I know how to end the Adam Weber debate....

[Mulligan]

The large majority of Weber critics would have been satisfied if Brewster had put Gray in as QB in the 3rd or 4th quarter of games when the Gophers were already too far behind to win. Many coaches do this kind of thing to give their starter a rest and their back-up some experience. But I don't recall Brewster doing this even one time over the course of the last two seasons. If he had we would already know what Gray's potential is as a QB, and he would have had ample opportunity to gain experience for this year.

In my opinion, Brewster's insistence that Weber play QB of almost every minute of every game for four years regardless of the score was a huge mistake and one of the reasons many fans wanted Maturi to fire him.

One of the stranger things about this whole deal is that Gray was Brewster's most heralded recruit. So it made no sense in several ways to give Gray such little and disjointed playing time unless Brewster felt his most heralded recruit had no chance of being a decent QB. Coach Kill is going to either make those of us who defended Brewster look even dumber or he is going to validate Brewster's handling of Gray. Hope he makes me look even dumber. I've had practice at it and can handle it.

 

[monk10]

If he absolutely lights it up, and the team does great, then sorry, you and the coaches will have been proven wrong, and he deserved a shot. If he looks lost a lot and has a low completion % and throws a lot of picks, then we can probably assume that Brew and co were right to play Adam. And frankly, no matter how it turns out, I still cannot believe that he didn't get to play IN ONE SERIES ALL YEAR ON A TEAM THAT COULDN"T WIN A GAME UNTIL BREW WAS FIRED! He couldn't even get a series in a blowout loss against OSU where the fans were booing Weber! If Gray lights it up, that will be proof that the coaches were protecting themselves from criticism, and not Gray from making mistakes.

Serious question, have you had to study logic reasoning at all?

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

One of the stranger things about this whole deal is that Gray was Brewster's most heralded recruit. So it made no sense in several ways to give Gray such little and disjointed playing time unless Brewster felt his most heralded recruit had no chance of being a decent QB. Coach Kill is going to either make those of us who defended Brewster look even dumber or he is going to validate Brewster's handling of Gray. Hope he makes me look even dumber. I've had practice at it and can handle it.

I've said this repeatedly and for some reason it just doesn't seem to resonate. I continue to laugh my tail off at all of those that think Brewster had this "thing" for Weber.... Gray was Brewster's most prized recruit. Period. PERIOD. You don't think if it was EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE that Gray would have gotten the nod at some point? How WIDE did the gap have to be for Gray to not get some playing time? Gray was Brewster's guy. He was going down in flames. You don't think he would want to go down with HIS guy under center?? Give it a rest...

Gray is another year older now and NOW the Rodents are going to be sporting an offense that much much better utilizes Gray's skill set. I think the new OC will do his best to put Gray in positions to be successful and I think Gray could have a really good year, although it doesn't alleviate my concerns that he can't hit the broad side of a barn with the ball

 

[dpodoll68]

You don't think if it was EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE that Gray would have gotten the nod at some point?

No. No, I do not. Brewster is not a very good coach. His current salary in the field of coaching is the same as mine - $0.00. Brewster may have thought that it wasn't very close, but none of us will ever know, because Weber played almost every single snap even in ridiculously lopsided blowout losses.

You don't think he would want to go down with HIS guy under center?? Give it a rest...

Why on earth would his decision at QB be exempt from the countless bone-headed decisions he made during his Gopher coaching tenure?

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

No. No, I do not. Brewster is not a very good coach. His current salary in the field of coaching is the same as mine - $0.00. Brewster may have thought that it wasn't very close, but none of us will ever know, because Weber played almost every single snap even in ridiculously lopsided blowout losses.

Why on earth would his decision at QB be exempt from the countless bone-headed decisions he made during his Gopher coaching tenure?

Well, when you put it like that, how can I argue with logic like that?

Maybe I'm wrong but I find it hard to believe that Brewster had the one and only say so as to who was going to be the QB in his 4 years at the "U". Sooooo, none of the OC's had any say in the matter? Or, are they all just plain stupid too, just like Brewster? Why don't we just simplify things and say that every coach that set foot on campus the last 4 years was a complete moron.

It sounds like Kill would be best served by resolving all player personnel (and playcalling while we're at it) issues by using the method of "Message Board Consensus". Because, I think we can all agree that "guy on a message board" is head and shoulders above most D-1 football coaches when it comes to football savvy.

 

[dpodoll68]

Maybe I'm wrong but I find it hard to believe that Brewster had the one and only say so as to who was going to be the QB in his 4 years at the "U". Sooooo, none of the OC's had any say in the matter? Or, are they all just plain stupid too, just like Brewster? Why don't we just simplify things and say that every coach that set foot on campus the last 4 years was a complete moron.

I've never once said Brewster is stupid. A person doesn't get to where he has in life by being unintelligent. In fact, I've said repeatedly that he is a brilliant recruiter. If I were a newly-hired college head coach, he is one of the first calls I'd make, as I'd love to have him on my staff. I would just keep him as far away from player development, play-calling, depth chart creation, etc. as possible. He is just, to put it kindly, not very good at on-field coaching and accroutements. I have to believe that there were factions of the coaching staff very interested in giving Gray the job on at least a full-series basis. How hard did they push Brewster to that end? I don't know, and neither do you. How hard would you push if your employment, livelihood, and salary were controlled by a man who fired his previous offensive coordinator because he wouldn't bend to his will?

It sounds like Kill would be best served by resolving all player personnel (and playcalling while we're at it) issues by using the method of "Message Board Consensus". Because, I think we can all agree that "guy on a message board" is head and shoulders above most D-1 football coaches when it comes to football savvy.

I've never once said I'm smarter or savvier than "most D-1 football coaches", or even any. All I ever asked for was a chance to be proven wrong on the field. Some players are "gamers" and don't practice very well, but light it up when they get the chance to perform on the big stage. You don't know, I don't know, none of us will ever know whether Weber or Gray was the best person for the job in 2009 and 2010. We never got a chance to find out. One thing I do know, unequivocally - Weber was not a good, or even average, BCS-level QB.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

I've never once said Brewster is stupid. A person doesn't get to where he has in life by being unintelligent. In fact, I've said repeatedly that he is a brilliant recruiter. If I were a newly-hired college head coach, he is one of the first calls I'd make, as I'd love to have him on my staff. I would just keep him as far away from player development, play-calling, depth chart creation, etc. as possible. He is just, to put it kindly, not very good at on-field coaching and accroutements. I have to believe that there were factions of the coaching staff very interested in giving Gray the job on at least a full-series basis. How hard did they push Brewster to that end? I don't know, and neither do you. How hard would you push if your employment, livelihood, and salary were controlled by a man who fired his previous offensive coordinator because he wouldn't bend to his will?

I've never once said I'm smarter or savvier than "most D-1 football coaches", or even any. All I ever asked for was a chance to be proven wrong on the field. Some players are "gamers" and don't practice very well, but light it up when they get the chance to perform on the big stage. You don't know, I don't know, none of us will ever know whether Weber or Gray was the best person for the job in 2009 and 2010. We never got a chance to find out. One thing I do know, unequivocally - Weber was not a good, or even average, BCS-level QB.

I can accept that. Well stated. My problem is, too many "guy on a message board" types actually DO think they are smarter than D-1 football coaches, which is laughable.

Don't get me wrong, I would have liked to see Gray take more snaps last year. No doubt about it. I think at the very least he would have put certain pressure on defenses that Weber did not just because of his mobility.

I guess it's just frightening to think that Brewster's reasons could have legitimately been that Gray was so far behind Weber and we're now putting all of our eggs in the Gray basket. That's a little scary to me right now.

 

[Silvio]

These are just my opinions:

Weber gave this team the best chance to win during his playing time here.

For his first three years I didn't disagree with the fact that he took the vast majority of snaps. He appeared to be a QB that showed some improvement but made mistakes playing on a below average team that appeared to be improving. (First year no bowl game, years 2 & 3 bowl games).

He gave the team the best chance to win games his senior year, but MG should have played series in blowout games after the season was lost (after USD). I can understand why a lame duck coaching staff allowed a senior team leader to continue to play what may be his final real games of his football career.

I also think that MG's time at QB in the last two games while not great, seemed to jump start and give a spark to the offense. Weber was able to use this park to lead the offense and team to a couple wins including against a rival.

The reality is that this is a gray issue and not black and white as many of us would like. For all of Brewster's faults I thought (up until this past year) that he had the program going in the right direction. Sure he had the bad losses at the end of seasons and all the coordinator turnover, but he basically had the team going to the same bowls that Mason did. I also think with the loss to NDSU he was coaching for his job the last three years and wasn't able to get enough rope to give solid playing time to Weber and develop his backup. That is what happens when the team didn't ever blow out opponents.

I also think their was tremendous pressure to play Weber and for Weber to succeed from the fans, M club, and AD department (he was a MN kid, a Legacy kid, and by all appearances an actual student athlete.)

 

[monk10]

Some players are "gamers" and don't practice very well, but light it up when they get the chance to perform on the big stage.

My understanding of everything Kill has said is that if you can't practice (perform) like you would in a game, you won't play. I'm making a logical leap, but I'm guessing by what Kill said and by what you are stating is that Gray also wouldn't have played much if Weber was still here.

Maybe too much of a logical leap from what you said and what you meant?

 

[monk10]

Don't get me wrong, I would have liked to see Gray take more snaps last year.

Me too, and I'm on record as stating that Weber was the best QB on the team. (Since the last time I checked you only got to start QB's on your team not on anybody else's team).

 

[Section2]

Serious question, have you had to study logic reasoning at all?

A serious question like that deserves a serious answer: I took a logic class at Normandale CC, took a couple logic classes at Devry, and then I just recently completed Logical Internet Arguing 1002 at National American University. So, with all of that studying, you can imagine my surprise at seeing your critique of my logic. Perhaps you'd like to tell me all the logical reasoning problems with my argument? That would be more interesting to me.

 

[monk10]

I asked you a serious question, because I just wanted to say that you just created a deductive fallacy. It would be easier just to say that then to try to explain to you what it means and then try to walk you through your argument on how you fell into it.

 

[Section2]

I asked you a serious question, because I just wanted to say that you just created a deductive fallacy. It would be easier just to say that then to try to explain to you what it means and then try to walk you through your argument on how you fell into it.

Which argument in particular? That was a whole paragraph.

 

[monk10]

Using Gray's performance this year as a base for an argument around Gray starting last year. One could actually argue with me that is a composition fallacy, and I would probably defer, since the summary of variables happening this year are different then summary of variables happening last year.

 

[Section2]

Using Gray's performance this year as a base for an argument around Gray starting last year. One could actually argue with me that is a composition fallacy, and I would probably defer, since the summary of variables happening this year are different then summary of variables happening last year.

Look man, I'm not impressed with your academia, no offense. It's not hard to figure out what a deductive fallacy is without being at class that day.
The fact is that the Weber apologists are trying to create a scenario where they can not be wrong. Weber played all the games and almost all the snaps, so we can't definitively prove them wrong in saying that Weber was the best option. Everything else is only opinion, I understand that I cannot logically prove that I'm right. But in my opinion, Gray lighting it up and making first team all conference proves that he deserved a shot, and might have made a difference in a disastrous season. The coaches (who had more information to base a decision on) did not think so, but that does not mean that they made the correct call. For example: We don't know how quickly Gray would have adapted if given the reigns, but we'll get a decent idea by watching him grow this year. We will get an idea if he is a more of a gamer than a practice qb by watching him this year and hearing the coaches evaluate his performance. We'll learn a lot, and fill in a lot of the blanks. In my opinion, and I feel strongly, Gray dominating would prove that he deserved a chance and that brew misused him.

 

[monk10]

He did get a shot, and he lost to Weber. Did I miss something in your understanding of that he didn't get a shot?

I understand the concept that people didn't like the fact that Weber was continually picked over his backups. It wasn't just one coach it was multiple coaches. Every coach picked Weber. There are a lot of people that fall under the 'u mad brah' because of this.

In addition if Kill is talking up Gray he will be talking up about how he practices and prepares. That has been a Kill foundation since he got here. You have to be good in practice to play in a game. Maybe I missing your understanding of what you are expecting the coaches to say when they evaluate his performances?

 

[Section2]

He did get a shot, and he lost to Weber. Did I miss something in your understanding of that he didn't get a shot?

I understand the concept that people didn't like the fact that Weber was continually picked over his backups. It wasn't just one coach it was multiple coaches. Every coach picked Weber. There are a lot of people that fall under the 'u mad brah' because of this.

In addition if Kill is talking up Gray he will be talking up about how he practices and prepares. That has been a Kill foundation since he got here. You have to be good in practice to play in a game. Maybe I missing your understanding of what you are expecting the coaches to say when they evaluate his performances?

he didn't get a shot to start a game or even play a complete series. he has only played one complete series in his career: result? TD drive. The coaches determined that he got a fair shot, but we the fans don't know that to be true. The coach who presumably made the final call is currently unemployed. You claim it's a consensus, but we also don't know if that's true.

We know Weber was very average and the team played poorly. We don't know how the players felt about Gray not getting a shot. We don't know the psychological effect it might have had to change things up. We know that the coaches refused to play a backup in a blowout loss at home with Weber getting booed. I think that speaks volumes to their stubborness.

I have ZERO issue with Weber being named the starter after fall camp. I suspect politics played into the decisions later in the year.

Again, how could Gray light it up this year and not be worthy of a chance last year after we lost to South Dakota? Explain how that would be possible instead of using your fancy logic on me?

 

[monk10]

Well I don't buy in the idea that if a player (after another season of offseason workouts and maturity) is better in the next year that they deserved to play in the previous year. So we are probably sitting under different base assumptions. I don't believe that Triplett should have started earlier because he had a great senior year, for example. I don't buy in the conclusion that because Gray lit some game up this coming year that he should have started last year.

In my opinion, in the times that Gray actually got to play in non-blowout situations and against number ones, that he struggled to execute the very basic zone/read run play. He was ofer in the few attempts he got to throw the ball. He was very good when told exactly what to do however there isn't enough data sets to really draw conclusions one way or another. I would for sure not include the next year in that data set. I can totally understand the frustration that Gray wasn't given a chance to help the pro-weber vs anti-weber debaters to finally be able to answer the question. However since those data sets weren't created drawing proof one way or another as a way to state "/thread" or to say "nah nah I told you so" aren't really available.

I'm not sure why you are so offended by logic, but I'll try to ignore those attempted digs to keep you from going into complete defensive mode in your responses.

 

[RodentRampage]

The reason that the Gophers lost to USD was the defense, not because of the offense.

 

[Section2]

The reason that the Gophers lost to USD was the defense, not because of the offense.

our first 6 drives
START POSS. YARD PLAYSYARDS RESULT
15:00 1 04:06 SDAK 46 7 36 Field Goal Good
08:49 1 00:46 MINN 13 3 2 Punt
07:35 1 00:00 MINN 23 11 48 Turnover on Downs
12:06 2 04:07 MINN 27 7 73 Passing Touchdown
07:59 2 00:57 SDAK 32 4 1 Field Goal Missed
01:51 2 00:00 MINN 32 3 35 Fumble

I'm not going to argue that our defense played well, because they didn't. But our offense was not good in that first half against a crappy defense. 10 points at the half was terrible.

 

[Section2]

Well I don't buy in the idea that if a player (after another season of offseason workouts and maturity) is better in the next year that they deserved to play in the previous year. So we are probably sitting under different base assumptions. I don't believe that Triplett should have started earlier because he had a great senior year, for example. I don't buy in the conclusion that because Gray lit some game up this coming year that he should have started last year.

In my opinion, in the times that Gray actually got to play in non-blowout situations and against number ones, that he struggled to execute the very basic zone/read run play. He was ofer in the few attempts he got to throw the ball. He was very good when told exactly what to do however there isn't enough data sets to really draw conclusions one way or another. I would for sure not include the next year in that data set. I can totally understand the frustration that Gray wasn't given a chance to help the pro-weber vs anti-weber debaters to finally be able to answer the question. However since those data sets weren't created drawing proof one way or another as a way to state "/thread" or to say "nah nah I told you so" aren't really available.

I'm not sure why you are so offended by logic, but I'll try to ignore those attempted digs to keep you from going into complete defensive mode in your responses.

Look, bury your head in the sand all you want and believe that Gray went from a terrible player to an all big ten player in one year with a totally new coaching staff and a lot of new starters on the line. No, I'm not predicting that, I'm saying that if it happens, it is far more likely that he did so because he's a really good QB, and indicates strongly that deserved a chance last year. Maybe he would have played terribly. Maybe he won't play well this year. The point is, the information we'll get this year will tell us a lot about what happened/should have happened last year. You can argue that I'm wrong, and that nothing that happens this year means anything about last year, but my opinion is just as valid and logical as yours.
I don't think Gray looked great last year either, but he did look great the year before. I believe in rhythym and timing for a QB, so I don't think a play here and there is a fair body or work to judge. A quarter or at LEAST a full series is much more telling, gives you time to settle in etc. Again, you have your opinion, I have mine, no logical fallacies my friend.
I am far from offended by logic, I'm offended by your opinion of yourself and your intellectual capacity.

 

[Maximus]

he didn't get a shot to start a game or even play a complete series. he has only played one complete series in his career: result? TD drive.

Sorry, as we've been told earlier in this thread, that drive doesn't count because it came in the fourth quarter of a game that was not close against third stringers.

 

[Section2]

Sorry, as we've been told earlier in this thread, that drive doesn't count because it came in the fourth quarter of a game that was not close against third stringers.

All 3rd stringers? Why don't you list every one on the field and show us the OSU depth chart that year.

In any event, count or not, it's the only data point we've got, and he looked good. Scrambled to buy time, he was accurate and on rhythm. And 3rd string OSU is probably better than first string USD.

 

[monk10]

Look, bury your head in the sand all you want and believe that Gray went from a terrible player to an all big ten player in one year with a totally new coaching staff and a lot of new starters on the line. No, I'm not predicting that, I'm saying that if it happens, it is far more likely that he did so because he's a really good QB, and indicates strongly that deserved a chance last year. Maybe he would have played terribly. Maybe he won't play well this year. The point is, the information we'll get this year will tell us a lot about what happened/should have happened last year. You can argue that I'm wrong, and that nothing that happens this year means anything about last year, but my opinion is just as valid and logical as yours.
I don't think Gray looked great last year either, but he did look great the year before. I believe in rhythym and timing for a QB, so I don't think a play here and there is a fair body or work to judge. A quarter or at LEAST a full series is much more telling, gives you time to settle in etc. Again, you have your opinion, I have mine, no logical fallacies my friend.
I am far from offended by logic, I'm offended by your opinion of yourself and your intellectual capacity.

So let me first correct what appears to be an assumtion. I don't believe I have ever said Gray was terrible. I said he wasn't better then Weber. Logically you are saying that Gray is terrible, because you think Weber is terrible. I have only been stating, as my opinion, that Weber gave us our best chance to win, and he was the best QB on the team at the time they were making the decision on who to start.

In addition, if we were throwing the season away to start a new QB for the future I would buy that argument. I'm pretty sure I've said Weber should start until we are mathematically eliminated from being bowl eligible anymore. (Someone better at searching this site can validate that) I just don't believe that switching QB's was the answer to win more games. Unfortunately I can't prove that b/c Gray was never given a chance. I will restate I understand that frustration from both sides, because there is no data to back up one persons opinion or the other. You can argue that Gray would have given us more chance to win, and we could argue with no way either of us can win, but that is part of the sports world, creating arguments where no win can logically prove one opinion is better then the other.

On a note of the bold you started your reply by trying to dismiss my opinion as burring my head in the sand and then concluding with assuming that I have an inflated opinion of myself. Do you do this intentionally? One could argue that you don't have a lot of confidence in the meat of your argument and are distracting the readers and/or hoping I focus my replies on you, and not your opinions of the topic.

 

[imthewalrus]

So you are predicting that Gray will be the All-Big Ten 1st team qb in 2011?

WOW! I do hope you are correct section? That would really be something! Or, are you saying that just to try to make a point? Well, if you don't really mean it why do you say it? You really do need to come up with a "hail Mary" "gotcha point" here because the monk appears to be way up in your fallacy! ; 0 )

Get over it section? It's ALL over. What happened happened. There is NO going back.

Let's hope that Gray will have a fantastic year in 2011 and again in 2012.

 

[Oneoldgopher]

He was the 9th worst thrower in the history of the game based NCAA records on interceptions. He had a sporadic arm. He would throw 7 good balls in a row and then bounce 2 in the turf and one into the arms of a defender. Last year Minnesota ranked 54th in the red zone, that is if we made it to the red zone. As a team, we were 7th in the Big Ten in red zone offense.

Just because he threw for four years and broke school records does not equate to greatness. He never won the title. He never was rated the top B1G qb in any of his seasons. He was sacked 13 times last year and still his qb rating fell 6 pts from the previous year, when he had over 30 sacks against him.

So, last year he should have performed better. The line had improved play and things got marginally better. We went from 9th worst red zone offense to 7th. Not stellar. Mediocre. Yet, there are those who want to crown him with greatness. Face it, Minnesota has no real history with quarterbacks.

 

[Section2]

WOW! I do hope you are correct section? That would really be something! Or, are you saying that just to try to make a point? Well, if you don't really mean it why do you say it? You really do need to come up with a "hail Mary" "gotcha point" here because the monk appears to be way up in your fallacy! ; 0 )

Get over it section? It's ALL over. What happened happened. There is NO going back.

Let's hope that Gray will have a fantastic year in 2011 and again in 2012.

Reading comprehension failure.

 

[RodentRampage]

Weber was terrible on defense, he should have tackled better.

 

[Section2]

I have only been stating, as my opinion, that Weber gave us our best chance to win, and he was the best QB on the team at the time they were making the decision on who to start. .

We started 0-8 and lost to a bad D2 team. At what point do you start to think you might be wrong and that maybe we need to make a change? Again, at NO point have I stated that I don't think Adam deserved to start the season at QB, and really I take no issue with him starting most or all of of the games.

On a note of the bold you started your reply by trying to dismiss my opinion as burring my head in the sand and then concluding with assuming that I have an inflated opinion of myself. Do you do this intentionally? One could argue that you don't have a lot of confidence in the meat of your argument and are distracting the readers and/or hoping I focus my replies on you, and not your opinions of the topic.

You still haven't discussed how Gray could be nowhere close to Weber and not worthy of a shot on an 0-8 team one year, and be a 1st team all conference qb the next year. That's the logical part of my argument. I'm taking issue with people who say REGARDLESS how Gray plays next year, the coaches were right to bench him the entire year because Weber gave us the best chance to win even though we weren't winning and were getting blown out. That's the meat, please focus on it. you introduced the phrase deductive fallacy, and you want to talk about what kind of formal training i've received in logic, and you are accusing me of trying to distract readers? PU LESE

 

[Section2]

Weber was terrible on defense, he should have tackled better.

look up about 7 posts