guy sucked other than being able to run for 3 yards a carry and try to drain the clock cus the D was stacked.
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The sacks are going to drag that average down quite a bit. He was relatively effective at moving the chains as a runner and in the redzone.
 

die hard gopher said:
The sacks are going to drag that average down quite a bit. He was relatively effective at moving the chains as a runner and in the redzone.
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Sweet, so his biggest strength was doing what an RB on our team could do (David Cobb), but not as well.

I will never understand the boner people have over Leidners toughness or rushing ability, he was miserable. If you want to factor in his rushing yards, he averaged 187.6 yards total, passing and rushing combined a game. That is awful. If you think that is a recipe to win you games on the offensive side of the ball, I'm sorry. The only reason we were able to win any games w/Leidner is because of the D that Claeys/Kill/Sawvel put together.

Leidner threw over 300 yards just twice in his career, both in blowout losses. He ran for over 100 twice as well, San Jose state when he threw it only 12x, and against Nebraska.
 

Gophergrandpa said:
Every thread about a U QB—past, present or future—seems quickly to devolve into a bank-and-forth recitation of the upside and the downside of Mitch Leidner. Same arguments repeated over and over, time and again, always hijacking the thread and obliterating the original topic. I’ll say this for Leidner: he must have been very noteworthy to live so long, rent free, in the heads of so many Gopherholers. I am in the camp that thinks Mitch accomplished a lot, given the offense we ran. He played hard and he played hurt. The stats bear out what he accomplished. Certainly wish he was more accurate, but he saved a lot of games with his legs. I am, however, more than content to move on to current QBs. Maybe we need to start a fresh thread on Jacob Knuth.
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The Leidner conversation should not occur. It started here when someone wished that Knuth could play at a Leidner level, but said this was unlikely because of Leidner's high level of skill. The Leidner arguments will die completely when he is no longer deified for his sub-mediocre tenure. It is the Leidner champions who insist on this constant revisiting, and I would agree that we should focus on the exciting talent in the existing room, augmented by the addition of Jacob.
 

SamSquatch said:
The Leidner arguments will die completely when he is no longer deified for his sub-mediocre tenure.
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SamSquatch said:
The Leidner conversation should not occur. It started here when someone wished that Knuth could play at a Leidner level, but said this was unlikely because of Leidner's high level of skill. The Leidner arguments will die completely when he is no longer deified for his sub-mediocre tenure. It is the Leidner champions who insist on this constant revisiting, and I would agree that we should focus on the exciting talent in the existing room, augmented by the addition of Jacob.
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Who posted that, about Leidner's "high level of skill"? Which post was it?

Also, which post or posts were attempts to "deify"?

de-i-fy:
— worship, regard, or treat (someone or something) as a god.
"she was deified by the early Romans as a fertility goddess"
 

The fact that we haven’t had a QB drafted in nearly 50 years (1972) is sad and speaks volumes for the lack of identifying and developing talent at that position.
 

As I paged through all of this stuff I feel sorry for the kid who just committed and comes to this site to see people knocking the commitment and then totally talking about someone else other than him. I'm not even going to mention the other name. If you want to discuss the merits of the other player start a new thread. Right now I wish Jacob Knuth a big congrats and welcome to Minnesota!
 

RememberMurray said:
Who posted that, about Leidner's "high level of skill"? Which post was it?

Also, which post or posts were attempts to "deify"?

de-i-fy:
— worship, regard, or treat (someone or something) as a god.
"she was deified by the early Romans as a fertility goddess"
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You did dude. It's not useful to get caught up in paraphrasing and "deify" was hyperbole even if accurate.

A cleaner summary is that you believe Leidner was a good QB based off his career stats, and that it is unlikely a recent commit could achieve the same level of play. Others believe he was a bad QB. I believe he was a bad QB, and think it is likely several of our QBs in the current room can play at a higher level, including our newest Gopher.

Again, welcome aboard Jacob! Think you will be a great addition to the squad!
 

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