STrib: MIAC rivals plot ouster of St. Thomas

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Panthadad2 said:
I thought five was the starting point all along at St. Olaf, Carleton, Mac, Augsburg, Hamline.
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Yes, after listening to the Ruesse Podcast I thought those were the five main ones, with the hope of picking up the non-football votes of St. Mary's, St. Benedicts, St. Catherines. There was a belief that two of the three had an axe to grind with St. Thomas related to competition of Nursing students.

With those eight, they just need one more to jump to get rid of them. I doubt they get all eight votes and the one more they need.

So, do not think it is going to happen, but now a major crack has started and I do not think it is going to get much better. St. Thomas is not going to fire Caruso, and St. Thomas is not going to start playing half speed. Some of these schools are going to want to leave the MIAC.

I can see St. Scholastica trying to get in the MIAC regardless. U cannot see the lowly UMAC teams wanting to deal with the likes of St. Olaf, with their huge bankroll and great facilities. so there is no clear answer for those wanting out of the current MIAC. Chances are they all stay put.
 
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Perhaps the schools that want St. Thomas out will start their own league if it doesn't happen. Kind of a messy situation and agree, there are no clear answers as Oak_street1981 says.
 

Panthadad2 said:
Yeah, not surprising (link). D2 schools (and non-revenue sport D1) often take a limited number of scholarships and split them fractionally among a bunch of student athletes.
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Correct, which is known as “equivalency” sports. There are a few sports (FBS football is one) that are called “headcount” sports. That means no matter how small of a fraction of a full scholarship you give to a player, it counts against you as a full. It doesn’t force you to only award fulls, but there’s no reason not to unless you’re just that poor.
 

Gophers_4life said:
St Olaf, Carleton, Augsburg, Hamline, MAC, and St Kate's in a new conf?

And if so, where does that leave Bethel, Gustavis, Condordia, and St Johns/St Bens?
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For many years there has been talk of the ACM (Associated Colleges of the Midwest) schools forming an athletic conference. Carleton, Mac, and St. Olaf are ACM schools. If UST is not voted out I could see those schools putting in the legwork to make that a reality.

The main drawback for the MN schools would be longer travel times to conference away games/meets/etc, but I'm sure they could try to work some scheduling magic to ease some of that. Colorado College is the only ACM school farther than six hours away, and they would likely not join the athletic conference. The ACM schools could make divisions so that no school had to travel farther than 4 hours for any in-division conference game.

I think Hamline, Augsburg, St. Kates, St. Mary's, and Bethel would likely join the UMAC. Gustavus and St. John's might join the American Rivers (old IIAC) conference. Not a clue what would happen with Concordia. They are kind of on an island. Might have to go UMAC as well.
 
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GeezoBeezo said:
No and they shouldn't. You are guessing correct.

I think if they boot them from MIAC based off a 5-10 year run in football would be irresponsible. We will see, I think it will turn out that the majority of the will keep them in the conference.
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It's about way more than football, much less a 5-10 year run in football.
 


bizzle22 said:
For many years there has been talk of the ACM (Associated Colleges of the Midwest) schools forming an athletic conference. Carleton, Mac, and St. Olaf are ACM schools. If UST is not voted out I could see those schools putting in the legwork to make that a reality.

The main drawback for the MN schools would be longer travel times to conference away games/meets/etc, but I'm sure they could try to work some scheduling magic to ease some of that. Colorado College is the only ACM school farther than six hours away, and they would likely not join the athletic conference. The ACM schools could make divisions so that no school had to travel farther than 4 hours for any in-division conference game.

I think Hamline, Augsburg, St. Kates, St. Mary's, and Bethel would likely join the UMAC. Gustavus and St. John's might join the American Rivers (old IIAC) conference. Not a clue what would happen with Concordia. They are kind of on an island. Might have to go UMAC as well.
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Or would St John/St Bens move up to NSun as well? Same question for Concordia (old rivalry with Moorhead). Gustavus vs Mankato might be fun too, but again it’s not free to move up. Would take serious alumni support at all these places. Have no idea if the will is there.
 

Gophers_4life said:
Or would St John/St Bens move up to NSun as well? Same question for Concordia (old rivalry with Moorhead). Gustavus vs Mankato might be fun too, but again it’s not free to move up. Would take serious alumni support at all these places. Have no idea if the will is there.
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I think those schools love D3 and would prefer to stay there unless the MIAC completely imploded beyond recognition. Moving up and getting rid of hockey would be a hard pill to swallow (doubt D1 hockey would be viable). That said, all three school's facilities are already superior to most schools in the NSIC so the extra D2 costs involved would be scholarship, coaches and administration. Travel would be moderately more for Gustavus and St. Johns. Concordia would love to get the MSU Moorhead rivalry back but that's probably wishful thinking.
 

Gophers_4life said:
Or would St John/St Bens move up to NSun as well? Same question for Concordia (old rivalry with Moorhead). Gustavus vs Mankato might be fun too, but again it’s not free to move up. Would take serious alumni support at all these places. Have no idea if the will is there.
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I suppose that's possible, but I don't think any of those schools want that or would be good fits for D2.

Especially Gustavus. Zero percent chance they'd consider D2. Their first option might be to try to get Carleton/Mac/Olaf to put in a good word for them with the ACM conference. If that fails the American Rivers makes a lot of sense.

Concordia is in such an awkward location. I don't think they have the financial capability to move to D2 though the rivalry with MSU-Moorhead would be nice. Still think they'd be much more likely to either join the UMAC or go back to NAIA. Guess they could be a D3 independent for a few years as well. But D2 might be an option. They are just kind of a an odd one. Not really sure what would happen.

Johnnies/Bennies would be in a weird spot too. They would dominate the UMAC in everything so I don't think they go there. Just think the American Rivers makes sense for them. They fit well with those institutions, but the travel would be a pain. Probably capable of competing at the D2 level in some sports, but I don't think they're a good D2 fit as an institution. Pretty sure they'd stay D3.
 

There are lots of schools that would love to join the MIAC. I predict the MIAC will still exist. The big question is if the schools that are threatening leaving do so if St. Thomas stays. If they do leave, then the MIAC would have to endure some sort of major shift, either need to align with another conference (like the WIAC) in "haves" and "have not" divisions, or replace the outgoing schools with new institutions that would have to step up their athletic departments big time, even with a D3 to D3 conference move. As others have stated, there is a HUGE difference within D3 of top athletic conferences like the MIAC and lots of crappy barely-better-than high school conferences. It seems strange that Augsburg, St. Olaf, etc. would potentially exit the conference to be replaced by incoming institutions with athletic departments that would currently rank below the ones that would be leaving. So, they would have to be full of ambition and have a vision or they would eternally be in the same situation as the outgoing schools.

One way or another St. John's, Gustavus, and Bethel will almost certainly continue to be the in the same conference. Likewise Augsburg, Hamline, St. Olaf, Macalester and Carleton will also likely be together in all circumstances. Concordia might have some decisions to make and of course St. Thomas will definitely have decisions to make if it is kicked out. My best guess is one of two things happen. If St. Thomas is kicked out the MIAC will stay the same in regards to all other schools, with the only change being Macalester would reappear as an MIAC football member. If St. Thomas stays it is status quo and everything remains the same. I'd be at least moderately surprised at any other result.

In some ways, this reminds me of the UMD exit from the conference. Like St. Thomas, they just "fit" better with other types of schools. The big difference is UMD left on their own after a LONG membership within the MIAC, and St. Thomas would be exiting by being kicked out.
 



bizzle22 said:
I suppose that's possible, but I don't think any of those schools want that or would be good fits for D2.

Especially Gustavus. Zero percent chance they'd consider D2. Their first option might be to try to get Carleton/Mac/Olaf to put in a good word for them with the ACM conference. If that fails the American Rivers makes a lot of sense.

Concordia is in such an awkward location. I don't think they have the financial capability to move to D2 though the rivalry with MSU-Moorhead would be nice. Still think they'd be much more likely to either join the UMAC or go back to NAIA. Guess they could be a D3 independent for a few years as well. But D2 might be an option. They are just kind of a an odd one. Not really sure what would happen.

Johnnies/Bennies would be in a weird spot too. They would dominate the UMAC in everything so I don't think they go there. Just think the American Rivers makes sense for them. They fit well with those institutions, but the travel would be a pain. Probably capable of competing at the D2 level in some sports, but I don't think they're a good D2 fit as an institution. Pretty sure they'd stay D3.
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When you combine them, which is fair in my opinion, are they in a worse position than Sioux Falls or Mary? Those are DII schools. Maybe not the most competitive, but they are.

ToJo is very important to both, perhaps enough motivation to make a move? Don’t know.
 

Schnauzer said:
There are lots of schools that would love to join the MIAC. I predict the MIAC will still exist. The big question is if the schools that are threatening leaving do so if St. Thomas stays. If they do leave, then the MIAC would have to endure some sort of major shift, either need to align with another conference (like the WIAC) in "haves" and "have not" divisions, or replace the outgoing schools with new institutions that would have to step up their athletic departments big time, even with a D3 to D3 conference move. As others have stated, there is a HUGE difference within D3 of top athletic conferences like the MIAC and lots of crappy barely-better-than high school conferences. It seems strange that Augsburg, St. Olaf, etc. would potentially exit the conference to be replaced by incoming institutions with athletic departments that would currently rank below the ones that would be leaving. So, they would have to be full of ambition and have a vision or they would eternally be in the same situation as the outgoing schools.

One way or another St. John's, Gustavus, and Bethel will almost certainly continue to be the in the same conference. Likewise Augsburg, Hamline, St. Olaf, Macalester and Carleton will also likely be together in all circumstances. Concordia might have some decisions to make and of course St. Thomas will definitely have decisions to make if it is kicked out. My best guess is one of two things happen. If St. Thomas is kicked out the MIAC will stay the same in regards to all other schools, with the only change being Macalester would reappear as an MIAC football member. If St. Thomas stays it is status quo and everything remains the same. I'd be at least moderately surprised at any other result.

In some ways, this reminds me of the UMD exit from the conference. Like St. Thomas, they just "fit" better with other types of schools. The big difference is UMD left on their own after a LONG membership within the MIAC, and St. Thomas would be exiting by being kicked out.
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UMD also left the old NSun to join the NCC, but that was right as the NCC was starting to fall apart.
 


Prediction....the vote will be 12-1 to remove UST from the MIAC. I also don't think it's about football nearly as much as people on here think....UST just outgrew the league, and probably Division III as well.
 



Gophers_4life said:
UMD also left the old NSun to join the NCC, but that was right as the NCC was starting to fall apart.
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And they went to the NCC because the NSIC limits scholarships under what is allowed under D2. If I recall, SCSU, Mankato and UMD were not entirely happy when the NCC collapsed, because then they had to cut scholarships again to go back to the NSIC.

If the MIAC implodes (and I'm not sure it will) Concordia's best bet might be to go NAIA, and join the NSAA. They'd be in a conference with nearby schools Valley City State and Mayville State. They'd be in the middle as far as enrollment goes. Another NAIA option would be the GPAC, with Jamestown being the closest school.

Another school in that area that I have to question is UM-Crookston. They went D2 a few years ago (and had to drop hockey as a result) and it's been more or less a miserable failure. They're almost always in the bottom of the conference in everything. Their enrollment is only 1800 or so, which is along the lines of D3/NAIA schools. I don't understand why they don't drop back down like Morris did. (to be honest, I don't know why UMC even exists).
 

discochris said:
And they went to the NCC because the NSIC limits scholarships under what is allowed under D2. If I recall, SCSU, Mankato and UMD were not entirely happy when the NCC collapsed, because then they had to cut scholarships again to go back to the NSIC.

If the MIAC implodes (and I'm not sure it will) Concordia's best bet might be to go NAIA, and join the NSAA. They'd be in a conference with nearby schools Valley City State and Mayville State. They'd be in the middle as far as enrollment goes. Another NAIA option would be the GPAC, with Jamestown being the closest school.

Another school in that area that I have to question is UM-Crookston. They went D2 a few years ago (and had to drop hockey as a result) and it's been more or less a miserable failure. They're almost always in the bottom of the conference in everything. Their enrollment is only 1800 or so, which is along the lines of D3/NAIA schools. I don't understand why they don't drop back down like Morris did. (to be honest, I don't know why UMC even exists).
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Same reason why North Dakota has *SIX* four-year universities. Politics.

There is no possible value that Crookston and Morris bring to the UM system, except more voting and lobbying power from more regions of the state. Both of those should be NAIA, along with Mayville and Valley City.


Concordia historically competed just fine with Moorhead. Not saying Moorhead should be DII, but I’d they're doing OK in the NSun, then I think Concordia would too.
 
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If I had to guess:

option 1: MIAC schools vote St. Thomas Out. MIAC stays the same, but brings in Macalester for FB.

Option 2: vote to kick out St. Thomas fails. MIAC decides to drop football as a conference sport, but the conference continues for everything else. The FB teams play a wild game of musical Conference chairs. I could see Augsburg, Gustavus, St. Olaf, Hamline and Carleton joining the Iowa schools in a new expanded football conference with two divisions. I just don't see any MIAC schools going into the UMAC. That would be seen as a major step down.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
If I had to guess:

option 1: MIAC schools vote St. Thomas Out. MIAC stays the same, but brings in Macalester for FB.

Option 2: vote to kick out St. Thomas fails. MIAC decides to drop football as a conference sport, but the conference continues for everything else. The FB teams play a wild game of musical Conference chairs. I could see Augsburg, Gustavus, St. Olaf, Hamline and Carleton joining the Iowa schools in a new expanded football conference with two divisions. I just don't see any MIAC schools going into the UMAC. That would be seen as a major step down.
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I cannot imagine Option 2. I just don't see them all essentially volunteering to find a new home for football. I could see a compromise where UST agrees to find another conference in football, but even that is doubtful. As so many others on here have mentioned, it's about way more than football. Football is just the most visible issue.
 

Gophers_4life said:
Same reason why North Dakota has *SIX* four-year universities. Politics.

There is no possible value that Crookston and Morris bring to the UM system, except more voting and lobbying power from more regions of the state. Both of those should be NAIA, along with Mayville and Valley City.


Concordia historically competed just fine with Moorhead. Not saying Moorhead should be DII, but I’d they're doing OK in the NSun, then I think Concordia would too.
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The six four year universities in ND I believe are enshrined in the state constitution from the time of statehood making it extremely difficult to eliminate them.
But yes, there's no reason for Mayville State to exist other than that.

Morris is a unique niche school in the UM System. I understand why it's there. Crookston makes no sense to me whatsoever. It should have closed when Waseca closed.

One issue with Concordia going D2. I believe they have hockey, meaning drop it or go D1. Not that it's a bad idea, because the FM area has no D1 hockey team. MSUM considered it about 5-10 years ago, but couldn't justify the cost.
 

The MIAC is one of the best D3 conferences in the country.

Why would anybody want to break it up completely?
 

Studwell55 said:
The MIAC is one of the best D3 conferences in the country.

Why would anybody want to break it up completely?
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You are correct and I don't think that will happen. Some of this discussion has taken on a life of its own with speculation over things that are highly unlikely to be discussed or proposed in the process of considering the removal of St. Thomas.

The only part that makes a "break up" a legit talking point is the threat that some schools are making to leave the MIAC if St. Thomas stays. If they were to back up that threat - the MIAC viability becomes an issue.
 

There are no winners no matter which way they decide. When are they voting?
 



Decision postponed. I hear they want to peruse the StarTrib and Pioneer Press comment boards, and Gopher Hole a little longer for guidance on how to handle this.
 

Vote postponed because they didn’t have a vote.

They didn’t want to have a vote that didn’t have the votes to pass. Just a bad look.
 

Some guy said:
Vote postponed because they didn’t have a vote.

They didn’t want to have a vote that didn’t have the votes to pass. Just a bad look.
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"Not going to comment on this thread any more until something actually happens with a vote"
 

They didn't vote because they never planned to vote today. The plan was always to vote in May.

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk
 

AO54 said:
They didn't vote because they never planned to vote today. The plan was always to vote in May.

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk
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So, are the plans for ouster in May still on course? The articles from 4/18 made it sound like the ouster was being backed off.
 

Herd said:
So, are the plans for ouster in May still on course? The articles from 4/18 made it sound like the ouster was being backed off.
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They will vote on the bylaws in May, but may not technically vote out St. Thomas during that meeting even though they would be in violation of the new bylaws. They would then vote to boot St. Thomas during the next meeting.
 

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