Ranking Big Ten schools on recruiting appeal

[stocker08]

This discussion surfaced on another thread a month or two ago regarding the Vikings stadium, a new soccer-only stadium, etc.

The article is here: http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-some-us-cities-may-have-too-many-pro-sports-teams-2013-11

It counts television markets, so it's referring to the entire Twin Cities metropolitan area. We should have 2.8 professional sports franchises among the four major sports and we have four. That, of course, does not include Gopher football, men's basketball and men's ice hockey all of which, on some level, compete for fan dollars with their professional counterparts.

Tempe is in the Phoenix metro: Arizona State
Miami
Boulder is in the Denver metro: University of Colorado

Not to mention that everyone of those states have more than one D1 football program.

 

[mplsbadger]

Do the Wild hurt Gopher Hockey? Answer that before you consider whether football is a zero sum game in this town. Vikes will always be king but that doesn't mean the Gophers can't be good too.

 

[diehard]

When Kill gets the borders closed and a bunch of local kids are winning big the Vikings will have no monopoly on the football enthusiasm.

Double J is the beginning of that. A skill player with very high potential. We'll see how that plays out over the next couple of years. He could have a serious effect on in state recruiting.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

Do the Wild hurt Gopher Hockey? Answer that before you consider whether football is a zero sum game in this town. Vikes will always be king but that doesn't mean the Gophers can't be good too.

False premise. The Gophers' hockey team is a powerhouse. People pay for winners.

It is also the only sport that can sustain winning without scouring the nation for players. Essentially, the team will always be dominant and a winner with a competent coach.

 

[Malcolm Moos]

19, you are a dedicated Gopher Fan who loves the Dragons. Bipolar by any chance???

Dr. Don is a dedicated Gopher Fan who loves the Bison.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Tempe is in the Phoenix metro: Arizona State
Miami
Boulder is in the Denver metro: University of Colorado

Not to mention that everyone of those states have more than one D1 football program.

As I said before, I think Denver is the only real fair comparison. The Phoenix metro has almost a million more people than the TC. Miami has over two million more.

 

[stocker08]

As I said before, I think Denver is the only real fair comparison. The Phoenix metro has almost a million more people than the TC. Miami has over two million more.

Ah, right. I was using the link as my reference for similar metro areas. I agree that population is a much better comparison than tv sets......or whatever they used.

 

[cncmin]

As I said before, I think Denver is the only real fair comparison. The Phoenix metro has almost a million more people than the TC. Miami has over two million more.

The Business Insider article has a nice look at a statistic, but it's only one statistic of many (and they admit that in the opening line to the article). Wealth of the city matters, so does location. Certainly Mpls wouldn't have 4 pro sports teams if it were located much nearer to other metro areas, or if it were a poorer area. But neither is the case. Note that the teams are not named "Minneapolis" for a reason - the 4 pro sports teams attempt to market to the area as a whole; that the stadiums are located near the most densely populated locale in that large area only makes sense.

Pittsburgh is another good example. It wouldn't be able to support 3 sports teams, but for also having large support by the western half of PA. In this case they're named "Pittsburgh", but undoubtedly represent a very large area containing lots of people, with ample support from fans.

 

[Ski U Mah Gopher]

As I said before, I think Denver is the only real fair comparison. The Phoenix metro has almost a million more people than the TC. Miami has over two million more.

It is about 28 miles from Denver to Boulder, about the same distance from Minneapolis to Stillwater.

 

[josh087]

Pointing out challenges and making excuses are not the same.

Thank you.

I will never understand why so many people on this board who get so bent out of shape about when others point out the FACT that the Vikings' presence is a negative.

 

[josh087]

Do the Wild hurt Gopher Hockey?

Yes, the Wild being here absolutely has a negative impact on Gopher Hockey.

Just because the Gopher hockey program is good, doesn't mean that the pro sports impact on that program is none.

Think about how many more fans would follow Gopher Hockey closer if the Wild weren't here. It sucks to have to watch half of the games on FSN plus on channel 652 every weekend because the Wild trump the coverage on the regular channel.

The fact is that Gopher hockey can make up for a pro team in the same town, because with so much of the top-end high-school talent here in this state and close by, they are extremely fortunate to have the biggest recruiting advantage that possibly any team from any collegiate sport has, not just hockey.

Think about this - shouldn't the team with one of the best recruiting situations of any team from any collegiate sport have won more than two national championships in the last 35 years? This gets even more magnified when you consider that there are only about 50 teams in college hockey - much less than the other revenue sports.

To try to compare the Gopher Hockey situation with Gopher football is so ridiculous it should require no response

 

[stocker08]

It is about 28 miles from Denver to Boulder, about the same distance from Minneapolis to Stillwater.

What does that matter?

 

[stocker08]

Thank you.

I will never understand why so many people on this board who get so bent out of shape about when others point out the FACT that the Vikings' presence is a negative.

That isn't what gets people bent out of shape. The excuse that Gopher Football cannot compete for title because of the Vikings presence is what gets people bent out of shape. It's a lame excuse and nothing more.

 

[josh087]

The excuse that Gopher Football cannot compete for title because of the Vikings presence is what gets people bent out of shape.

Please cite one example where someone on this board has said we can't compete for a title only because of the Vikings.

 

[RodentRampage]

Did the Vikings fire Cal Stoll, the last coach to win 6 Big Ten games in a season, and the last to have three consecutive non-losing Big Ten seasons? Did the Vikings hire Joe Salem? Did the Vikings hire Gutekunst? Wacker? Brewster? Whatever impact the Vikings have had has been far less than the poor decisions the U has made. Saying "It's the Vikings!" is just throwing your hands up in the air - it's easier than actually addressing issues, because the Vikings aren't going to go away. If the problem is the Vikings, then just give up right now.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Yes, the Wild being here absolutely has a negative impact on Gopher Hockey.

Just because the Gopher hockey program is good, doesn't mean that the pro sports impact on that program is none.

Think about how many more fans would follow Gopher Hockey closer if the Wild weren't here. It sucks to have to watch half of the games on FSN plus on channel 652 every weekend because the Wild trump the coverage on the regular channel.

The fact is that Gopher hockey can make up for a pro team in the same town, because with so much of the top-end high-school talent here in this state and close by, they are extremely fortunate to have the biggest recruiting advantage that possibly any team from any collegiate sport has, not just hockey.

Think about this - shouldn't the team with one of the best recruiting situations of any team from any collegiate sport have won more than two national championships in the last 35 years? This gets even more magnified when you consider that there are only about 50 teams in college hockey - much less than the other revenue sports.

To try to compare the Gopher Hockey situation with Gopher football is so ridiculous it should require no response

The Gophers did win 2 national championships within 4 years of the Wild joining the NHL. Maybe the pro-hockey atmosphere is what pushed us over the hump.

On a more serious note, I don't agree with you that pro-college sports is a zero sum game. I realize you don't like the hockey comparison because you don't think its valid due to the relative positions of the two programs on the national map. However, ignoring overall success or lack thereof, the Gophers have successfully leveraged the presence of a pro-team. The Hockey Day Minnesota promotion combines Gopher hockey and the Wild and draws positive attention to both programs. I think with a little creativity (by people who know football better than I do), the Vikings and Gophers could embark on some joint initiatives to the benefit of both programs.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

Did the Vikings fire Cal Stoll, the last coach to win 6 Big Ten games in a season, and the last to have three consecutive non-losing Big Ten seasons? Did the Vikings hire Joe Salem? Did the Vikings hire Gutekunst? Wacker? Brewster? Whatever impact the Vikings have had has been far less than the poor decisions the U has made. Saying "It's the Vikings!" is just throwing your hands up in the air - it's easier than actually addressing issues, because the Vikings aren't going to go away. If the problem is the Vikings, then just give up right now.

Remove the Vikings from Minnesota. I guarantee Gophers football becomes either the biggest game in town or the second biggest game in town next to the Twins. I'd also guarantee that the facilities would get upgraded within five years and the stadium would expand within 10 years.

The Vikings are a problem for the Gophers. Bad hiring decisions are also a problem the Gophers have had.

 

[stocker08]

Please cite one example where someone on this board has said we can't compete for a title only because of the Vikings.

Refer back to the third post. We don't have enough support.....that's why we can't compete. It's an excuse. A lousy one.

 

[station19]

Did the Vikings fire Cal Stoll, the last coach to win 6 Big Ten games in a season, and the last to have three consecutive non-losing Big Ten seasons? Did the Vikings hire Joe Salem? Did the Vikings hire Gutekunst? Wacker? Brewster? Whatever impact the Vikings have had has been far less than the poor decisions the U has made. Saying "It's the Vikings!" is just throwing your hands up in the air - it's easier than actually addressing issues, because the Vikings aren't going to go away. If the problem is the Vikings, then just give up right now.

Actually I don't believe anyone on GH has ever said that. They have only replied to morons that say the Vikings have had no/none/zero effect on the Gophers.

 

[station19]

Refer back to the third post. We don't have enough support.....that's why we can't compete. It's an excuse. A lousy one.

Can't find it. Please point out which one.

 

[stocker08]

Can't find it. Please point out which one.

Third post in the thread. Not difficult to find.

 

[station19]

Third post in the thread. Not difficult to find.

Here's the third post in the thread. Where does it say Gophers can't compete because of the Vikings?

Great Plains Gopher Great Plains Gopher is offline
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Quote Originally Posted by Hates Monikers View Post
Hayden Fry called us a sleeping giant 30 years ago. Gotta wake up sometime, right?
Holtz said the same thing about Minnesota when he left Notre Dame. Wosre, Tim Cohane, of Look magazine, did a story on new Gopher coach, Wes Fesler, in 1951; the headline? "Can Fesler Rouse the Sleeping Giant of the North?"

Here is the third post from this page. Doesn't say that here either.

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Quote Originally Posted by station19 View Post
That is so naive and illogical it makes one spin their head.

Yes the U needs to look in the mirror, but to say the Vikings(and the other 3 pro sports) have had no effect on the Gophers is utterly ridiculous.

Without the pro sports there would be more disposable income and more corporate spending directed at Gopher sports. Along with that a demand for improved product. Are the Vikings the sole reason for Gopher Football decline? No, of course not, but they did contribute to it and they are an obstacle to overcome.

Pointing out challenges and making excuses are not the same.
That's the main area pro sports teams hurt. Fighting for advertising, suite rentals, corporate donations, etc.

I remember reading an article several years ago (maybe around the time Target Field opened up) that the TC was the most over saturated market for sports. Obviously it was based on the population and it looked at advertising money and suite rentals.

To say the Gophers would automatically be good if the pro sports teams didn't exist is not correct IMO. And I think to say there is no influence at all is wrong as well. It's probably somewhere in the middle. There's some influence, but not the main reason the Gopher programs have not been successful.

 

[stocker08]

It's not that big of a mystery. In this town, Vikes and Twins rule the sports scene. Everyone else is far behind. Wild are probably third. I wish U of M athletics was bigger here, but this state has a ways to go in terms of support to get the football and basketball programs to the top tier level.

Third post in the thread. Found on the first page.

 

[josh087]

Third post in the thread. Found on the first page.

I read the post. Nowhere does it say that the Vikings can't compete for Championships only because of the Vikings.

Keep trying.

The reality is the Vikings negatively impacts the Gophers. Cold weather negatively impacts the Gophers. The recruiting area negatively impacts the Gophers. Hiring decisions have negatively impacted the Gophers.

ALL of these factors (and others) must be acknowledged and addressed for the Gophers to have the best shot at winning titles as possible. The fact is, however, the Vikings are one of them.

For Christ's sake, athletic directors from around the country have organized conferences with the sole purpose being to discuss how their college institutions can better compete in a pro sports environment.

Let's just stop believing the myth that the Vikings have no impact on the Gophers.

Let's instead embrace the problem and find ways to work around it.

 

[stocker08]

I read the post. Nowhere does it say that the Vikings can't compete for Championships only because of the Vikings.

Keep trying.

The reality is the Vikings negatively impacts the Gophers. Cold weather negatively impacts the Gophers. The recruiting area negatively impacts the Gophers. Hiring decisions have negatively impacted the Gophers.

ALL of these factors (and others) must be acknowledged and addressed for the Gophers to have the best shot at winning titles as possible. The fact is, however, the Vikings are one of them.

For Christ's sake, athletic directors from around the country have organized conferences with the sole purpose being to discuss how their college institutions can better compete in a pro sports environment.

Let's just stop believing the myth that the Vikings have no impact on the Gophers.

Let's instead embrace the problem and find ways to work around it.

You conveniently ignored the post? He responded to someone wondering why we cannot hit the level of Wisconsin and Iowa, with typical pro sports blathering. Here's how he ended the post:

I wish U of M athletics was bigger here, but this state has a ways to go in terms of support to get the football and basketball programs to the top tier level.

Keep trying? I've already proven how this stupid argument got started once, twice, and now a third time.

 

[josh087]

You conveniently ignored the post? He responded to someone wondering why we cannot hit the level of Wisconsin and Iowa, with typical pro sports blathering. Here's how he ended the post:

I wish U of M athletics was bigger here, but this state has a ways to go in terms of support to get the football and basketball programs to the top tier level.

Keep trying? I've already proven how this stupid argument got started once, twice, and now a third time.

The post in question referenced support from the university that is needed to succeed, along with obstacles like the Twins, Wild, and Vikings. Am I missing where the post refers to the Vikings as the only reason why the Gophers can't compete at a Championship level?

Please enlighten me as to where I missed this in the post in question, or any post I have ever read on this site.

Otherwise, please admit you are jumping to conclusions on what you read to fit your own agenda.

Thank you.

 

[josh087]

You conveniently ignored the post? He responded to someone wondering why we cannot hit the level of Wisconsin and Iowa, with typical pro sports blathering. Here's how he ended the post:

I wish U of M athletics was bigger here, but this state has a ways to go in terms of support to get the football and basketball programs to the top tier level.

Keep trying? I've already proven how this stupid argument got started once, twice, and now a third time.

The post in question referenced support from the university that is needed to succeed, along with obstacles like the Twins, Wild, and Vikings. Am I missing where the post refers to the Vikings as the only reason why the Gophers can't compete at a Championship level?

Please enlighten me as to where I missed this in the post in question, or any post I have ever read on this site.

Otherwise, please admit you are jumping to conclusions on what you read to fit your own agenda.

Thank you.

 

[stocker08]

The post in question referenced support from the university that is needed to succeed, along with obstacles like the Twins, Wild, and Vikings. Am I missing where the post refers to the Vikings as the only reason why the Gophers can't compete at a Championship level?

Please enlighten me as to where I missed this in the post in question, or any post I have ever read on this site.

Otherwise, please admit you are jumping to conclusions on what you read to fit your own agenda.

Thank you.

So referring to the Vikings, Twins, Wild.....and then jumping directly to "we need more support from the state to play at a top tier level" doesn't back-up what I have said? Where did he mention that we are missing support from the university? He said support from the STATE.

Jumping to conclusions to fit my own agenda! HAHAHA! You are changing his words around to fit yours!

 

[Gopherguy0723]

So referring to the Vikings, Twins, Wild.....and then jumping directly to "we need more support from the state to play at a top tier level" doesn't back-up what I have said? Where did he mention that we are missing support from the university? He said support from the STATE.

Jumping to conclusions to fit my own agenda! HAHAHA! You are changing his words around to fit yours!

You either read it wrong, don't know how to read, or are intentionally misrepresenting things.

You quoted a post wrong in order to support your opinion. You said this, "we need more support from the state to play at a top tier level." The actual quote is this, "this state has a ways to go in terms of support to get the football and basketball programs to the top tier level."

Your quote defines support as resources from the state government. The actual quote defines support much more broadly and encompassing.

You either made a mistake (understandable), refuse to admit you're wrong when you know you're wrong to save face and pride (childish and morally questionable), or a troll (bad person).

 

[station19]

The post in question referenced support from the university that is needed to succeed, along with obstacles like the Twins, Wild, and Vikings. Am I missing where the post refers to the Vikings as the only reason why the Gophers can't compete at a Championship level?

Please enlighten me as to where I missed this in the post in question, or any post I have ever read on this site.

Otherwise, please admit you are jumping to conclusions on what you read to fit your own agenda.

Thank you.

You either read it wrong, don't know how to read, or are intentionally misrepresenting things.

You quoted a post wrong in order to support your opinion. You said this, "we need more support from the state to play at a top tier level." The actual quote is this, "this state has a ways to go in terms of support to get the football and basketball programs to the top tier level."

Your quote defines support as resources from the state government. The actual quote defines support much more broadly and encompassing.

You either made a mistake (understandable), refuse to admit you're wrong when you know you're wrong to save face and pride (childish and morally questionable), or a troll (bad person).

Stocker uses the other English language.