STrib: MIAC rivals plot ouster of St. Thomas

Donate To GopherHole
gophernewbie said:
Colorado College is actually DIII but is grandfathered in.
Click to expand...

Clarkson, RPI, CC, St. Lawrence, and Union are all D3 in all but hockey. There are tons of schools that are D2 that play up to D1 in hockey (Bemidji, Mankato, Duluth, St. Cloud right here in MN).
 

Word said:
Clarkson, RPI, CC, St. Lawrence, and Union are all D3 in all but hockey. There are tons of schools that are D2 that play up to D1 in hockey (Bemidji, Mankato, Duluth, St. Cloud right here in MN).
Click to expand...

The DIII schools are grandfathered in. There is a DIII hockey, so additional DIII schools can no longer play up. Further, I believe some of the DIII teams were grandfathered in further in being able to allow scholarships for the play up sport. While other DIII play up teams are barred from doing that.

None of that applies to DII, because here is no DII hockey and DII allows scholarships.
 

Gophers_4life said:
The DIII schools are grandfathered in. There is a DIII hockey, so additional DIII schools can no longer play up. Further, I believe some of the DIII teams were grandfathered in further in being able to allow scholarships for the play up sport. While other DIII play up teams are barred from doing that.

None of that applies to DII, because here is no DII hockey and DII allows scholarships.
Click to expand...

Correct. As far as I understand it. No additional D3 schools would be allowed to play up in D1 hockey. It's just because of the grandfather clause that the handful like CC get to do so. So if UST went to D2, they would have to move hockey to D1 or drop it.
 

Gophers_4life said:
The DIII schools are grandfathered in. There is a DIII hockey, so additional DIII schools can no longer play up. Further, I believe some of the DIII teams were grandfathered in further in being able to allow scholarships for the play up sport. While other DIII play up teams are barred from doing that.

None of that applies to DII, because here is no DII hockey and DII allows scholarships.
Click to expand...

I was just pointing out that there were other schools that are D3 other than CC that play D1 hockey. Wasn't sure if that post's main point was the grandfathering-in part or about CC.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
St. Thomas has to decide what they value most. Do they want to be a member of the MIAC - which means being part of a league with a common approach to academics and athletics - or do they want to be this athletic powerhouse?

If athletics is the most important thing, then leave the MIAC and accept the consequences. play an independent D3 schedule, or bite the bullet and move up to D2.

right now, St. Thomas is trying to have their cake and eat it, too.
Click to expand...

What have they done wrong except win? It's not like they are loosening their academic standards to have more athletic success.
 



Gophers_4life said:
Won games by unacceptable margins. There is a difference.
Click to expand...

So has St. John’s.
So St. John’s can’t vote UST out or they are next.


Honestly what they might do as a solution is petition the ncaa for a running clock of the margin is over 40.
High school football in many states do that.

Other issue is limited rosters when on the road. Putting your backups in is one thing, but when it is UST vs hamline the UST 3rd string would probably be able to play even with hamline....so maybe let them bring their 5th string.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
What have they done wrong except win? It's not like they are loosening their academic standards to have more athletic success.
Click to expand...

It's a question of balance and emphasis. As some of the other schools see it, St Thomas emphasizes sports out of proportion to the rest of the league. Other schools see sports as part of the overall college experience. But, they think St Thomas makes sports a higher priority. Again, if St Thomas wants to be an athletic powerhouse, great. But do it in a conference where all the schools agree with that approach. What you have with the MIAC is one school doing things one way, and most of the other schools doing things a different way.

The other schools are basically saying to St Thomas, if you don't share our values, then you don't belong in this conference.
 

Some guy said:
So has St. John’s.
So St. John’s can’t vote UST out or they are next.


Honestly what they might do as a solution is petition the ncaa for a running clock of the margin is over 40.
High school football in many states do that.

Other issue is limited rosters when on the road. Putting your backups in is one thing, but when it is UST vs hamline the UST 3rd string would probably be able to play even with hamline....so maybe let them bring their 5th string.
Click to expand...

Wouldn’t it be easier and simpler to just have ST play NSun schools?? Why is that just an evil idea??
 



Bob_Loblaw said:
What have they done wrong except win? It's not like they are loosening their academic standards to have more athletic success.
Click to expand...

The Tommies seem to have a culture problem. It's possible to beat another football team by 60 or 70 points without trying to do it. It happens every year all over the country. But to beat another team in your conference by 97 points the head coach really has to want to do it.
 
Last edited:

Gophers_4life said:
Wouldn’t it be easier and simpler to just have ST play NSun schools?? Why is that just an evil idea??
Click to expand...

Well, they'd have to petition the NCAA to go D2, apply to and get accepted to the conference (they likely would, because Augustana is going D1), and then go through the required transiton period the NCAA mandates. They'd have to budget for scholarships like other D2 schools as well. It's not like they can just say "we're going to do this instead." And it's not like the high school league, where there's an authority that can tell them where to play based on enrollment. There are a number of D1 schools that are much smaller than many D3 schools.

And ultimately, they wouldn't make any more money, or really get any more exposure. The MIAC gets a ton more media coverage in the Twin Cities than the NSIC.

D2 in my opinion is kind of a strange no-mans land. It doesn't get the exposure of even low level D1 conferences, and it doesn't have the rah-rah tight knit school spirit of the MIAC private D3 schools.
 

discochris said:
Well, they'd have to petition the NCAA to go D2, apply to and get accepted to the conference (they likely would, because Augustana is going D1), and then go through the required transiton period the NCAA mandates. They'd have to budget for scholarships like other D2 schools as well. It's not like they can just say "we're going to do this instead." And it's not like the high school league, where there's an authority that can tell them where to play based on enrollment. There are a number of D1 schools that are much smaller than many D3 schools.

And ultimately, they wouldn't make any more money, or really get any more exposure. The MIAC gets a ton more media coverage in the Twin Cities than the NSIC.

D2 in my opinion is kind of a strange no-mans land. It doesn't get the exposure of even low level D1 conferences, and it doesn't have the rah-rah tight knit school spirit of the MIAC private D3 schools.
Click to expand...

The "MIAC" doesn't get a ton more media coverage. St. Thomas, and St. John's in football when good like last year, get a ton more media coverage...and would continue to in the NSIC or any other conference as long as they're competitive. Concordia-Moorhead, Gustavus, St. Olaf, Carleton and St. Mary's get no coverage here (except when playing St. Thomas) and the other Twin Cities schools probably get far less coverage than MSU Mankato, St. Cloud, Winona and UMD.
 

Cruze said:
The Tommies seem to have a culture problem. It's possible to beat another football team by 60 or 70 points without trying to do it. It happens every year all over the country. But to beat another team in your conference by 97 points the head coach really has to want to do it.
Click to expand...

As I pointed out earlier, all these "obscene" margin of victory games are UST road games where, by conference rule, they have roster restrictions that basically limit them to a 2 deep team plus specialist. The simplest solution in the short term is to allow expanded traveling rosters. That way, the 3rd or 4th team is playing out the 2nd half - not the 2nd team back ups trying to make a statement for playing time.
 



Panthadad2 said:
The "MIAC" doesn't get a ton more media coverage. St. Thomas, and St. John's in football when good like last year, get a ton more media coverage...and would continue to in the NSIC or any other conference as long as they're competitive. Concordia-Moorhead, Gustavus, St. Olaf, Carleton and St. Mary's get no coverage here (except when playing St. Thomas) and the other Twin Cities schools probably get far less coverage than MSU Mankato, St. Cloud, Winona and UMD.
Click to expand...

I disagree. The Strib, Reusse, Mike Max all cover MIAC sports in far more depth than their overall relevance. With the exception of the D1 hockey programs, it's rare to hear much about NSIC sports.
 

Panthadad2 said:
Revenue sharing is a no go. D3 schools get their athletic revenue from incremental tuition, room & board by attracting student athletes to the school. There's nothing to share. I believe St. Thomas pays WCCO to broadcast games as a form of advertising. I can't believe a negotiated settlement would include a clause where UST states "we solemnly promise we won't kick your ass in football".
Click to expand...

Of course it won't be a clause in a contract, that's why I stated it'd be a "non-official not-spoken-about-in-public agreement". That's my prediction, ST stays in the MIAC and we won't see blowouts like the 70-0 scores (within conference games that is) anymore. We'll see if it happens.
 

Livingat45north said:
Of course it won't be a clause in a contract, that's why I stated it'd be a "non-official not-spoken-about-in-public agreement". That's my prediction, ST stays in the MIAC and we won't see blowouts like the 70-0 scores (within conference games that is) anymore. We'll see if it happens.
Click to expand...

But how do you do that if one teams reserves are that much better than the other teams starters? It isn't fair to tell the players not to try. Now when you're going for two etc., that's bush league, but you can't tell players that don't play much, that they can't do their best.
 

UST82Gopher said:
As I pointed out earlier, all these "obscene" margin of victory games are UST road games where, by conference rule, they have roster restrictions that basically limit them to a 2 deep team plus specialist. The simplest solution in the short term is to allow expanded traveling rosters. That way, the 3rd or 4th team is playing out the 2nd half - not the 2nd team back ups trying to make a statement for playing time.
Click to expand...

Wasn’t the 97-0 game also the game where UST converted a fake fg 2pt try where the holder threw a pass behind his back? And it was in the 2nd half?

Caruso has no class and everybody in the MIAC knows it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

discochris said:
I disagree. The Strib, Reusse, Mike Max all cover MIAC sports in far more depth than their overall relevance. With the exception of the D1 hockey programs, it's rare to hear much about NSIC sports.
Click to expand...

These people cover what gets viewership. There are a lot of ST alumni in the market. Again it seems like we can’t help comparing apples to oranges, with metro programs and non-metro programs.

I see zero reason that they’d stop covering ST if hey were winning the NSun like they win the MIAC.
 
Last edited:

discochris said:
Well, they'd have to petition the NCAA to go D2, apply to and get accepted to the conference (they likely would, because Augustana is going D1), and then go through the required transiton period the NCAA mandates. They'd have to budget for scholarships like other D2 schools as well. It's not like they can just say "we're going to do this instead." And it's not like the high school league, where there's an authority that can tell them where to play based on enrollment. There are a number of D1 schools that are much smaller than many D3 schools.

And ultimately, they wouldn't make any more money, or really get any more exposure. The MIAC gets a ton more media coverage in the Twin Cities than the NSIC.

D2 in my opinion is kind of a strange no-mans land. It doesn't get the exposure of even low level D1 conferences, and it doesn't have the rah-rah tight knit school spirit of the MIAC private D3 schools.
Click to expand...

Your post is probably why they haven’t voluntarily moved up. Valid points.

But the reality seems to be that there’s a good chance their hand will be forced.
 

I hear that it would take 9 schools to change the bylaws and vote UST out. That means at least one of St. Johns, Concordia, Bethel or Gustavus (the perennially competitive FB schools) would need to join the other group of schools that reportedly want the Tommies gone. If this vote was up to the MIAC football coaches only, I doubt any of those 4 coaches would vote UST out due to pride and history. All those head coaches played or started coaching in the MIAC in the 1980s when St. Thomas was still a smaller liberal arts peer at the same level as anyone else.

The coaches are not voting though. I hear the college Presidents are voting. I imagine the Presidents are more objective and see the situation for what it is. The Presidents see their schools with no chance at sniffing a conference all-sports championship with UST in the league...ever. The Presidents see large gaps in athletic department budgets (take a look at the number of coaches for random sports at UST then look at other MIAC schools) and differences in financial aid for student athletes (I'm just speculating here). The Presidents see an arms race for facilities that they probably can't win. That said, the 4 schools I listed above at least compete in several sports, so who knows how this will all play out.
 

Gophers_4life said:
These people cover what gets viewership. There are a lot of ST alumni in the market. Again it seems like we can’t help comparing apples to oranges, with metro programs and non-metro programs.

I see zero reason that they’d stop covering ST if hey were winning the NSun like they win the MIAC.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with you to an extent. But let's use Concordia-St. Paul as a comparison. They went from the UMAC to D2. Trying to fill a niche as the only D2 school in the Twin Cities. With the exception of volleyball, it's been a mixed bag in terms of success, but suppose they won a bunch of D2 football titles - I can't imagine they'd get the same level of coverage. I may be wrong (and I may be biased) but I just don't see it.
 

Panthadad2 said:
I hear that it would take 9 schools to change the bylaws and vote UST out. That means at least one of St. Johns, Concordia, Bethel or Gustavus (the perennially competitive FB schools) would need to join the other group of schools that reportedly want the Tommies gone. If this vote was up to the MIAC football coaches only, I doubt any of those 4 coaches would vote UST out due to pride and history. All those head coaches played or started coaching in the MIAC in the 1980s when St. Thomas was still a smaller liberal arts peer at the same level as anyone else.

The coaches are not voting though. I hear the college Presidents are voting. I imagine the Presidents are more objective and see the situation for what it is. The Presidents see their schools with no chance at sniffing a conference all-sports championship with UST in the league...ever. The Presidents see large gaps in athletic department budgets (take a look at the number of coaches for random sports at UST then look at other MIAC schools) and differences in financial aid for student athletes (I'm just speculating here). The Presidents see an arms race for facilities that they probably can't win. That said, the 4 schools I listed above at least compete in several sports, so who knows how this will all play out.
Click to expand...

Are St. Marys (no football), St. Kates and St. Bens (women only) voting as well? I assume Mac is voting even though they aren't playing football in the MIAC? That could make a difference...
 

discochris said:
Are St. Marys (no football), St. Kates and St. Bens (women only) voting as well? I assume Mac is voting even though they aren't playing football in the MIAC? That could make a difference...
Click to expand...

Reusse reported that all the MIAC schools are voting as this is about all sports not just football.
 

Panthadad2 said:
I hear that it would take 9 schools to change the bylaws and vote UST out. That means at least one of St. Johns, Concordia, Bethel or Gustavus (the perennially competitive FB schools) would need to join the other group of schools that reportedly want the Tommies gone. If this vote was up to the MIAC football coaches only, I doubt any of those 4 coaches would vote UST out due to pride and history. All those head coaches played or started coaching in the MIAC in the 1980s when St. Thomas was still a smaller liberal arts peer at the same level as anyone else.

The coaches are not voting though. I hear the college Presidents are voting. I imagine the Presidents are more objective and see the situation for what it is. The Presidents see their schools with no chance at sniffing a conference all-sports championship with UST in the league...ever. The Presidents see large gaps in athletic department budgets (take a look at the number of coaches for random sports at UST then look at other MIAC schools) and differences in financial aid for student athletes (I'm just speculating here). The Presidents see an arms race for facilities that they probably can't win. That said, the 4 schools I listed above at least compete in several sports, so who knows how this will all play out.
Click to expand...

St. Thomas' enrollment size (~6K+) plus being right smack in the Twin Cities nexus gives it distinct advantages. They just simply are dominant in a lot of sports because they are a big draw for athletes especially in the metro area.

Here is the MIAC Website:
https://www.miacathletics.com/landing/index

Running up the score in football on a lesser opponent, I don't think the late John Gagliardi never did that. That is real classy if Caruso intentionally did that. Tacky.

But, what is the MIAC going to do? More kids who are from the region who play sports want to go to Saint Thomas. Do you really want to expel the school from the MIAC for dominating the All Sports challenge?
 



Gophers_4life said:
Wouldn’t it be easier and simpler to just have ST play NSun schools?? Why is that just an evil idea??
Click to expand...

St Thomas couldn’t compete in the northern sun without millions of dollars in athletics scholarships that they don’t have.
Pretty easy for you to spend other people’s money I guess
 

hungan1 said:
St. Thomas' enrollment size (~6K+) plus being right smack in the Twin Cities nexus gives it distinct advantages. They just simply are dominant in a lot of sports because they are a big draw for athletes especially in the metro area.

Here is the MIAC Website:
https://www.miacathletics.com/landing/index

Running up the score in football on a lesser opponent, I don't think the late John Gagliardi never did that. That is real classy if Caruso intentionally did that. Tacky.

But, what is the MIAC going to do? More kids who are from the region who play sports want to go to Saint Thomas. Do you really want to expel the school from the MIAC for dominating the All Sports challenge?
Click to expand...

(1) As an Augsburg grad (an old one), I can say there were times when Gagliardi didn't take his foot off the gas, but he didn't do it in a malicious manner. I can remember when me and a few of my buddies took the champagne flight to St. Joseph to see the mighty Auggies take on the Johnnies. We ran out of adult beverages on the way and had to stop to re-stock the cooler, so we were late to the game. It was 21-0 Johnnies midway through the first quarter. I think it ended up 63-0, but Gagliardi simply ran the same three or four plays the entire game. You can't tell your players to break the line of scrimmage and then simply fall over. I worked the chain gang for Augsburg home games when they played at Parade Stadium and being on the sidelines with Gagliardi was a bit of a hoot. His behavior made Bud Grant look like a raving lunatic by comparison.

(2) St. Thomas gets the best of the second tier of Minnesota kids, but they have always cast a wider net in recruiting than the other MIAC schools. They have always done well getting kids out of Illinois and the Green Bay area. They have a lot of alumni sprinkled throughout the country and the loyalty of those alumni to St. Thomas seems greater than it does for other MIAC schools and leads to greater contact network. St. Thomas has done very well for itself in increasing enrollment and programs and maybe it's time for them to move on, but I think that should be their decision.
 

A couple points after reading the latest additions to this discussion:

1. Think about this the other way... St. Thomas, with their enrollement, growth, mission, institutional direction, etc. were an independant right now and were looking for a conference to join - would they be a good fit for the MIAC?

2. I am still seeing the "St. John's is next" comment and I disagree with that very much. The relative size, academic profile, etc. of St. John's in relation to the rest of the MIAC is no different today than it was in the 80's. Its football program is the same if not even a bit less of a dominant factor than it was back then. Across all sports, yes, it generally ranks second for mens sports but is usually only a couple points separated from Gustavus. For Women's sports, (St. Bens) is usually third behind St. Thomas and Gustavus. But the margins are much closer in both men's and women's sports to the rest of the MIAC than the big outlyer: St. Thomas.

3. The "rest" of the MIAC has indeed had a LOT of local Twin City media coverage and with or without St. Thomas included - it has been pretty consistently higher than what you'd expect from a D3 conference in a major media market. Even Macalester had a lot of attention when they had an impressive run in Men's basketball a few years back. Don't mistaken the coverage that St. Thomas has had due to having baseball, basketball, and football programs advancing deep into national tournaments as coverage that wouldn't exist if it were other MIAC schools in their place. The only exception to this is the WCCO deal which others have said is something St. Thomas actually pays for. It is an advantage no other conference school has.
 

Some guy said:
St Thomas couldn’t compete in the northern sun without millions of dollars in athletics scholarships that they don’t have.
Click to expand...

A) that’s a false claim that you made up out of thin air, B) ST’s players already receive defacti athletic scholarships, and that system could continue as is in DII.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom