I know how to end the Adam Weber debate....

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Section2 said:
We started 0-8 and lost to a bad D2 team. At what point do you start to think you might be wrong and that maybe we need to make a change? Again, at NO point have I stated that I don't think Adam deserved to start the season at QB, and really I take no issue with him starting most or all of of the games.
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I realized right at the "D2 game" that our defense was so bad that we weren't going to win any games until they got better. I didn't think throwing the season totally away would help our defense by switching QB's on offense. I was hoping that our defense would grow up faster and that we would find a way to get to 6-6.

I do fall back to my point I said that multiple coaches thought Weber was the best QB to start. From Mason to Brewster, and even after Brewster was fired the next coach in line didn't bench him. This isn't just one coach.

I will state again I have no idea why he didn't get garbage time. I agree with people who think Gray deserved to step in during parts of the game it didn't matter.

Section2 said:
You still haven't discussed how Gray could be nowhere close to Weber and not worthy of a shot on an 0-8 team one year, and be a 1st team all conference qb the next year.
That's the logical part of my argument.
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I believe I did. I believe that Weber was giving us the best chance to win.

Section2 said:
I'm taking issue with people who say REGARDLESS how Gray plays next year, the coaches were right to bench him the entire year because Weber gave us the best chance to win even though we weren't winning and were getting blown out. That's the meat, please focus on it. you introduced the phrase deductive fallacy, and you want to talk about what kind of formal training i've received in logic, and you are accusing me of trying to distract readers? PU LESE
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Weber was 2nd all-big ten QB with a head coach that has proven to be dysfunctional at best. I assert that Weber would be 1st team big ten next year with this staff and still would have beat out Gray in the spring try out this year. Unfortunately his eligibility is up, and I cannot prove that. However that isn't important in our make up how something happens next year part of our conversation, correct?
 



monk10 said:
I realized right at the "D2 game" that our defense was so bad that we weren't going to win any games until they got better. I didn't think throwing the season totally away would help our defense by switching QB's on offense. I was hoping that our defense would grow up faster and that we would find a way to get to 6-6.

I do fall back to my point I said that multiple coaches thought Weber was the best QB to start. From Mason to Brewster, and even after Brewster was fired the next coach in line didn't bench him. This isn't just one coach.

I will state again I have no idea why he didn't get garbage time. I agree with people who think Gray deserved to step in during parts of the game it didn't matter.

I believe I did. I believe that Weber was giving us the best chance to win.

Weber was 2nd all-big ten QB with a head coach that has proven to be dysfunctional at best. I assert that Weber would be 1st team big ten next year with this staff and still would have beat out Gray in the spring try out this year. Unfortunately his eligibility is up, and I cannot prove that. However that isn't important in our make up how something happens next year part of our conversation, correct?
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Ok, we're closing in on a resolution, my last post in this thread.

1. You agree that Gray should have gotten a shot at some point in the season, even if that meant finishing the 4th Q of a blowout loss, which is my gripe #1.
2. Mason? How would his opinion matter? He wasn't the coach. Horton I believe did not want to punish Adam, or give the appearance that he was blaming the season on Adam. He did get Q more involved at QB, and that appeared to pay off.
3. I'm NOT, repeat, NOT predicting that Q will be 1st team all big 10. You are really predicting that Weber would be first team All Big 10 this year? W O W

Again, you are entitled to your opinion. I get upset with the Weber supporters not allowing any opinion other than "weber was the best qb last year, that is indisputable." I think there is not enough info to make that call. After I see Q play this year, I will have an informed opinion.
 


Section2 said:
Ok, we're closing in on a resolution, my last post in this thread.

1. You agree that Gray should have gotten a shot at some point in the season, even if that meant finishing the 4th Q of a blowout loss, which is my gripe #1.
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Yes, but in no way would I think that would equate to starting. Which I guess is proven by winning our last two games by having Weber start, getting our offense evolved with a change of pace QB that didn't have the responsibility of being game planned against 100% of the time. I hope that makes sense.


Section2 said:
. Mason? How would his opinion matter? He wasn't the coach.
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Hrmm I'll concede on this because it is my memory that Mason was already talking Weber up for the next season coming in. I could be wrong and it might have just been lip service and he didn't expect to start a red shirt freshman during a rebuilding year.

Section2 said:
Horton I believe did not want to punish Adam, or give the appearance that he was blaming the season on Adam. He did get Q more involved at QB, and that appeared to pay off.
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I think you are validating what I was saying that Weber wasn't the reason we were losing in the early part of the season.
Section2 said:
3. I'm NOT, repeat, NOT predicting that Q will be 1st team all big 10. You are really predicting that Weber would be first team All Big 10 this year? W O W
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I'm not predicting Gray or Weber will be First team all big 10 in this coming season. I'm just using the same liberty you are using to muddle up some information to try to prove a point that has no base in logic.

Section2 said:
Again, you are entitled to your opinion. I get upset with the Weber supporters not allowing any opinion other than "weber was the best qb last year, that is indisputable." I think there is not enough info to make that call. After I see Q play this year, I will have an informed opinion.
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I entered this conversation because you are trying to create an informed opinion around something that has fallacies in the logic to derive that opinion. That is the part you haven't been able to refute. I don't mind talking about weber and gray, but your proof scenario is still incorrect, and it isn't me just stating it. I'm pointing to standards around logic. Does that make sense?
 


monk10 said:
I'm not predicting Gray or Weber will be First team all big 10 in this coming season. I'm just using the same liberty you are using to muddle up some information to try to prove a point that has no base in logic.

I entered this conversation because you are trying to create an informed opinion around something that has fallacies in the logic to derive that opinion. That is the part you haven't been able to refute. I don't mind talking about weber and gray, but your proof scenario is still incorrect, and it isn't me just stating it. I'm pointing to standards around logic. Does that make sense?
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I tried to walk away

1. NO NO NO NO. I am not predicting Gray will be 1st team all big ten, you just said you believe Adam Weber would be were he granted a 5th year. I used that possibility as a response to people who said "NOTHING gray can do next year will change their opinion of playing time at the QB position in '10." My response, was "NOTHING? How about if he won the Heisman? 1st Team all big 10?" That's not muddling anything up at all. That's taking issue with people using the word 'NOTHING'.
2. Again, the QB position is passing and running. I know how well Adam did at those things in '10. He was not accurate, drives stalled because of him in many instances, and he was not a great scrambler or running threat. I don't know how well Gray can do those things because I haven't seen him play enough. But if he's throwing lasers on target this year, and scrambling well, and the offense is stringing together drives, then it is my opinion, that this proves that he deserved more of a shot to play QB last year. You are free to disagree, but you are going much further than that. Since we are working the field of judgement anyway on who is better, everything is subjective. If Gray and Weber had started games back to back last year you could argue that we can't compare the two because there are too many variables. But I can judge who I think was the better option. Sometimes the differences are small (likely) sometimes they are huge (Weber was not very good and Gray made 1st team all big 10). My lord what an annoying argument. I'm done.
 

monk10 said:
Yes, but in no way would I think that would equate to starting.

I think you are validating what I was saying that Weber wasn't the reason we were losing in the early part of the season.
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Also, because I'm annoyed.

1) I didn't say starting, I said playing a full series or a quarter in a blowout loss. Stop trying to chnage my argument so you have something to attack.
2) NO. I'm saying Horton didn't want it to appear that this was his opinion. I made no judgement on what Horton's actual opinion was because I don't know. I think he respected Adam, the season was lost, he didn't want Adam to take the fall, and benching him at that point would have left that impression. I don't disagree with coach Horton.
 



You're allowed to swear during or after the 10th page of a thread, correct?
 

Ask and you shall receive

hyaluronic said:
You're allowed to swear during or after he 10th page of a thread, correct?
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Why don't you go %$!#%!# yourself! = Yes you are absolutely right to want to swear. Everything worth saying on this subject could have been said on one page.
 

Section2 said:
I tried to walk away

1. NO NO NO NO. I am not predicting Gray will be 1st team all big ten, you just said you believe Adam Weber would be were he granted a 5th year. I used that possibility as a response to people who said "NOTHING gray can do next year will change their opinion of playing time at the QB position in '10." My response, was "NOTHING? How about if he won the Heisman? 1st Team all big 10?" That's not muddling anything up at all. That's taking issue with people using the word 'NOTHING'.
2. Again, the QB position is passing and running. I know how well Adam did at those things in '10. He was not accurate, drives stalled because of him in many instances, and he was not a great scrambler or running threat. I don't know how well Gray can do those things because I haven't seen him play enough. But if he's throwing lasers on target this year, and scrambling well, and the offense is stringing together drives, then it is my opinion, that this proves that he deserved more of a shot to play QB last year. You are free to disagree, but you are going much further than that. Since we are working the field of judgement anyway on who is better, everything is subjective. If Gray and Weber had started games back to back last year you could argue that we can't compare the two because there are too many variables. But I can judge who I think was the better option. Sometimes the differences are small (likely) sometimes they are huge (Weber was not very good and Gray made 1st team all big 10). My lord what an annoying argument. I'm done.
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Didn't Weber already have 5 years?
 

Section2 said:
I don't know how well Gray can do those things because I haven't seen him play enough. But if he's throwing lasers on target this year, and scrambling well, and the offense is stringing together drives, then it is my opinion, that this proves that he deserved more of a shot to play QB last year.
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This is exactly where your logic keeps falling down. It doesn't matter how a player does the next year as a bearing on whether they deserved more of shot the previous year. It doesn't "prove" anything.

The ability to play is up to the coach. We know that Kill said to get on the field you are going to have to do a bunch of stuff this year to earn playing time. It won't matter if that player is all-effing-world(exaggeration intentional) the following year. If they take over a year to learn how to practice with Kill, they won't play this year.

I honestly don't know how to explain how you are misusing the use of prove and logic anymore then I have, and based on your replies I'm not sure if you care to form your perspective in a logical manner.
 



monk10 said:
In my opinion, in the times that Gray actually got to play in non-blowout situations and against number ones, that he struggled to execute the very basic zone/read run play. He was ofer in the few attempts he got to throw the ball. He was very good when told exactly what to do however there isn't enough data sets to really draw conclusions one way or another. I would for sure not include the next year in that data set. I can totally understand the frustration that Gray wasn't given a chance to help the pro-weber vs anti-weber debaters to finally be able to answer the question. However since those data sets weren't created drawing proof one way or another as a way to state "/thread" or to say "nah nah I told you so" aren't really available.

QUOTE]

Well, you're right. Gray training under center less than half his practice time might have held him back from being able to understand the QB position last year. After all, they used him primarily as a receiver. Now, Gray is getting a chance to practice one position and to master it. I understand why they put him in as a receiver last year, but it hurt his development as a QB.
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monk10 said:
This is exactly where your logic keeps falling down. It doesn't matter how a player does the next year as a bearing on whether they deserved more of shot the previous year. It doesn't "prove" anything.

The ability to play is up to the coach. We know that Kill said to get on the field you are going to have to do a bunch of stuff this year to earn playing time. It won't matter if that player is all-effing-world(exaggeration intentional) the following year. If they take over a year to learn how to practice with Kill, they won't play this year.

I honestly don't know how to explain how you are misusing the use of prove and logic anymore then I have, and based on your replies I'm not sure if you care to form your perspective in a logical manner.
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Bro - It proves it to me. That's all I'm stating. I don't know how someone so adept at the English language as you proclaim to be, is having such a hard time grasping that kind of statement. It doesn't definitively prove it in a way that nobody can refute, no. We aren't discussing math here, we're talking opinions on football players. The phrase, "in my opinion, this proves" does not mean that I am stating a fact. It means I'm stating an opinion, which is why I began the sentence with "in my opinion". You see, opinions are different than facts. When I started my sentence that way, it was a clue that the statement to follow was based on opinion, and not fact. If I thought it was a fact, I might have started the sentence "it is a fact that..." Nowhere have I represented my beliefs as facts.
I know the ability to play is up to the coach. We are discussing whether coach Brewster made the right decision as to playing time for QBs last year. And we are discussing whether Q's play on the field this upcoming year might indicate that Brewster made the wrong decision last year. I think it might, you think it doesn't and can't. Last season would have gone differently had Q been chosen as the starter, I'm sure you agree, but we don't know what that result would have been. It might have been better, and it might (although I can't fathom how) have been worse. Once we've seen Q play a full season, we will have some more information to base our speculation of how he might have played last year if given the reigns. If Q is all big 10 this year, I think that's good evidence that last year would have gone better. That's not a failure of logic to state that. It's an opinion, and one that could be true or false. You state it doesn't matter, but it does matter. If Nate Triplett had been the starter the previous year instead of Simoni Lawrence, he might have played better. The defense might have been better. You can't state that it wouldn't. So we can debate based on our opinions and based on what little evidence we have. We will never know for sure, but we can speculate, and speculating is part of the fun of sports, message boards, being a fan, etc. That is, it WAS fun, until you injected your superior logic and reasoning skills into this debate and sucked the life out of it.
 

Section2 said:
We will see very soon who is better between AW and MG.
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Here is an example of many quotes you put in this thread. Maybe I made the mistake of reading the whole thread instead of what ever you currently were thinking at the time of your posting. For that I apologize, and I will not try to take all of your thoughts into understanding what you are trying to state.

Please continue having fun at building a case on how to "prove" to the pro-weber types your opinion is correct.
 

monk10 said:
Here is an example of many quotes you put in this thread. Maybe I made the mistake of reading the whole thread instead of what ever you currently were thinking at the time of your posting. For that I apologize, and I will not try to take all of your thoughts into understanding what you are trying to state.

Please continue having fun at building a case on how to "prove" to the pro-weber types your opinion is correct.
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you are the most annoying human being on the planet, congratulations. my post that you quoted was my opinion. Are you aware of any methodology to prove that ANY player is better than another player? Isn't it all opinion? Please GTFO.
 

Oneoldgopher said:
monk10 said:
In my opinion, in the times that Gray actually got to play in non-blowout situations and against number ones, that he struggled to execute the very basic zone/read run play. He was ofer in the few attempts he got to throw the ball. He was very good when told exactly what to do however there isn't enough data sets to really draw conclusions one way or another. I would for sure not include the next year in that data set. I can totally understand the frustration that Gray wasn't given a chance to help the pro-weber vs anti-weber debaters to finally be able to answer the question. However since those data sets weren't created drawing proof one way or another as a way to state "/thread" or to say "nah nah I told you so" aren't really available.

QUOTE]

Logic fail monk, you can't prove that Gray wouldn't have done a better job running the zone read if he would have been a full time quarterback. you can't prove that his low completion percentage wasn't due to all of the time he spent at wide receiver. You aren't very good at this logic stuff after all. Your data set is incomplete so you cannot make any statements on the matter. Even if Gray would have started a game, it wouldn't have definitively answered the question asked by the pro-weber and anti-weber debaters, logic fail. They did not operate under the exact same circumstances so you cannot prove who was better with that data set. You cannot state "/thread" if you do not have definitive proof, because my logic professor said so.
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Personally I don't think Weber will make it in the NFL. But then again I nor anyone else on this board ever heard of the kid from Wisconsin who played at Eastern Illinois before he hit it big in the NFL. AND when Max Hall, Joe Webb, John Skelton, and Todd Bauman all STARTED games in the NFL last year you can never rule anybody out.
 

Mick Turition said:
Personally I don't think Weber will make it in the NFL. But then again I nor anyone else on this board ever heard of the kid from Wisconsin who played at Eastern Illinois before he hit it big in the NFL. AND when Max Hall, Joe Webb, John Skelton, and Todd Bauman all STARTED games in the NFL last year you can never rule anybody out.
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Tony Romo - won Walter Payton Award (I-AA equivalent of the Heisman), 1st-team All-American I-AA, led nation in passing efficiency as a Junior

Max Hall - all-time winningest QB in BYU history (a school whose QB alumni include Ty Detmer, Jim McMahon, and Steve Young)

Joe Webb - athletic freak, probably the most athletic QB in the history of the NFL in terms of measurables, only player in the history of the NCAA to pass for 2,000 yards and rush for 1,000 yards in two consecutive seasons; only started because the Vikings had an idiot coach who put all his eggs in the basket of a QB who is older than multiple head coaches in the league

John Skelton - Led Division I-AA in passing yards and passing yards per game, played in Texas vs. the Nation All-Star game, played in East-West Shrine Game, invited to Scouting Combine

Todd Bouman - Played both basketball and football in college, All-American senior year, has played in the NFL for all or parts of 13 seasons

What all of the players you mentioned have in common is that they were all winners in college and/or athletic freaks of nature. Weber is neither.
 

If your crops fail, Weber did it. If your cow stops giving milk, Weber did it.
 

RodentRampage said:
If your crops fail, Weber did it. If your cow stops giving milk, Weber did it.
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If you bring up reasonable objections to Adam Weber's career as a college football player, people will defend him with ridiculous non-sequiturs and not actually address said objections in any meaningful way.
 


Section2 said:
Logic fail monk, you can't prove that Gray wouldn't have done a better job running the zone read if he would have been a full time quarterback.
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Did I actually try to prove that by setting up some ridiculous future as a baseline?

Section2 said:
you can't prove that his low completion percentage wasn't due to all of the time he spent at wide receiver.
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Did I actually try to prove that there was a cause and effect of this?


Section2 said:
You aren't very good at this logic stuff after all.
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I might not be good but you are unfortunately showing the world you have a hard time even understanding the concept.

Section2 said:
Your data set is incomplete so you cannot make any statements on the matter.
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Yup that is why I'm not going to make some ridiculous claim next year that Gray is better then Weber as some sort of validation around the 2010 football year. I would be interested in a discussion around is Gray the best QB the gophers have had. That will be fun.


Section2 said:
You cannot state "/thread" if you do not have definitive proof, because my logic professor said so.
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Wow so mad. If I promise not to bring up logic will you stop crying in this thread?
 

RodentRampage said:
If your crops fail, Weber did it. If your cow stops giving milk, Weber did it.
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If your quarterback, praised for his intellagence, throws a pick six to lose the game while standing in his own endzone on the last play of the game, Weber did it.


Just think 5 months from now we'll be starting these kinds of arguments about the next gopher QB and finally ending the ones about Weber. That is how this thread will end. We'll just flip sides, those that defend Weber will attack Grey and vice versa.
 

Adam Weber's career is over. There is nothing he can do to make his Gopher career better or worse. The only question is how we will remember him to future Gopher fans who ask about the all time leader in virtually every passing category. I will tell my children that he turned down an offer from Wisconsin, endured a terrible set of circumstances that must've seemed like Groundhog Day to him as every time he turned around he was expected to learn a new offense and how to be a different quarterback than before. I will tell them that he represented the U as well as anybody ever could under these circumstances and that he combined with fellow MN standout Eric Decker to provide a QB/reciever duo that MN could be proud of.


Others I'm sure will remember Weber as a guy who underthrew hundreds of thousands of recievers that had nobody within 70 yards of them. Sports memories are what you make them, folks.
 

I will teach my children that the Adam Weber era was the most painful to watch in my lifetime...even when the team was winning it was painful to watch.

But to be honest, I will probably call it the Brewster era and not even mention Adam Weber.
If my kids ask about him I will probably say "I saw him play a lot of games."
 

monk10 said:
Did I actually try to prove that by setting up some ridiculous future as a baseline?
Did I actually try to prove that there was a cause and effect of this?

I might not be good but you are unfortunately showing the world you have a hard time even understanding the concept.

Yup that is why I'm not going to make some ridiculous claim next year that Gray is better then Weber as some sort of validation around the 2010 football year. I would be interested in a discussion around is Gray the best QB the gophers have had. That will be fun.

Wow so mad. If I promise not to bring up logic will you stop crying in this thread?
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Gray being 1st team all big 10 is a ridiculous future? I think a HS all american has that potential.

No, you said you don't think he's a very good qb because he completed very few of his passes, I'm suggesting that your logic is faulty because there are other factors at play, such as his spending all of his practice time at WR, coming in "cold" for only one play, not getting to develop rhythm etc.

Nope, I perfectly understand logic. Using logic as a means to definitively prove anything when it comes to opinions about players is the problem. It doesn't exist. You can't prove that one player is better than another. It is, however, perfectly logical to formulate opinions about players from year to year, and to surmise about who would be better, what different personnel moves should have been made, etc. And people do this all the time, who's better Foggie or AAK? Barber III or Darrell Thompson? You are really struggling to grasp this. I'm starting to feel bad for you now.

Not a claim monk, it's an opinion.

What would make me happy would be for you to not take everything so literal, and to realize that people have opinions, and people disagree. My opinion is that Gray should have played last year and would have been better than Weber. That opinion can never be fact, but if Gray has an outstanding year, I will feel vindicated. You don't agree with my opinion, and that's fine. You're a Weber guy. You feel that nothing that can ever happen will ever change that opinion. After all, Weber started every game in his career, therefore, you can't be proven wrong. The coaches said he was the best and so he's the best. It's a fine opinion to hold. But it's not NECESSARILY correct. Either of us could be right, we'll never know. That's what you might have said, and we could have had a nice discussion. But you decided to be a *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!# bag. Lesson learned.
 

Section2 said:
But you decided to be a *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!# bag. Lesson learned.
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Unregistered is fully responsible for stopping me once I start. Usually he lets me hammer out trolls, unless dpodoll68 tries to steal my killing blows (yes, I'm still mad about that grrr!).

So Unregistered you are fully responsible for Section2's rage post here.
 

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