Ranking Big Ten schools on recruiting appeal

[maroonedinCA]

Yes…..BUT the Vikes still sell out when they are 3-13 and the Twins still draw well during 3 straight 90+ loss seasons.

How well do the Gophers draw when things aren't good? They barely sell out when the product is good.

It's a Vikes and Twins town; thus, the "success brings an audience" stance isn't necessarily the only correlation for attendance and interest.

How well did the Twins draw in the mid-90s or even when they were good in 00s but were still in the dome. The Twins drew well because they opened a flashy new stadium and that luster is wearing off. Fan attendance is falling off the map. They're not the point you want to be making.

The Twins product got good for a few seasons around 2001/2002 unexpectedly. And guess what, nobody showed up until the playoffs. The Gophers have had one very good season and people haven't shown up yet because it takes time for people to buy in, even in this "Twins town".

You're picking and choosing random anomolies to try to make your point. This town is naturally fair weather. Nearly all NFL teams sell out regardless of performance, it's the nature of the beast that is the NFL. The Gophers haven't been good enough for long enough to draw the collective interest of the entire metro/state area yet. It takes time to build that trust and even then people may not show unless you build a fancy new ballpark. Just ask the Twins.

 

[BigGopherFan]

The reason is recruiting, but what's the cause? That's the big question. What causes this program to seemingly only be able to pull in 3 star athletes? What stops this program from maximizing the potential of its athletes (like Iowa and Wisconsin do)? Well, facilities has a lot to do with recruiting and poor coaching has a lot to do with not getting enough out of the athletes. But let's not think too hard about this. The University of Minnesota is wildly inconsistent (at best) in football and basketball because neither program has a history of winning. Good players want to go where they feel like they can win, regardless of facilities or metro area. There are some pretty crummy cities with excellent football or basketball programs. Too many to count actually. No one on here will ever admit it, but Iowa and Wisconsin are able to be relevant year-in and year-out because of excellent coaching. Neither one of those programs brings in 5 star recruits. In fact, neither beings in that many 4 stars. Sure, maybe they bring in higher-ranked talent than Minnesota, but not enough to make such a huge difference.

 

[OddStack]

I guess I fail to see your point. And for all intents and purposes, as I've said before, having been in Ann Arbor for several years of my previous life is basically a western suburb of Detroit. Unlike Minneapolis which is a big circle surrounding the major city greater Detroit can only expand in half a circle thus their suburbs stretch much, much further west than Minneapolis does in any direction.

Let me try to understand your point and I'm sorry as I'm not trying to be smug:

1). Pro sports teams draw regionally (like statewide?)
2). College fan bases are more local
3). College teams aren't located in the same place as pro teams therefore they get more support (the last part is implied based on where you were trying to go though you never stated it directly)

So let's take the example of Madison as it's furthest from it's Pro Team based on your mileage above:

1). Packers draw across all of Wisconsin (regionally)
2). Wisconsin only draws locally (Madison)
3). Madison isn't in Green Bay therefore Wisconsin gets a better draw of fans

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point or maybe you're trying to make a different point but based on what I'm interpretting it doesn't make sense. Unless you're somehow saying that because Madison is far away from Green Bay therefore people in Madison are more inclined to cheer on the Badgers at the expense of the Packers which isn't what you implied by the regional aspect of Pro Football fandom.

States with pro and college teams can cooexist from a support perspective.

1. No not statewide...regionally....Vikes and Twins draw and are broadcast in the 5 state area.
2. Yes, I believe college fan bases are more local than pro teams. How many people in the 5 state area care about the Gophers compared to those that care about the Vikes and Twins?

My point is about what this thread mentioned...appeal.
--When you go to Madison, Iowa City, Penn State, and Lincoln--these are places I've been or have lived--the lackluster professional team (if there is one) or fringe news of them is on page two. The college is the focus!

The Gophers aren't the focus of the media here; therefore, the residents aren't fans like they are in said areas. Kids want attention; the attention the Gophers get here is embarrassing!

That being said, I think we have factors that make us stand out and can be sold. I feel Kill and Co. are doing an admirable job of doing so.

 

[OddStack]

The Twins product got good for a few seasons around 2001/2002 unexpectedly. And guess what, nobody showed up until the playoffs. The Gophers have had one very good season and people haven't shown up yet because it takes time for people to buy in, even in this "Twins town".

You're picking and choosing random anomolies to try to make your point. This town is naturally fair weather. Nearly all NFL teams sell out regardless of performance, it's the nature of the beast that is the NFL. The Gophers haven't been good enough for long enough to draw the collective interest of the entire metro/state area yet. It takes time to build that trust and even then people may not show unless you build a fancy new ballpark. Just ask the Twins.

1. I agree we are SUPER FAIR WEATHER fans, but the Gophers barely even get a bandwagon...

2. The Twins attendance almost doubled in the year ('00 compared to '01) they unexpectedly became good. (Granted the attendance was still what I would call subpar BUT ppl noticed and more people showed up immediately.) I thought it took time....
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MIN/attend.shtml

2. Do you remember how many times the Vikes were blacked out or rescued in the last minute by some company in '96 & '97? Sellouts aren't a given, so I'm not cherry picking arguments.

Hell the Vikes would've had blackouts the first 3 games of 2012 if it weren't for a rule change:
http://www.twincities.com/vikings/ci_24015618/vikings-avoid-local-tv-blackouts-metrodome-will-have

 

[station19]

1. No not statewide...regionally....Vikes and Twins draw and are broadcast in the 5 state area.
2. Yes, I believe college fan bases are more local than pro teams. How many people in the 5 state area care about the Gophers compared to those that care about the Vikes and Twins?

My point is about what this thread mentioned...appeal.
--When you go to Madison, Iowa City, Penn State, and Lincoln--these are places I've been or have lived--the lackluster professional team (if there is one) or fringe news of them is on page two. The college is the focus!

The Gophers aren't the focus of the media here; therefore, the residents aren't fans like they are in said areas. Kids want attention; the attention the Gophers get here is embarrassing!

That being said, I think we have factors that make us stand out and can be sold. I feel Kill and Co. are doing an admirable job of doing so.

Agreed.

As you said, in those college towns the college team is the story...front page every day.....pretty much the only story.

When I grew up the Gophers WERE the team of the state......not just the metro area. There was no Vikings.

Even Iowa is divided Iowa and Iowa St.

We need investment, wins and coverage to get back to big time.

 

[OddStack]

Those are passionate fan bases! In 1991, I witnessed a grown man cry during a needling argument of whether Ronnie Harmon threw the '86 Rose Bowl! FIVE YEARS LATER! You can't make that up.

 

[stocker08]

Without the Vikings, the Gophers would be the only football team in town and they would thrive. Kind of like how the absence of Wal-Mart would make Target the only big-box store in town. Realistic?

Results drive performance. K-Mart didn't make excuses as they fell.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

Without the Vikings, the Gophers would be the only football team in town and they would thrive. Kind of like how the absence of Wal-Mart would make Target the only big-box store in town. Realistic?

Results drive performance. K-Mart didn't make excuses as they fell.

What are you talking about? If Wal-Mart went away Target and all other stores would grab more market share. They would do better.

You are an idiot.

 

[Gophers7NatTitlesBadgers0]

You are the idiot for believing that the pro sports teams are the ones separating the Gophers from success. If the Gophers were a good football team on a year to year basis, they would have no problem with support. Quit making excuses.

You seem to be one of the very few who doesn't understand what I wrote in my original post so yes, you are a complete idiot. Remember, this thread is about Minnesota's recruiting appeal. In the sports world, Vikings and Twins dominate this state in terms of fan attendance, media audience, merchandise, water cooler chatter, etc. To deny that is to admit you live in a fantasy land. Top recruits will go to schools that have the highest levels of support. (facilities, fan interest, media coverage, etc.) It's going to take a string of legitimate Rose Bowl runs and maybe an appearance to bring support up anywhere close to Vikings and Twins.

I believe the football program is in capable enough hands to accomplish that. When we do, Minnesota will become more attractive for better quality recruits. You can talk about the bad hires and about how crappy the Dome was and other factors, but frankly how we got to this point wasn't the issue. Where we need to be is and I thought I made that clear in other posts.

I doubt we will reach the level OSU, Michigan, or PSU are anytime soon. We will for sure be at the next level. Again, I'm not blaming the Vikings and Twins just a lack of all-around support for Gopher football. We are on the right track, but it will be some time to get where we need to be. I believe we will get there. I hope I've cleared things up.

 

[stocker08]

What are you talking about? If Wal-Mart went away Target and all other stores would grab more market share. They would do better.

You are an idiot.

Ummmm, that's the exact point that I was making. Do you have trouble with reading comprehension? Did you miss "Realistic" at the end? I'll give you a pass for selective reading.

 

[stocker08]

You seem to be one of the very few who doesn't understand what I wrote in my original post so yes, you are a complete idiot. Remember, this thread is about Minnesota's recruiting appeal. In the sports world, Vikings and Twins dominate this state in terms of fan attendance, media audience, merchandise, water cooler chatter, etc. To deny that is to admit you live in a fantasy land. Top recruits will go to schools that have the highest levels of support. (facilities, fan interest, media coverage, etc.) It's going to take a string of legitimate Rose Bowl runs and maybe an appearance to bring support up anywhere close to Vikings and Twins.

I believe the football program is in capable enough hands to accomplish that. When we do, Minnesota will become more attractive for better quality recruits. You can talk about the bad hires and about how crappy the Dome was and other factors, but frankly how we got to this point wasn't the issue. Where we need to be is and I thought I made that clear in other posts.

I doubt we will reach the level OSU, Michigan, or PSU are anytime soon. We will for sure be at the next level. Again, I'm not blaming the Vikings and Twins just a lack of all-around support for Gopher football. We are on the right track, but it will be some time to get where we need to be. I believe we will get there. I hope I've cleared things up.

So you call me an idiot, and then regurgitate exactly what I said. Success drives support.

Everyone back up! We have a brilliant mind at work here!

 

[Gophers7NatTitlesBadgers0]

So you call me an idiot, and then regurgitate exactly what I said. Success drives support.

Everyone back up! We have a brilliant mind at work here!

You are the one who who keeps harping about my post saying the Vikings and Twins are to blame for failures in the Gopher football program when all I said is their is a wide gap in support. How that gap resulted isn't really relevant but the low support is the main reason why recruits tend not to be attracted to come here. There were three blue chip caliber recruits from Minnesota this year and two bolted for the SEC. Thankfully, the best of the bunch stayed here. If you have a better explanation as to why we can't lock down our borders when it comes to top in-state recruits and get one or two top recruits elsewhere to come here at the moment, I would be open to hear your brilliant opinion. To top it off, you seem to think I'm all for the taxpayers giving the football program a blank check to spend however they want. That is completely false and where the "complete idiot" part of my opinion comes in. The only thing I can find agreement on is that success drives support, but it will continue to be a tough sell to recruits until support improves dramatically.

 

[stocker08]

You are the one who who keeps harping about my post saying the Vikings and Twins are to blame for failures in the Gopher football program when all I said is their is a wide gap in support. How that gap resulted isn't really relevant but the low support is the main reason why recruits tend not to be attracted to come here. There were three blue chip caliber recruits from Minnesota this year and two bolted for the SEC. Thankfully, the best of the bunch stayed here. If you have a better explanation as to why we can't lock down our borders when it comes to top in-state recruits and get one or two top recruits elsewhere to come here at the moment, I would be open to hear your brilliant opinion. To top it off, you seem to think I'm all for the taxpayers giving the football program a blank check to spend however they want. That is completely false and where the "complete idiot" part of my opinion comes in. The only thing I can find agreement on is that success drives support, but it will continue to be a tough sell to recruits until support improves dramatically.

I agreed that without the pro teams, the Gophers would be better off. I am saying that even with the pro sport teams, the Gophers can succeed. You initially stated that we couldn't have a top tier program with them here. YOUR words.

 

[josh087]

without the pro teams, the Gophers would be better off...even with the pro sport teams, the Gophers can succeed.

Hey, we finally agree.

 

[stocker08]

Hey, we finally agree.

Yeah.......I just don't think that the pro-teams inflict some invisible ceiling upon the Gophers.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

Ummmm, that's the exact point that I was making. Do you have trouble with reading comprehension? Did you miss "Realistic" at the end? I'll give you a pass for selective reading.

Your post is fairly incomprehensible to people not in your mind. It can be read many ways, especially when you posted a one word question.

So as it turns out you argued with everyone on here for no reason as you agree the Vikings are a detriment to the Gophers. It shouldn't have been that hard.

 

[Indi1006]

Did the Vikings fire Cal Stoll, the last coach to win 6 Big Ten games in a season, and the last to have three consecutive non-losing Big Ten seasons? Did the Vikings hire Joe Salem? Did the Vikings hire Gutekunst? Wacker? Brewster? Whatever impact the Vikings have had has been far less than the poor decisions the U has made. Saying "It's the Vikings!" is just throwing your hands up in the air - it's easier than actually addressing issues, because the Vikings aren't going to go away. If the problem is the Vikings, then just give up right now.

Exactly.

 

[Gophers7NatTitlesBadgers0]

I agreed that without the pro teams, the Gophers would be better off. I am saying that even with the pro sport teams, the Gophers can succeed. You initially stated that we couldn't have a top tier program with them here. YOUR words.

It's not that big of a mystery. In this town, Vikes and Twins rule the sports scene. Everyone else is far behind. Wild are probably third. I wish U of M athletics was bigger here, but this state has a ways to go in terms of support to get the football and basketball programs to the top tier level.

Where exactly did I say that the Gophers can't succeed with the Vikings and Twins here?

 

[diehard]

If the TC was a small town instead of a significant Metro Area that supports the Twinkies, Vikes, T-babies, Wild, Lynx, and maybe soccer (if they weren't adequately supported they would be gone) then certainly TCF would be packed to the roof (thank goodness there isn't one) with all the people who are not here.

It was the the U's fault/plan. They have fixed that. As long as the Regent's and the U President believe the Sleeping Giant must be Awakened, it will. It is just a matter of time before the TCF needs to be expanded. In time there will be a crazy good game day experience too. Crazy good. Get that student section filled and energised. May Coach Kill succeed in Minnesota for many years to come!

 

[Gophers7NatTitlesBadgers0]

If the TC was a small town instead of a significant Metro Area that supports the Twinkies, Vikes, T-babies, Wild, Lynx, and maybe soccer (if they weren't adequately supported they would be gone) then certainly TCF would be packed to the roof (thank goodness there isn't one) with all the people who are not here.

It was the the U's fault/plan. They have fixed that. As long as the Regent's and the U President believe the Sleeping Giant must be Awakened, it will. It is just a matter of time before the TCF needs to be expanded. In time there will be a crazy good game day experience too. Crazy good. Get that student section filled and energised. May Coach Kill succeed in Minnesota for many years to come!

Did anybody else hear a John Phillip Sousa tune playing in his/her head reading this post?

 

[station19]

Did anybody else hear a John Phillip Sousa tune playing in his/her head reading this post?

No, but I heard the voice of James Earl Jones.

 

[Gophers7NatTitlesBadgers0]

No, but I heard the voice of James Earl Jones.

Ray. People will come, Ray. They'll come to The Bank for reasons they can't even fathom. They'll turn up University Ave not knowing for sure why they're doing it. They'll arrive at the box office as innocent as children, longing for the past. "Of course, we won't mind if you look around", you'll say, "It's only $20 per person". They'll pass over the money without even thinking about it: for it is money they have and peace they lack. And they'll walk out to the bleachers; sit in shirtsleeves on a perfect afternoon. They'll find they have reserved seats somewhere along one of the sidelines, where they sat when they were children and cheered their heroes. And they'll watch the game and it'll be as if they dipped themselves in magic waters. The memories will be so thick they'll have to brush them away from their faces. People will come Ray.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

Ray. People will come, Ray. They'll come to The Bank for reasons they can't even fathom. They'll turn up University Ave not knowing for sure why they're doing it. They'll arrive at the box office as innocent as children, longing for the past. "Of course, we won't mind if you look around", you'll say, "It's only $20 per person". They'll pass over the money without even thinking about it: for it is money they have and peace they lack. And they'll walk out to the bleachers; sit in shirtsleeves on a perfect afternoon. They'll find they have reserved seats somewhere along one of the sidelines, where they sat when they were children and cheered their heroes. And they'll watch the game and it'll be as if they dipped themselves in magic waters. The memories will be so thick they'll have to brush them away from their faces. People will come Ray.

Ah yes, the days when we competed in big time games because we were able to recruit in the south, not because we were better at recruiting, but because they had no other option. More Bobby Bell please!

 

[station19]

What he said: Build it and they will come.

What he should have said: Build it and make Zigi pay for it.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

What he said: Build it and they will come.

What he should have said: Build it and make Zigi pay for it.

Bravo!

 

[stocker08]

Your post is fairly incomprehensible to people not in your mind. It can be read many ways, especially when you posted a one word question.

So as it turns out you argued with everyone on here for no reason as you agree the Vikings are a detriment to the Gophers. It shouldn't have been that hard.

You seem to be one of the few who has trouble with reading comprehension. Picking and choosing what you want to read while ignoring the rest is too easy. Regurgitating my exact point as some sort of counter makes it even more laughable.

Where exactly did I say that the Gophers can't succeed with the Vikings and Twins here?

Maybe I didn't read it as you intended......but post #3 sure looks like you are complaining that the pro-teams are keeping us from a top tier level. You jumped directly from "Vikes and Twins rule the sports scene" to "this state has a ways to go in terms of support to get the football and basketball programs to the top tier level." What kind of connection were you trying to make here?

 

[Gopherguy0723]

You seem to be one of the few who has trouble with reading comprehension. Picking and choosing what you want to read while ignoring the rest is too easy. Regurgitating my exact point as some sort of counter makes it even more laughable.



Maybe I didn't read it as you intended......but post #3 sure looks like you are complaining that the pro-teams are keeping us from a top tier level. You jumped directly from "Vikes and Twins rule the sports scene" to "this state has a ways to go in terms of support to get the football and basketball programs to the top tier level." What kind of connection were you trying to make here?

Here's the entire point.

The pro sports teams, the Vikings more than anything, hinder the Gophers' ability to win at a high level on a consistent basis. If the pro teams did not exist there would be many more people who follow the Gophers, especially if the Vikings were gone. More fans would wear Gophers gear, the stadium would be bigger to accommodate the bigger fan base, tv ratings would be better, the fans would be more fanatic. People would be more willing to donate money to the Gophers to improve their ability to win, and there would be much more scrutiny on the administration to hire winning coaches. Without the Vikings, we would have hired different coaches in the past, no doubt about it. The Metrodome may never have been built, and the entire sports landscape would have changed.

However, we are now stuck with the Vikings and others. Thus, it is much harder to garner attention. It is much harder to currently raise money to improve facilities and increase the football budget because people care more about the local pro sports teams. In other words, they spend money and enthusiasm on the pro teams, which would go to the Gophers if those teams did not exist. This is also why we can barely get 50,000 people into a stadium.

You are correct that winning would make the Gophers more relevant. But the pro teams make it harder to win. We have no local base to recruit from for football, so we need to get kids from other states. That means we need flashy things that cost money as well as a bigger recruiting budget. We don't have the money to do what is necessary on that end. Therefore, the Gophers are hamstrung and are at a big disadvantage in their quest to win.

It is not impossible for them to become relevant with the pro teams around, but it makes it much harder with them around.

 

[stocker08]

Your post is fairly incomprehensible to people not in your mind. It can be read many ways, especially when you posted a one word question.

So as it turns out you argued with everyone on here for no reason as you agree the Vikings are a detriment to the Gophers. It shouldn't have been that hard.

Here's the entire point.

The pro sports teams, the Vikings more than anything, hinder the Gophers' ability to win at a high level on a consistent basis. If the pro teams did not exist there would be many more people who follow the Gophers, especially if the Vikings were gone. More fans would wear Gophers gear, the stadium would be bigger to accommodate the bigger fan base, tv ratings would be better, the fans would be more fanatic. People would be more willing to donate money to the Gophers to improve their ability to win, and there would be much more scrutiny on the administration to hire winning coaches. Without the Vikings, we would have hired different coaches in the past, no doubt about it. The Metrodome may never have been built, and the entire sports landscape would have changed.

However, we are now stuck with the Vikings and others. Thus, it is much harder to garner attention. It is much harder to currently raise money to improve facilities and increase the football budget because people care more about the local pro sports teams. In other words, they spend money and enthusiasm on the pro teams, which would go to the Gophers if those teams did not exist. This is also why we can barely get 50,000 people into a stadium.

You are correct that winning would make the Gophers more relevant. But the pro teams make it harder to win. We have no local base to recruit from for football, so we need to get kids from other states. That means we need flashy things that cost money as well as a bigger recruiting budget. We don't have the money to do what is necessary on that end. Therefore, the Gophers are hamstrung and are at a big disadvantage in their quest to win.

It is not impossible for them to become relevant with the pro teams around, but it makes it much harder with them around.

Fair enough. I agree that the Gophers would be better off without the Vikes. I don't quite agree that the Gophers cannot win on a consistent basis with them here. The metro area is large enough to support them both.

 

[Killjoy]

Did anybody else hear a John Phillip Sousa tune playing in his/her head reading this post?

I wish I had. All I heard was "It's all about Big Ten Wins!" That has to be the worst ear worm ever!

 

[Indi1006]

Here's the entire point.

The pro sports teams, the Vikings more than anything, hinder the Gophers' ability to win at a high level on a consistent basis. If the pro teams did not exist there would be many more people who follow the Gophers, especially if the Vikings were gone. More fans would wear Gophers gear, the stadium would be bigger to accommodate the bigger fan base, tv ratings would be better, the fans would be more fanatic. People would be more willing to donate money to the Gophers to improve their ability to win, and there would be much more scrutiny on the administration to hire winning coaches. Without the Vikings, we would have hired different coaches in the past, no doubt about it. The Metrodome may never have been built, and the entire sports landscape would have changed.

However, we are now stuck with the Vikings and others. Thus, it is much harder to garner attention. It is much harder to currently raise money to improve facilities and increase the football budget because people care more about the local pro sports teams. In other words, they spend money and enthusiasm on the pro teams, which would go to the Gophers if those teams did not exist. This is also why we can barely get 50,000 people into a stadium.

You are correct that winning would make the Gophers more relevant. But the pro teams make it harder to win. We have no local base to recruit from for football, so we need to get kids from other states. That means we need flashy things that cost money as well as a bigger recruiting budget. We don't have the money to do what is necessary on that end. Therefore, the Gophers are hamstrung and are at a big disadvantage in their quest to win.

It is not impossible for them to become relevant with the pro teams around, but it makes it much harder with them around.

Giel, Salem, Gutey, Wacker, Maturi, Brewster......Some real barn burners. A competent, but lazy, coach in Mason had us respectable for awhile and now we have Kill who seems to have the total package has us on the right track to compete which will then fill the stadium.