STrib: MIAC rivals plot ouster of St. Thomas

[Some guy]

They go D1 and go Big East. Look who they hired as AD and that will tell you something. It’s a long play to go D1 and requires tons of money but they can do it. Go Non-Scholarship football and compete against the Drakes of the world in football. Perfect fit for Catholic Big East, west division with Marquette, DePaul, & Creighton.


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For sure, the big east would ignore major basketball powerhouses to take a school that just joined d1


Here is a list of schools that would all be picked by the big east before a newly formed d1 athletics department at st Thomas:
Drake
Stony Brook
Davdison
St Boneventure
George mason
Duquense
La Salle
St Joseph
George Washington
Fordham
Charleston
William and Mary
Drexel
Iona
Quinnicpiac
Rider
Sienna
Monmouth
Loyola Chicago
Bradley
Valpo
Boston U
Army
Navy
Colgate
Bucknell
Lehigh
American
The other Loyola
Lafayette
Holy cross


I only saw 31.
If you include possible FBS football candidates like temple, that list might grow to 50.
If you include some teams from further west that list might expand to 60-70.


I guess if the big east expands to 64 teams st Thomas might have a shot in a decade or so.

 

[Gopherphile]

Not surprising that you are well versed at low level football.


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Lol. I cringe at your Fleck posts but I’m channeling a major fist bump your way right now.


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[Gophers_4life]

There is a lot going on with St. Thomas and the MIAC regarding football that seems to be below the waterline.

Caruso is clearly a great recruiter and motivator, almost like a DIII Lou Holtz. I am surprised he has stayed at DIII St. Thomas so long. I thought an under achieving FCS program might have taken a run at him.

Despite all the success at St. Thomas, there seems to be a lot of turnover in the coaching staff. There might even be one HC, but there are many former St. Thomas assistant coaches and players coaching against Caruso now within the MIAC. At least two or three are fairly high profile.

Caruso seems to rub a lot of people the wrong way, inside St. Thomas as well as outside, but as long as he keeps winning it stays under the radar.

I bet Caruso would leave for the right calling.

He was actually at NDSU for a time, then that regime imploded (Bob Babich ... which led to the hiring of Craig Bohl). So maybe when their current new head coach gets called up somewhere else, they’d take a look at him? No idea, just a guess.

 

[Gophers_4life]

For DII Conf in the area, there is only the NSIC. The oft referred to in this thread, NCC, does not exist. It is extinct.

The NCC was absorbed by the Northern Sun. My bad, I said NCC above but I meant NSun.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Why would a school move to d2 and then not give any scholarships?
You think st Thomas wants to move up to d2 to lose?

There is zero extra revenue that comes from being d2 and all kinds of extra costs if you actually want to be competitive.

The only thing for certain is that it’s not as simple as you want it to appear to be.

A wild guess guess is that ST has rigged some way of getting their players “taken care of” financially, that technically doesn’t count per NCAA and MIAC books as an athletic scholarship, but de facto is exactly that. I have no evidence, you just wonder how Caruso keeps getting so much talent to pick them over other options.

So it’s not like having zero athletic scholarships automatically dooms them to last place in DII. And there’s more to budgets than just scholarships. Coaching salaries, recruiting budgets, facilities etc etc. would be interesting to see a feasibility study of ST in the NSun, comparing budgets, facilities, etc to those schools.

 

[Gophers_4life]

My guess is they stay in the MIAC and none of this actually anything more than rumor.


If they did get the boot, I would guess they would try to join Wisconsin conference and get turned down.
They then would play independent football and try to find some other conference for non-football sports.


Independent football schedule would be:
St Johns
Bethel
Concordia Moorhead
1-2 other MIAC schools (even macalester scheduled st Thomas non-conference as recent as 2009)
2-3 Wisconsin schools
1-4 random schools.


The big deal of them playing 4-6 MIAC schools as an independent instead of a conference member is st Thomas wouldn’t get the MIAC automatic bid and St Thomas would likely pay to play in 2-4 of those games. Which is why I don’t see them getting kicked out. Even if there is smoke here, it is more likely smoke to deal with some new money deal between the schools.

This is a pretty delusional take. The MIAC is voting to change its bylaws so that they’re then allowed to vote to remove ST. That is happening. It would’ve never gotten to an actual vote if it was smoke, or if something could’ve been worked out. It would’ve been worked out by now.

Something foundational is broken between ST and the MIAC.

I actually think the WIAC would be a good fit for them ... big schools with big DII-esque profiles, that are nationally competitive in DIII. Madison won’t let them be DII, even though it’s ridiculous that they aren’t.

 

[Some guy]

This is a pretty delusional take. The MIAC is voting to change its bylaws so that they’re then allowed to vote to remove ST. That is happening. It would’ve never gotten to an actual vote if it was smoke, or if something could’ve been worked out. It would’ve been worked out by now.

Something foundational is broken between ST and the MIAC.

I actually think the WIAC would be a good fit for them ... big schools with big DII-esque profiles, that are nationally competitive in DIII. Madison won’t let them be DII, even though it’s ridiculous that they aren’t.

It hasn’t gotten an actual vote yet

 

[Gophers_4life]

It hasn’t gotten an actual vote yet

"There will be a meeting of the 13 school presidents on April 18 to decide whether to move forward with this action, according to sources close to the situation. The school presidents would then take a final vote in late May, with nine votes required to expel St. Thomas. If it passes, the Tommies could be forced out after the 2020-21 school year."

That was printed in the Star Trib. That means it's all but fact that it's happening.

There would be zero reason to let that leak otherwise. They'd have kept it under wraps, if a deal was being worked out.

 

[hungan1]

What is next in DIII football? Oust Mount Union?

 

[Word]

"There will be a meeting of the 13 school presidents on April 18 to decide whether to move forward with this action, according to sources close to the situation. The school presidents would then take a final vote in late May, with nine votes required to expel St. Thomas. If it passes, the Tommies could be forced out after the 2020-21 school year."

That was printed in the Star Trib. That means it's all but fact that it's happening.

There would be zero reason to let that leak otherwise. They'd have kept it under wraps, if a deal was being worked out.

Well he was right to say the vote hasn't happened yet. If it happens it won't be til May.

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[BleedGopher]

per Shooter:

Pssst: Insiders say fireworks erupted between two veteran MIAC football coaches at recent league meetings while several schools want to oust St. Thomas from the conference for a couple of reasons besides the Tommies’ athletic dominance. By the way, if St. Thomas is booted out by school presidents, sources say St. John’s will be the next target.

https://www.twincities.com/2019/04/06/3329852/

Go Gophers!!

 

[Some guy]

"There will be a meeting of the 13 school presidents on April 18 to decide whether to move forward with this action, according to sources close to the situation. The school presidents would then take a final vote in late May, with nine votes required to expel St. Thomas. If it passes, the Tommies could be forced out after the 2020-21 school year."

That was printed in the Star Trib. That means it's all but fact that it's happening.

There would be zero reason to let that leak otherwise. They'd have kept it under wraps, if a deal was being worked out.

You can work in “all but facts”

I will work in facts



You have no idea who leaked it and for what purpose. Could be a st Thomas person leaking it in hopes backlash will fend off a vote.
Could be a St. John’s person leaking it in hopes of fending off a vote or getting a vote started.
Could be a small school leaking it to try to get the ball rolling.


The FACT is, nothing has happened yet.

 

[laazrakit]

For what it's worth, Minnesota does need a school to step up to FCS (I-AA) so kids from the state don't have to constantly leave to continue to play football... every year, it seems, there are 15-20 players from Minnesota on the roster at NDSU. I'd like to see them have the opportunity to stay home and play. It would be interesting to see St. Thomas try and compete at that level.

 

[xyz1]

As to the issue of Caruso leaving St. Thomas, I believe his wife has been battling cancer for quite some time, which might help explain why he would want to stay in one place.

 

[Gophers_4life]

For what it's worth, Minnesota does need a school to step up to FCS (I-AA) so kids from the state don't have to constantly leave to continue to play football... every year, it seems, there are 15-20 players from Minnesota on the roster at NDSU. I'd like to see them have the opportunity to stay home and play. It would be interesting to see St. Thomas try and compete at that level.

It would have to be St Thomas (or St John’s), one day. It’s not going to be St Cloud or Mankato, and U leadership will certainly never allow Duluth.

The Dakota schools give those opportunities to MN and Wisc players who aren’t good enough for Big Ten but are better than DII.

 

[Schnauzer]

There are no bad guys here. This isn’t sour grapes. It also isn’t only a discussion about football. St. Thomas simply chose to grow their athletic programs beyond what is normally seen in not only the MIAC, but D3 in general. Outside of the WIAC with the size of those institutions, St. Thomas simply doesn’t look like most D3 athletic programs.

Things like the WCCO deal also pile on to give them more advantages that other schools don’t have or in many cases even want. Do you think Hamline or Carleton, with the size and location of their alumni bases could get a broadcast deal like that with WCCO?

Telling schools in the lower half of the conference they need to try harder just falls on deaf ears. They are just doing what they have always done and like most D3 schools, keep their institutional focus elsewhere.

This ouster situation puts A LOT of pressure on schools like Gustavus and Concordia, which can still compete in football and other sports. It puts them squarely in the middle between St. Thomas which has grown its athletic programs outside the usual D3 footprint, and St. Olaf/Augsburg/Hamline/etc. which are threatening to pull out if STU stays. The MIAC might be weakened by the loss of the Tommies but it can’t exist at all if it only has 5-6 schools (GAC, STU, SJU, Concordia, Bethel, and maybe St. Olaf).

 

[hungan1]

The Pandora's box is open in the MIAC.

Big money and media influence is going to change the small DIII football forever.

How do you propose they fix it? From the perspective of most of the MIAC, STU has all the advantages.

How long will it be before they kick SJU out. It will be the ruination of the MIAC.

 

[highwayman]

So what do they do. Independent D3?

Nothing. STU will not be booted out of the MIAC. It would be a death-knell for D3 in Minnesota, and the league knows it.

 

[Some guy]

As to the issue of Caruso leaving St. Thomas, I believe his wife has been battling cancer for quite some time, which might help explain why he would want to stay in one place.

He is also a d3 guy.
He played at Ithaca

He had experience at the d2 level (maybe a year at the d1 level while the schools were in transition)

But why would he leave lifetime job security and 6 figures in St. Paul for a 4 year contract making the same amount of money in brookings, vermillion, or some other location?

 

[Some guy]

Nothing. STU will not be booted out of the MIAC. It would be a death-knell for D3 in Minnesota, and the league knows it.

I agree with this.
I wouldn’t be surprised if a new revenue sharing agreement regarding ncaa births, conference tourneys, and tv/radio deals is struck.

St. John’s football probably makes more money as a program than st Thomas.

 

[PMWinSTP]

The only thing for certain is that it’s not as simple as you want it to appear to be.

A wild guess guess is that ST has rigged some way of getting their players “taken care of” financially, that technically doesn’t count per NCAA and MIAC books as an athletic scholarship, but de facto is exactly that. I have no evidence, you just wonder how Caruso keeps getting so much talent to pick them over other options.

So it’s not like having zero athletic scholarships automatically dooms them to last place in DII. And there’s more to budgets than just scholarships. Coaching salaries, recruiting budgets, facilities etc etc. would be interesting to see a feasibility study of ST in the NSun, comparing budgets, facilities, etc to those schools.

Yes very wild guess...what about the Johnnies...for the past 35 years? Bethel?

 

[Gophers_4life]

There are no bad guys here. This isn’t sour grapes. It also isn’t only a discussion about football. St. Thomas simply chose to grow their athletic programs beyond what is normally seen in not only the MIAC, but D3 in general. Outside of the WIAC with the size of those institutions, St. Thomas simply doesn’t look like most D3 athletic programs.

Things like the WCCO deal also pile on to give them more advantages that other schools don’t have or in many cases even want. Do you think Hamline or Carleton, with the size and location of their alumni bases could get a broadcast deal like that with WCCO?

Telling schools in the lower half of the conference they need to try harder just falls on deaf ears. They are just doing what they have always done and like most D3 schools, keep their institutional focus elsewhere.

This ouster situation puts A LOT of pressure on schools like Gustavus and Concordia, which can still compete in football and other sports. It puts them squarely in the middle between St. Thomas which has grown its athletic programs outside the usual D3 footprint, and St. Olaf/Augsburg/Hamline/etc. which are threatening to pull out if STU stays. The MIAC might be weakened by the loss of the Tommies but it can’t exist at all if it only has 5-6 schools (GAC, STU, SJU, Concordia, Bethel, and maybe St. Olaf).

Great post!

St Thomas, the UWisc, and a few others in DIII don’t belong in the division, as institutions.

Amazing that some in this thread pretend to be so glib about the situation.

 

[Schnauzer]

The Pandora's box is open in the MIAC.

Big money and media influence is going to change the small DIII football forever.

How do you propose they fix it? From the perspective of most of the MIAC, STU has all the advantages.

How long will it be before they kick SJU out. It will be the ruination of the MIAC.

There have been a few comments here and elsewhere asking "how long before they kick SJU out?" The answer to that, in my opinion, is NEVER. They have had a dominant football program but their institution otherwise fits in very nicely with MIAC and elsewhere in D3 athletics. Everyone keeps focusing on football but the problem with STU is deeper than that. In a given year, they win something like like 16 out of 22 conference crowns in both Mens and Womens sports. SJU had a dominant football program in the past, and will likely continue to have one. Nobody is complaining about that. The problem is with the overall fit with St. Thomas in the league. The institution has changed in ways that other MIAC schools (including St. Johns) have not. Same with Mount Union. Great football program, and the rest of their athletics continue to fit in D3 with small schools pretty well.

St. Thomas has won the "all sports title" in the MIAC for over 10 years in a row now in both Men's and Women's sports. Here is the breakdown of winners (adding mens and womens wins) of this overall competion since it was tracked: Gustavus: 10 (last, Women 2007), St. Johns/St. Bens 16 (last 2007, Men), St. Thomas 59 (last, 2018 Men and Women), rest of MIAC combined: 8 (last St. Olaf Women 1985). As 2020 approaches with one school winning a salient number of the conference championships in all sports, you can see how things have tilted so heavily toward St. Thomas that it is no longer a great fit within the league. It was for different reasons, but others have been in the MIAC and have left. Both the MIAC and the departing institutions all survived. UMD was a member of the MIAC for quite a while.

The most difficult aspect of this is the SJU/STU football rivalry. Great tradition, huge crowds, etc. That is a sticking point no doubt that would have to be preserved somehow.

Ironically, despite growing so far out of the MIAC model in terms of the size of student body, outside of the Tommie Johnnie football game, you'd be hard pressed to find a St. Thomas student that is aware they even have an athletics program. I exaggerate obviously but the size of their fan sections have always run contrary to the corresponding size of their student body.

Also, Ironically, St. Thomas isn't exactly a juggernaught in football right now. They didn't win the conference last season, lost to Bethel and needed a last second miracle to beat Gustavus. They might be underdogs to St. Johns, Bethel, Gustavus, and perhaps Concordia this season. Yet, this potential ouster is in the news now. That is because it is about overall institutional fit and not just the solid run they have had in football in recent years.

 

[MaxyJR1]

per Shooter:

Pssst: Insiders say fireworks erupted between two veteran MIAC football coaches at recent league meetings while several schools want to oust St. Thomas from the conference for a couple of reasons besides the Tommies’ athletic dominance. By the way, if St. Thomas is booted out by school presidents, sources say St. John’s will be the next target.

https://www.twincities.com/2019/04/06/3329852/

Go Gophers!!

They would just be better off voting out all Universities. Why target one?

 

[Schnauzer]

They would just be better off voting out all Universities. Why target one?

Because the other Universities fit well both in overall size of institution and athletic programs, including St. Johns and of course Bethel and Hamiline.

 

[Panthadad2]

The only thing for certain is that it’s not as simple as you want it to appear to be.

A wild guess guess is that ST has rigged some way of getting their players “taken care of” financially, that technically doesn’t count per NCAA and MIAC books as an athletic scholarship, but de facto is exactly that. I have no evidence, you just wonder how Caruso keeps getting so much talent to pick them over other options.

So it’s not like having zero athletic scholarships automatically dooms them to last place in DII. And there’s more to budgets than just scholarships. Coaching salaries, recruiting budgets, facilities etc etc. would be interesting to see a feasibility study of ST in the NSun, comparing budgets, facilities, etc to those schools.

D3 athletes can get all kinds of financial aid even though there's technically no athletics scholarship. It starts with the Leadership scholarships (STU link example), academic scholarships that are often A LOT more generous than state schools, then financial need scholarships in general. The larger the endowment, the larger the financial aid can be. If STU was to move to D2 or even D1, I imagine the budgetary deck chairs would get rearranged and much of the leadership, academic and need-based money would get shifted into the athletic department budgets through athletic scholarships.

 

[SJUgopher]

Because the other Universities fit well both in overall size of institution and athletic programs, including St. Johns and of course Bethel and Hamiline.

SJU hardly is a university. Their grad school program is a school of theology, which graduates fewer than 50 a year.


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[Schnauzer]

SJU hardly is a university. Their grad school program is a school of theology, which graduates fewer than 50 a year.


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Yes. Makes sense (and my point, exactly).

 

[Panthadad2]

I've thought STU belongs in D1 (FCS for football) for a while now. They are building a national brand and have moved far beyond most D3 schools in that respect (with the exception of a very select few like UofChicago, MIT, etc.). Their facilities already rival many/most small D1 schools...except for football.

The average attendance for FCS football is about 8,000 per game. Excluding the St. John's game, STU is probably around 3,000-4,000 right now which would be better than most NSIC D2 rivals and similar to non-scholarship D1 Pioneer League members; but STU would need to play elsewhere or upgrade its football facilities to compete in scholarship FCS.

I have no idea what could happen to hockey as a move to D1 requires a move through D2 first (where there is no hockey).

 

[Word]

Has St. Thomas ever won the national title for football? Are they perennially in the final 4?
Maybe they are good in the MIAC but it's not like they are doing what NDSU is doing in D1-AA football.