STrib: MIAC rivals plot ouster of St. Thomas

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Schnauzer said:
A couple points after reading the latest additions to this discussion:

1. Think about this the other way... St. Thomas, with their enrollement, growth, mission, institutional direction, etc. were an independant right now and were looking for a conference to join - would they be a good fit for the MIAC?

2. I am still seeing the "St. John's is next" comment and I disagree with that very much. The relative size, academic profile, etc. of St. John's in relation to the rest of the MIAC is no different today than it was in the 80's. Its football program is the same if not even a bit less of a dominant factor than it was back then. Across all sports, yes, it generally ranks second for mens sports but is usually only a couple points separated from Gustavus. For Women's sports, (St. Bens) is usually third behind St. Thomas and Gustavus. But the margins are much closer in both men's and women's sports to the rest of the MIAC than the big outlyer: St. Thomas.

3. The "rest" of the MIAC has indeed had a LOT of local Twin City media coverage and with or without St. Thomas included - it has been pretty consistently higher than what you'd expect from a D3 conference in a major media market. Even Macalester had a lot of attention when they had an impressive run in Men's basketball a few years back. Don't mistaken the coverage that St. Thomas has had due to having baseball, basketball, and football programs advancing deep into national tournaments as coverage that wouldn't exist if it were other MIAC schools in their place. The only exception to this is the WCCO deal which others have said is something St. Thomas actually pays for. It is an advantage no other conference school has.
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Wasn’t Caruso behind a bit of a revival in MAC football, and then he got plucked by ST? I seem to recall MAC getting coverage on that, even.


St John’s football I think had a special run in the 2000’s when they had a bunch of NDSU players transfer in (or maybe from another school?). Outside that, have they still been pretty dominant in the MIAC? Honest question.
 

Hypothetically, would the NSIC even want St. Thomas? That conference is all over the place in terms of school types and emphasis on athletics, but St. Thomas would be somewhat of an outlier there too (national comprehensive urban university with strong alumni financial support).
 

They’d take them to replace Augustana, in a second. Catholic private for a catholic private, plus gain more teams in Mpls.
 

Gophers_4life said:
A) that’s a false claim that you made up out of thin air, B) ST’s players already receive defacti athletic scholarships, and that system could continue as is in DII.
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You have no idea what you’re talking about. If you think most players on the UST football team are going for free you are badly mistaken.
 

They can entertain going Independent. I sure hate to see the Johnnie-Tommie rivalry come to an end.
 


Some guy said:
You have no idea what you’re talking about. If you think most players on the UST football team are going for free you are badly mistaken.
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I'm not gonna speak for another poster, but I think the point is that most serious athletes at St. Thomas (and most good D3 schools) can get substantial financial aid through leadership scholarships, academic scholarships, and other general aid. The education cost isn't free, but it is often greatly reduced.

Most D2 programs are not fully funded with full athletic scholarships; an athlete will often get a fractional athletic scholarship for partial tuition (if any), academic scholarship if qualified, and other general aid. Under a D2 scenario, some of the former financial aid already paid as a D3 school would get shifted in name to athletic scholarships (instead of leadership, academic, general, etc.). Very few D2 athletes get a "free ride" like the top D1 football and basketball players might.
 
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Gophers_4life said:
Wasn’t Caruso behind a bit of a revival in MAC football, and then he got plucked by ST? I seem to recall MAC getting coverage on that, even.


St John’s football I think had a special run in the 2000’s when they had a bunch of NDSU players transfer in (or maybe from another school?). Outside that, have they still been pretty dominant in the MIAC? Honest question.
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No. They had Kyle Gearman, that was about it.
 




Some guy said:
You have no idea what you’re talking about. If you think most players on the UST football team are going for free you are badly mistaken.
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The cap on scholarship equivalencies in the NSun is in the 20’s, I believe.

Would be willing to bet that ST football players are getting scholarships that they wouldn’t have gotten otherwise that add up to more equivalencies than that.

So it is you who don’t have a clue, I’m afraid.
 

Panthadad2 said:
I'm not gonna speak for another poster, but I think the point is that most serious athletes at St. Thomas (and most good D3 schools) can get substantial financial aid through leadership scholarships, academic scholarships, and other general aid. The education cost isn't free, but it is often greatly reduced.

Most D2 programs are not fully funded with full athletic scholarships; an athlete will often get a fractional athletic scholarship for partial tuition (if any), academic scholarship if qualified, and other general aid. Under a D2 scenario, some of the former financial aid already paid as a D3 school would get shifted in name to athletic scholarships (instead of leadership, academic, general, etc.). Very few D2 athletes get a "free ride" like the top D1 football and basketball players might.
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Great post! 100% correct
 

SJUgopher said:
No. They had Kyle Gearman, that was about it.
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I had heard that a bunch of NDSU players transferred there. Maybe they weren’t starters or maybe that didn’t happen. Too lazy to look it up.

But my understanding is that with the very lax practices that Gagliardi ran, it was a place where guys would go so they didn’t have to practice or workout hard, and just had more raw talent than everyone else.
 

Gophers_4life said:
I had heard that a bunch of NDSU players transferred there. Maybe they weren’t starters or maybe that didn’t happen. Too lazy to look it up.

But my understanding is that with the very lax practices that Gagliardi ran, it was a place where guys would go so they didn’t have to practice or workout hard, and just had more raw talent than everyone else.
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With all due respect - St. John's under Gagliardi had a philosophy of no hard contact in practice. That is not the same as a "lax" practice. You don't win National Championships without practicing and working out hard. Yes, they had good athletes. They were also very prepared, and they were in good shape. that doesn't happen without hard work. They just weren't hitting each other in practice. Some people may equate that with being lax. I equate it with a different approach. An approach that worked.
 



No matter the vote outcome, the MIAC membership is fractured, probably beyond repair, and I doubt the conference exists in in its current form a few years from now. This isn't a recent phenoma, it goes back to the early 2000s when UST originally considered moving up and out. If UST stays, then St. Olaf, Carleton, Augsburg and Hamline (and others? - Mac already switched football conferences) have reportedly threatened to exit. That would blow up the conference as it would lose its automatic bid in football. It might cause a domino effect of changes in other schools.
 

For years UST has had a below average football program. It is now an issue because the football program is strong. All other sports are about the same as they have been for years.

Caruso has rubbed lots of people the wrong way by his wins of huge margins....rightfully so. But to kick a whole program out of the conference because of football should not happen. The timing of the football success along with the facilities upgrade occurring at the same time has made some people question if they are a MIAC school. But this would of never been brought to attention if the football team did not go out and embarrass opponents (I would say themselves as well)
 

Not going to comment on this thread any more until something actually happens with a vote because it’s pointless.


Regardless if they get kicked out or stay, they aren’t going D2 because nobody at the university wants to. So people can discuss that all they want, but that’s not happening.
 





Panthadad2 said:
No matter the vote outcome, the MIAC membership is fractured, probably beyond repair, and I doubt the conference exists in in its current form a few years from now. This isn't a recent phenoma, it goes back to the early 2000s when UST originally considered moving up and out. If UST stays, then St. Olaf, Carleton, Augsburg and Hamline (and others? - Mac already switched football conferences) have reportedly threatened to exit. That would blow up the conference as it would lose its automatic bid in football. It might cause a domino effect of changes in other schools.
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St Olaf, Carleton, Augsburg, Hamline, MAC, and St Kate's in a new conf?

And if so, where does that leave Bethel, Gustavis, Condordia, and St Johns/St Bens?
 

Some guy said:
Not going to comment on this thread any more until something actually happens with a vote
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See ya on the 18th, when it's announced that MIAC presidents vote in favor of changing the league by-laws to allow them to vote to remove a member school.
 

GeezoBeezo said:
For years UST has had a below average football program. It is now an issue because the football program is strong. All other sports are about the same as they have been for years.

Caruso has rubbed lots of people the wrong way by his wins of huge margins....rightfully so. But to kick a whole program out of the conference because of football should not happen. The timing of the football success along with the facilities upgrade occurring at the same time has made some people question if they are a MIAC school. But this would of never been brought to attention if the football team did not go out and embarrass opponents (I would say themselves as well)
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OK. Well?

Would UST leadership be willing to fire Caruso, if that decision alone would allow it to stay in the MIAC?

Guessing that would be a hard no. So, there ya go ...
 

Gophers_4life said:
St Olaf, Carleton, Augsburg, Hamline, MAC, and St Kate's in a new conf?

And if so, where does that leave Bethel, Gustavis, Condordia, and St Johns/St Bens?
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In a hypothetical proposed realigned conference of stronger football members, I can't see Concordia voluntarily eager to travel 200+ miles every other week (in all sports) to play constant bridesmaid to both St. Thomas and St. Johns. Even when they come in 2nd place in the conference which has been quite often (usually tied with USJ or Bethel) they get left out of the NCAA playoffs with no "at large" bid while crappy UMAC schools get monkey stomped by 80 points in the opening round. That doesn't sit well with older alumni who were accustomed to deep playoff runs in D3 and NAIA national championships before that. Their options are limited though. Go back to NAIA and play other christian college schools in the GPAC in the I-29 corridor? Go NSIC to reignite the MSU Moorhead rivalry and be closer to other competition? The Cobbers are my biggest question mark.

Bethel is growing (doing great with their grad programs) and think they'll go with whoever the winner is in this scenario and keep competition close in the Twin Cities.

Gustavus? I don't know enough about them to even speculate. One would think they want to keep St. Olaf and Carleton as competitors while still keeping competition in the Twin Cities for their alumni population and potential student recruitment.
 
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Gophers_4life said:
OK. Well?

Would UST leadership be willing to fire Caruso, if that decision alone would allow it to stay in the MIAC?

Guessing that would be a hard no. So, there ya go ...
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No and they shouldn't. You are guessing correct.

I think if they boot them from MIAC based off a 5-10 year run in football would be irresponsible. We will see, I think it will turn out that the majority of the will keep them in the conference.
 

On D-II, wasn't part of Thelen's story is his scholarship at MSU was worth $500?
 

Ski U Mah Gopher said:
On D-II, wasn't part of Thelen's story is his scholarship at MSU was worth $500?
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Yeah, not surprising (link). D2 schools (and non-revenue sport D1) often take a limited number of scholarships and split them fractionally among a bunch of student athletes.
 

Panthadad2 said:
In a hypothetical proposed realigned conference of stronger football members, I can't see Concordia voluntarily eager to travel 200+ miles every other week (in all sports) to play constant bridesmaid to both St. Thomas and St. Johns. Even when they come in 2nd place in the conference which has been quite often (usually tied with USJ or Bethel) they get left out of the NCAA playoffs with no "at large" bid while crappy UMAC schools get monkey stomped by 80 points in the opening round. That doesn't sit well with older alumni who were accustomed to deep playoff runs in D3 and NAIA national championships before that. Their options are limited though. Go back to NAIA and play other christian college schools in the GPAC in the I-29 corridor? Go NSIC to reignite the MSU Moorhead rivalry and be closer to other competition? The Cobbers are my biggest question mark.

Bethel is growing (doing great with their grad programs) and think they'll go with whoever the winner is in this scenario and keep competition close in the Twin Cities.

Gustavus? I don't know enough about them to even speculate. One would think they want to keep St. Olaf and Carleton as competitors while still keeping competition in the Twin Cities for their alumni population and potential student recruitment.
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The question about Concordia - Moorhead is an interesting one. They're geographically isolated from most of the rest of the conference.

But the NSIC is REALLY spread out. Duluth to Wayne, NE is almost 500 miles. Concordia to St. Marys is 350. I don't know if CC has the money to go D2 either. It's a pretty small school of about 2100.

If UST leaves, would the MIAC look at recruiting another school? St. Scholastica has 2800 undergrads, which would be a good fit in terms of size and mission. What about UM-Morris, who dropped down to D3 after leaving the NSIC. They're public, but are much more like an MIAC school.

The UMAC is just a terrible, terrible conference across the board. Most people don't know it exists until their champion gets killed in the playoffs. The Scholastica team that lost 48-2 in the playoffs to St. Thomas was 10-0 in conference. Think about that gap.
 



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