STrib: MIAC rivals plot ouster of St. Thomas

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Gophers_4life said:
Great points.

Also don't forget lots of NSun (particularly the MN schools) alumni living in the Twin Cities, that might take advantage of a chance to see the team play without having to make a 2-5 hr drive each way.
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I honestly don't think that many public school NSIC alumni care all that much about their alma maters.
It's a completely different culture than the MIAC private colleges. It's a place to get a degree and then go get a job. Not a tight knit community.
 

Schnauzer said:
St. Thomas averaged 2600 for home games last year with an undergrad population of near 7000 in the heart of the metro, Gustavus averaged 2123 in a marginal season for them, with a student population of about 2200 with their stadium located over an hour away from the Twin Cities. I distinctly recall two different MIAC basketball championship games at St. Thomas where Gustavus fans and students outnumbered St. Thomas fans by as much as 5 or 6 to 1 - in St. Thomas' arena. The attendance ratio of students has long lagged at St. Thomas compared to some other MIAC schools. Despite the success, national championships in multiple sports, and size of the institution - St. Thomas just doesn't draw fans outside of their rivalry with St. Johns. This has been the case for a long time and I don't suspect it would change in the future if they remain in D3 or even move up to D2. In my opinion only the jolt of D1 would catch their student's attention (or if they could play St. Johns all 10 football games).

This is all off the main point here - which is the possible move that some in the MIAC are considering to oust St. Thomas. It is interesting to hear Reussee with the dirty laundry of exactly who is behind this and who is lining up with them. I'm sure St. Olaf doesn't like it that this news is out there.
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Likely because there are a lot more things to do in the Twin Cities than in St. Peter or Northfield. St. Olaf practically imprisons their students on campus for the first few years, or they did when one of my good friends went there. I thought the atmosphere was horrifying.
 

Some guy said:
Not even close.
#1


#2 is completely different culturally

#3 some people like to think. Almost every grad of st Thomas could tell you where Marquette, drake, creighton, Butler, are located. But most grads of those schools couldn’t even tell you where the University of St thomas is. I have worn a st Thomas sweatshirt in multiple places around the country and been asked if it was worth it to take a vacation there (this has happened to me in Phoenix, JFK, and O’Hare). St Thomas isn’t close to being the brand of the schools you put in number 3.
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Your actually making my point with the #3 comment. My comparison lists were for institutional peer groups, not branding. The only reason anybody outside the Midwest has ever heard of Marquette, Drake, Creighton, Bradley, Butler, Loyola or DePaul is because of their D1 athletics and mainly basketball at that. St. Thomas (at #124 National University) is academically ranked higher Drake, Creighton, Bradley and Butler (all considered regional universities, not national); very close to DePaul (#119); and moderatley behind Marquette and Loyola (both #89). UST fits with those schools institutionally but doesn't get the same national recognition because of its D3 athletics.
 

I mean seriously...99.9999% (or more) of the Minnesota population could care less about st Thomas football team. All you st Thomas glory-seekers can spew your love for them all you want...just do it somewhere else...no one else really gives a sh*t.
 

This thread has gone on pretty good for a Minnesota Gopher Football Board and not a St. Thomas fan board.
 


This op/ed piece is intentially and successfully funny:

http://www.startribune.com/don-t-boot-st-thomas-from-the-minnesota-intercollegiate-athletic-conference/508345162/

It does bring up a pretty interesting potential conference realignment idea between the MIAC and the WIAC. Probably unlikely, but I'm assuming it would be a divide between the haves and the have-nots within the two conferences.

Just daydreaming, but from the MIAC side it would likely be St. Thomas, Bethel, Gustavus, St. Johns, and then Concordia with some tough choices being on the fence, especially with the potential distances, to join some upper half arrangement of the WIAC.

I doubt this would happen and if anything happens I would suspect it would simply be pretty much the MIAC as it is today, either with or without STU.
 
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Some guy said:
Not even close.
#1


#2 is completely different culturally

#3 some people like to think. Almost every grad of st Thomas could tell you where Marquette, drake, creighton, Butler, are located. But most grads of those schools couldn’t even tell you where the University of St thomas is. I have worn a st Thomas sweatshirt in multiple places around the country and been asked if it was worth it to take a vacation there (this has happened to me in Phoenix, JFK, and O’Hare). St Thomas isn’t close to being the brand of the schools you put in number 3.
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Some guy, you're heavily invested in this thread in keeping St Thomas in the MIAC. Just curious, why? What are your reasons, that you'd vote it down, if given a vote?
 

MNfootballfan said:
Big East would be quite the jump, although it isn't the same Big East with Georgetown, Syracuse, UConn, Boston College, Virginia Tech, Miami, Virginia Tech, etc. Not saying they would be ready for the Big East after a transition period but some of the big heavy hitters are gone.

Missouri Valley (Drake, Bardley, Loyola) or Summit (UND, NDSU, Omaha, USD, SDSU) would be more realistic options if they chose to go that route.
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Summit is the only realistic option, unless ST can get its bball arena capacity and attendance way up. Of course, you can bake that into my comment about needing 15+ years and hundreds of millions of dollars ...

I just saw Creighton, Marquette, DePaul, and Butler on that list and my mind went to Big East.

A much better comparison, though, would be Seattle University, with huge UW right there in the metro. They moved (back) to DI about a decade ago, but have basically just been middling in the now low-major WAC in MBB since then. They had been in the NAIA since the 80's, but went back to the NCAA first as DIII, then as DII from 2001-2008.
 
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discochris said:
I honestly don't think that many public school NSIC alumni care all that much about their alma maters.
It's a completely different culture than the MIAC private colleges. It's a place to get a degree and then go get a job. Not a tight knit community.
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All depends on what you mean, I suppose. I know plenty of UMD alumni that "care". And even go back to Duluth to visit. That might be a special case.

Maybe not as much St Cloud and Mankato.


Again, a lot of the MIAC schools are in the metro or reasonable close. Not 2-5hr drives away.
 



Panthadad2 said:
Your actually making my point with the #3 comment. My comparison lists were for institutional peer groups, not branding. The only reason anybody outside the Midwest has ever heard of Marquette, Drake, Creighton, Bradley, Butler, Loyola or DePaul is because of their D1 athletics and mainly basketball at that. St. Thomas (at #124 National University) is academically ranked higher Drake, Creighton, Bradley and Butler (all considered regional universities, not national); very close to DePaul (#119); and moderatley behind Marquette and Loyola (both #89). UST fits with those schools institutionally but doesn't get the same national recognition because of its D3 athletics.
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Exactly! St. Thomas doesn't get the national pub that the other schools get because very few casual fans care how UST does in their sports and MIGHT tune in if they are playing in the D3 Championship.
 

Gophers_4life said:
All depends on what you mean, I suppose. I know plenty of UMD alumni that "care". And even go back to Duluth to visit. That might be a special case.
Maybe not as much St Cloud and Mankato.
Again, a lot of the MIAC schools are in the metro or reasonable close. Not 2-5hr drives away.
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Good point about UMD. I think a lot of that has to do with their large following in hockey. I don't see that level of engagement with alumni from Winona, St. Cloud, SMSU or Moorhead. I do stand by my statement in general though. It's a completely different culture.
 

discochris said:
Good point about UMD. I think a lot of that has to do with their large following in hockey. I don't see that level of engagement with alumni from Winona, St. Cloud, SMSU or Moorhead. I do stand by my statement in general though. It's a completely different culture.
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Duluth is also a cool place to visit, for a good part of the year, and is "only" a 2-2.5hr drive. Granted, St Cloud and Mankato aren't super long drives, but not sure those towns are as "compelling" for trips, unless you really, really want to see a game there.

Winona isn't too long, with good driving conditions, but that school is relatively tiny. Moorhead is also relatively tiny, and is a 4hr drive (some less, some more, depending where in the metro you are) and also not a "compelling" trip. Marshall, similar to Moorhead, but with 2-lane highways.


Liberal arts colleges are small, and have very active alumni/professional networks. No offense, but it's "usually" wealthier families that send their kids to these schools as well. Similar to private high schools. They need a lot of active fundraising/giving efforts. Going to a MNSCU campus, like you said, you're trying to get in & get out with your degree and move on with your life.
 
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harley_gopher said:
I mean seriously...99.9999% (or more) of the Minnesota population could care less about st Thomas football team. All you st Thomas glory-seekers can spew your love for them all you want...just do it somewhere else...no one else really gives a sh*t.
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Sorry it seemed like an interesting subject to debate. I guess we could just sit there with our mouth hanging slightly open, breathing through our noses with a dull look in our eyes like yourself, but it seemed to make more sense to discuss a news worthy topic.
 

Gophers_4life said:
As has been noted, SJ and ST "average" attendance gets a huge boost by ToJo. I mean for goodness sake, 30k+ went to Target Field for that game a couple years ago. I think the year before that, they set the stadium record up in Collegeville with like 1x thousand (forget how much exactly) overflow crowd.

Bethel is a devout religious community, and is usually a winning team. Concordia Moorhead usually has a good team too, and the main private (Lutheran) school for F-M.
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SJU's average attendance in 2017. (they did not play St. Thomas in Collegeville that year) they averaged over 6,000 fans. Im guessing that's probably double of what even the better attended NSIC teams get.
 

I can't find a link, but I believe as a DII school they can play in DIII hockey but can't in the playoffs. There is one DII hockey conference, but as such no NCAA playoff or champion. Likely if UST goes DII, they'd invest to go DI in hockey. If they could join the WCHA that'd be a HUGE boost. I wonder if they could play at TRIA rink or Roy Wilkins?
 

Lakeville Goldy said:
I can't find a link, but I believe as a DII school they can play in DIII hockey but can't in the playoffs. There is one DII hockey conference, but as such no NCAA playoff or champion. Likely if UST goes DII, they'd invest to go DI in hockey. If they could join the WCHA that'd be a HUGE boost. I wonder if they could play at TRIA rink or Roy Wilkins?
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Tria is very nice but small. Smaller than the STA rink they play in now.

There used to be ice in the fairgrounds coliseum but they got rid of that a few years ago (equip was old and failing). Would be many millions to get it back with new equipment. Also guessing Roy W doesn’t have ice anymore.

They could rent Ridder. Otherwise I’m not sure if there are really any other options short of building a new rink or expanding the STA rink.
 
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Gophers_4life said:
Some guy, you're heavily invested in this thread in keeping St Thomas in the MIAC. Just curious, why? What are your reasons, that you'd vote it down, if given a vote?
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I don’t think the MIAC will vote them out.

From my experience, no way UST wants to move up.
From my experience, no way UST can afford to move up without playing non-scholarship football or dropping football.


All of those things tell me they stay D3. If they are D3 the best place for them is the MIAC.


If they get voted out, I’m sure they’ll explore their options. My guess would be an attempt to get into Wisconsin conference.
 

Lakeville Goldy said:
I can't find a link, but I believe as a DII school they can play in DIII hockey but can't in the playoffs. There is one DII hockey conference, but as such no NCAA playoff or champion. Likely if UST goes DII, they'd invest to go DI in hockey. If they could join the WCHA that'd be a HUGE boost. I wonder if they could play at TRIA rink or Roy Wilkins?
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They can’t play up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 


They won't get voted out. There will be some sort of negotiated settlement. It could be an official revenue sharing deal (unlikely) or a non-official not-spoken-about-in-public agreement to never run up the score on another team. I don't think you'll see any 70-0 ST football wins in the future. That's really what this is all about, don't embarrass any of the other schools. MIAC schools aren't that focused on athletics. Given the choice of being ranked higher in academics or higher in athletics, they're going to pick academics (unlike say any SEC school other than Vanderbilt). There will be some sort of rules put in place to keep blowouts from happening. If you're up by x amount in the second half, go to a running clock, put in all reserves, and if you're still running up the score, give the third-string place kicker and punter a chance to be QB and running back -- something that keeps the scores from embarrassing the losing school.
 

Livingat45north said:
They won't get voted out. There will be some sort of negotiated settlement. It could be an official revenue sharing deal (unlikely) or a non-official not-spoken-about-in-public agreement to never run up the score on another team. I don't think you'll see any 70-0 ST football wins in the future. That's really what this is all about, don't embarrass any of the other schools. MIAC schools aren't that focused on athletics. Given the choice of being ranked higher in academics or higher in athletics, they're going to pick academics (unlike say any SEC school other than Vanderbilt). There will be some sort of rules put in place to keep blowouts from happening. If you're up by x amount in the second half, go to a running clock, put in all reserves, and if you're still running up the score, give the third-string place kicker and punter a chance to be QB and running back -- something that keeps the scores from embarrassing the losing school.
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Revenue sharing is a no go. D3 schools get their athletic revenue from incremental tuition, room & board by attracting student athletes to the school. There's nothing to share. I believe St. Thomas pays WCCO to broadcast games as a form of advertising. I can't believe a negotiated settlement would include a clause where UST states "we solemnly promise we won't kick your ass in football".
 

Laughing at the concept of revenue sharing in the MIAC.

Football team has 100 players. Average tuition probably 30,000? Thats $3 million. Pay coaches, facilities, equipment, etc and I think you’re at a huge gain
 


Panthadad2 said:
Revenue sharing is a no go. D3 schools get their athletic revenue from incremental tuition, room & board by attracting student athletes to the school. There's nothing to share. I believe St. Thomas pays WCCO to broadcast games as a form of advertising. I can't believe a negotiated settlement would include a clause where UST states "we solemnly promise we won't kick your ass in football".
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If it’s gotten so bad that ST beats teams 70-0 ... then they don’t belong. They need to go.

What more do they have to prove?? Take on a new challenge.
 

St. Thomas has to decide what they value most. Do they want to be a member of the MIAC - which means being part of a league with a common approach to academics and athletics - or do they want to be this athletic powerhouse?

If athletics is the most important thing, then leave the MIAC and accept the consequences. play an independent D3 schedule, or bite the bullet and move up to D2.

right now, St. Thomas is trying to have their cake and eat it, too.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
St. Thomas has to decide what they value most. Do they want to be a member of the MIAC - which means being part of a league with a common approach to academics and athletics - or do they want to be this athletic powerhouse?

If athletics is the most important thing, then leave the MIAC and accept the consequences. play an independent D3 schedule, or bite the bullet and move up to D2.

right now, St. Thomas is trying to have their cake and eat it, too.
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St Thomas is still distant to Mount Union and Mary Hardin Baylor. They lost to St John's this year. It's not like they win national championships every year at the D3 level.
St Thomas as wealthy donors. They are growing most of their programs and funding them for innovation at a much higher level than other Universities in Minnesota. That revenue stream is impressive...unless you are competing in those same fields of education. If you are the sisters of the poor, you struggle to grow when St Thomas has the shiny bells and whistles.
 
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short ornery norwegian said:
St. Thomas has to decide what they value most. Do they want to be a member of the MIAC - which means being part of a league with a common approach to academics and athletics - or do they want to be this athletic powerhouse?

If athletics is the most important thing, then leave the MIAC and accept the consequences. play an independent D3 schedule, or bite the bullet and move up to D2.

right now, St. Thomas is trying to have their cake and eat it, too.
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I think they should stay in the MIAC, as they are being punished for being much better than their peers (other than SJU, Bethel football) They are not gaming the system or cheating, they just get more, better players and hire better coaches.


The only other real great option is to play Pioneer league, non scholarship DIAA football like Butler, Dayton, and the University of San Diego and go DI in Basketball with Hockey being an unknown. (or go the NSDU route)
 


MennoSota said:
St Thomas is still distant to Mount Union and Mary Hardin Baylor. They lost to St John's this year. It's not like they win national championships every year at the D3 level.
St Thomas as wealthy donors. They are growing most of their programs and funding them for innovation at a much higher level than other Universities in Minnesota. That revenue stream is impressive...unless you are competing in those same fields of education. If you are the sisters of the poor, you struggle to grow when St Thomas has the shiny bells and whistles.
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Yep.
 

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