Ranking Big Ten schools on recruiting appeal

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Blaming the pro teams is a lousy excuse. By the time the college football season starts, who even cares about watching the Twins as they have already played 100-some games and sit in last place in the division. There are 162 games for gods sake. The NHL season starts around week 8 of the college football season. Do the t-wolves even overlap?

The Vikings excuse is tired as well. The Vikings play on sundays, the Gophers on saturday. No reason to pick and choose. People act like the problem is that there are not enough people in the metro area to provide support for this many teams. Bull****. There are PLENTY of people. It's not as though other metro areas with pro teams cannot support an NCAA football team.

Maybe we should blame the men's hockey team for their success? Too many athletic kids here in the state who prefer hockey? Too many parents pushing their kids into hockey?
 

Plain and simple - Winning Solves Everything. People will support a winner.
 

It takes time to turn a culture, a sports culture around. The U decided back in the 70s it wouldn't support football. Did not want football.

In the last few years a couple of Regents got their stuff together. They hired Kaler and decided that Gopher Sports would be resurrected. Then the Maturi departure and Woody coming in. Kill just could be a Top 5 CFB coach. It will change. We will win. The practice facility will be built. TCF will be expanded and be the hottest ticket in town. It is coming. Coming fairly soon. And not just football either!

It was the U, not the good people of Minnesota, although they should have never accepted it. BTW, the TC sports media will shape up too.
 

station19 said:
That is so naive and illogical it makes one spin their head.

Yes the U needs to look in the mirror, but to say the Vikings(and the other 3 pro sports) have had no effect on the Gophers is utterly ridiculous.

Without the pro sports there would be more disposable income and more corporate spending directed at Gopher sports. Along with that a demand for improved product. Are the Vikings the sole reason for Gopher Football decline? No, of course not, but they did contribute to it and they are an obstacle to overcome.

Pointing out challenges and making excuses are not the same.
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That's the main area pro sports teams hurt. Fighting for advertising, suite rentals, corporate donations, etc.

I remember reading an article several years ago (maybe around the time Target Field opened up) that the TC was the most over saturated market for sports. Obviously it was based on the population and it looked at advertising money and suite rentals.

To say the Gophers would automatically be good if the pro sports teams didn't exist is not correct IMO. And I think to say there is no influence at all is wrong as well. It's probably somewhere in the middle. There's some influence, but not the main reason the Gopher programs have not been successful.
 

GophersInIowa said:
That's the main area pro sports teams hurt. Fighting for advertising, suite rentals, corporate donations, etc.

I remember reading an article several years ago (maybe around the time Target Field opened up) that the TC was the most over saturated market for sports. Obviously it was based on the population and it looked at advertising money and suite rentals.

To say the Gophers would automatically be good if the pro sports teams didn't exist is not correct IMO. And I think to say there is no influence at all is wrong as well. It's probably somewhere in the middle. There's some influence, but not the main reason the Gopher programs have not been successful.
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I think that probably depends on whether that article considers just the Twin Cities, or the entire metropolitan area. Minneapolis is only the 47th largest city in terms of population. Add in St. Paul and the two would land around 18th. The entire metropolitan area ranks 15th however. There are quite a few metro areas right around us on that list that support an NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL team.......as well as at least one D1 football program.
 


stocker08 said:
I think that probably depends on whether that article considers just the Twin Cities, or the entire metropolitan area. Minneapolis is only the 47th largest city in terms of population. Add in St. Paul and the two would land around 18th. The entire metropolitan area ranks 15th however. There are quite a few metro areas right around us on that list that support an NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL team.......as well as at least one D1 football program.
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This discussion surfaced on another thread a month or two ago regarding the Vikings stadium, a new soccer-only stadium, etc.

The article is here: http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-some-us-cities-may-have-too-many-pro-sports-teams-2013-11

It counts television markets, so it's referring to the entire Twin Cities metropolitan area. We should have 2.8 professional sports franchises among the four major sports and we have four. That, of course, does not include Gopher football, men's basketball and men's ice hockey all of which, on some level, compete for fan dollars with their professional counterparts.
 

+1,000,000
DAMN RIGHT!

diehard said:
It takes time to turn a culture, a sports culture around. The U decided back in the 70s it wouldn't support football. Did not want football.

In the last few years a couple of Regents got their stuff together. They hired Kaler and decided that Gopher Sports would be resurrected. Then the Maturi departure and Woody coming in. Kill just could be a Top 5 CFB coach. It will change. We will win. The practice facility will be built. TCF will be expanded and be the hottest ticket in town. It is coming. Coming fairly soon. And not just football either!

It was the U, not the good people of Minnesota, although they should have never accepted it. BTW, the TC sports media will shape up too.
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GopherJack said:
I think a great barometer of fan support is look who's wearing Gopher Gear. It's either the old-timers that were alive during the glory years, Alums and season ticket holders (me), and current U of M students. You really don't see teenagers or young adults wearing the stuff.
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I do all the time.
 

stocker08 said:
I think that probably depends on whether that article considers just the Twin Cities, or the entire metropolitan area. Minneapolis is only the 47th largest city in terms of population. Add in St. Paul and the two would land around 18th. The entire metropolitan area ranks 15th however. There are quite a few metro areas right around us on that list that support an NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL team.......as well as at least one D1 football program.
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Yeah, I don't remember the specifics of the article. I'm assuming it included the metro area but not sure.

Looking at the list of metro areas, Denver is probably the only one that is close to the TC in sports and population.
 



GophersInIowa said:
Yeah, I don't remember the specifics of the article. I'm assuming it included the metro area but not sure.

Looking at the list of metro areas, Denver is probably the only one that is close to the TC in sports and population.
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Our one big advantage is corporate dollars. A legitimate equalizer against bigger markets.
 

Gopher Placenta said:
This discussion surfaced on another thread a month or two ago regarding the Vikings stadium, a new soccer-only stadium, etc.

The article is here: http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-some-us-cities-may-have-too-many-pro-sports-teams-2013-11

It counts television markets, so it's referring to the entire Twin Cities metropolitan area. We should have 2.8 professional sports franchises among the four major sports and we have four. That, of course, does not include Gopher football, men's basketball and men's ice hockey all of which, on some level, compete for fan dollars with their professional counterparts.
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Yep. This market is oversaturated.

The competition for entertainment dollars by the pro sports teams correlates to the Gophers' mediocrity because the Gophers don't get as many dollars.

For those of you who still don't get it, let me put it in other terms. This is a bandwagon sports town. The reason this is a bandwagon town is due to the abundance of pro and college teams and a population that is too small to amply support all those teams. The Gophers aren't winners because the public doesn't care if they're winners. The public doesn't care if they're winners because there are four men's pro teams in town and a women's pro team. They'll spend their money on a winning team instead of their money on a losing team. That's what happens when there is choice.

Let me put it a final way. There is more supply than demand. More demand would lead to more fervor from fans. That means there would be more pressure to use more resources (public and private) to facilitate winning and less patience when the winning doesn't occur (think delusional Nebraska fans' attitude regarding Pelini). To increase demand you need a bigger population than what currently exists, or you need to convince more people and businesses to become passionate about sports and spend on sports in lieu of other entertainment options like the theater.
 

Gopherguy0723 said:
Yep. This market is oversaturated.

The competition for entertainment dollars by the pro sports teams correlates to the Gophers' mediocrity because the Gophers don't get as many dollars.

For those of you who still don't get it, let me put it in other terms. This is a bandwagon sports town. The reason this is a bandwagon town is due to the abundance of pro and college teams and a population that is too small to amply support all those teams. The Gophers aren't winners because the public doesn't care if they're winners. The public doesn't care if they're winners because there are four men's pro teams in town and a women's pro team. They'll spend their money on a winning team instead of their money on a losing team. That's what happens when there is choice.

Let me put it a final way. There is more supply than demand. More demand would lead to more fervor from fans. That means there would be more pressure to use more resources (public and private) to facilitate winning and less patience when the winning doesn't occur (think delusional Nebraska fans' attitude regarding Pelini). To increase demand you need a bigger population than what currently exists, or you need to convince more people and businesses to become passionate about sports and spend on sports in lieu of other entertainment options like the theater.
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I don't think this is any more of a bandwagon town than any other sports team. I think "bandwagon" is an overused term. To some extent, every team has bandwagon fans. Teams will find it easier to sell when they are playing well than when they are playing poorly. Seattle is a real bandwagon town. I feel like the Twins are doing pretty well for fans given that they are coming off of a few terrible seasons. Gopher hockey kept a strong fanbase despite missing the tournament 3 years in a row. Wild fans stayed despite missing the playoffs for several seasons in a row. Even looking at the Timberwolves, I think they are doing pretty well considering they have the longest active streak of not making the playoffs. I don't imagine them doing much better with that kind of sustained poor play in any other market.
 

This may be a poor example but even USC has half empty stadiums during mediocre years. Their fifths or sixth game this year couldn't have been more than a third full. When I was at the MN/USC game at the Coliseum it was probably 80-90% full even though we were not a highly regarded opponent. (Very nice fans by the way - NOT like charger and raider fans).

Winning magically cures all these issues. Maybe not just one year, but several wining years will build a fan base little by little. The little kids grow up wanting to play for the gophs and it feeds on itself. We just haven't had enough sustained success.
 




The Twins have the most universal support in the state. Even those that don't follow sports or do so extremely casually generally get excited when the Twins do well.

The Vikings have the largest raw number of passionate fans, but they also have the most "anti-fans". They're easily the most polarizing team in town.

The rest are fairly niche, especially the Wild, Wolves, and Gopher Hockey. Gopher football support has the potential to grow dramatically with some success, but the vast majority of the state has grown accustomed to them sucking for the last fifty years and it will take a lot to change that opinion. Kill is the right man to change this perception though; everyone likes him.
 

Does anyone remember the Peach section? How about its front page during football and basketball season in the early 60s. TC media used to love the Gophers. Dedicated to the Gophers.

Every young football player's focus as on how to play for the Gophers. Even if you ended up playing for the Moorhead State Dragons or Concordia Cobbers, you still followed the Gophers like you were playing for them.

And if you became a Gopher you were a true hometown hero and set for life. The culture changed. It is beginning to recover. Donate to the practice facility let's get the momentum going.
 

BJN said:
The Twins have the most universal support in the state. Even those that don't follow sports or do so extremely casually generally get excited when the Twins do well.

The Vikings have the largest raw number of passionate fans, but they also have the most "anti-fans". They're easily the most polarizing team in town.

The rest are fairly niche, especially the Wild, Wolves, and Gopher Hockey. Gopher football support has the potential to grow dramatically with some success, but the vast majority of the state has grown accustomed to them sucking for the last fifty years and it will take a lot to change that opinion. Kill is the right man to change this perception though; everyone likes him.
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Tells me that the "vast majority of the state" sucks. Demand excellence instead of losing interest. BTW, we are on the right road.
 

diehard said:
Does anyone remember the Peach section? How about its front page during football and basketball season in the early 60s. TC media used to love the Gophers. Dedicated to the Gophers.

Every young football player's focus as on how to play for the Gophers. Even if you ended up playing for the Moorhead State Dragons or Concordia Cobbers, you still followed the Gophers like you were playing for them.

And if you became a Gopher you were a true hometown hero and set for life. The culture changed. It is beginning to recover. Donate to the practice facility let's get the momentum going.
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Go Dragons!
 



Gopherguy0723 said:
Yep. This market is oversaturated.

The competition for entertainment dollars by the pro sports teams correlates to the Gophers' mediocrity because the Gophers don't get as many dollars.

For those of you who still don't get it, let me put it in other terms. This is a bandwagon sports town. The reason this is a bandwagon town is due to the abundance of pro and college teams and a population that is too small to amply support all those teams. The Gophers aren't winners because the public doesn't care if they're winners. The public doesn't care if they're winners because there are four men's pro teams in town and a women's pro team. They'll spend their money on a winning team instead of their money on a losing team. That's what happens when there is choice.

Let me put it a final way. There is more supply than demand. More demand would lead to more fervor from fans. That means there would be more pressure to use more resources (public and private) to facilitate winning and less patience when the winning doesn't occur (think delusional Nebraska fans' attitude regarding Pelini). To increase demand you need a bigger population than what currently exists, or you need to convince more people and businesses to become passionate about sports and spend on sports in lieu of other entertainment options like the theater.
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Yes and no. What about Penn State men's basketball? 100,000 butts in the seats for football and can't get 1,000 people to show up for a Big Ten hoops game. Go around the SEC and you will see similar.
 

I would so love to see the U's athletic department start with an effective advertising campaign. You know, something common like "awakening the sleeping giant." Like Gulliver's travels and all the other B1G football team players trying to tie down a sleeping 100 foot Goldy that wakes up. Kill and Pitino could appear in it too. The Hockey coaches. Let's get the money rolling in for the practice facility.

Go Big Goldy! Mean Goldy!
 

Indi1006 said:
Snake oil salesman Holtz comes in and recruits a couple of good classes and hypes the product and the Dome is bursting at the seams and the Gophers are the talk of the town with a couple of just OK teams. As clear as the sky is today, at least for me, a quick look at the list of folks who have run things around here for the past four decades explains everything.
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This. The whole state was buzzing about Lou Holtz and Gopher football for those 2 years. The Gophers ruined it by keeping on Gutey, who lost all the momentum, even if it was brief. They picked up some momentum under Mason, but that idiot (I use that word a bit fondly in this case) kept openly shopping around for a bigger-name job, and that came back to bite him and the program big time since he could no longer recruit at the level he needed to get the Gophers to a higher level and keep them there. Plus those unbelievable wins-turned-losses kept torturing the fanbase and any casual fans who started riding the bandwagon.

Tubby Smith had the town buzzing with the bball program, but he was too lifeless to keep up recruiting, winning, and secure any momentum. Pitino now takes the reigns and I think he has the charisma to do big things there.

Back to football - Jerry Kill's biggest coaching stop in his career will be the U. I think the recruits know this, and I believe that will help. Whether Kill finally wakes up the "sleeping giant" or not, we'll find out. That'll start by keeping most of the big MN kids home, which he hasn't been able to do yet; though certainly that seems to be picking up a bit.
 

diehard said:
I would so love to see the U's athletic department start with an effective advertising campaign. You know, something common like "awakening the sleeping giant." Like Gulliver's travels and all the other B1G football team players trying to tie down a sleeping 100 foot Goldy that wakes up. Kill and Pitino could appear in it too. The Hockey coaches. Let's get the money rolling in for the practice facility.

Go Big Goldy! Mean Goldy!
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Great idea, Diehard! Love it.
 

Gopherguy0723 said:
Yep. This market is oversaturated.

The competition for entertainment dollars by the pro sports teams correlates to the Gophers' mediocrity because the Gophers don't get as many dollars.

For those of you who still don't get it, let me put it in other terms. This is a bandwagon sports town. The reason this is a bandwagon town is due to the abundance of pro and college teams and a population that is too small to amply support all those teams. The Gophers aren't winners because the public doesn't care if they're winners. The public doesn't care if they're winners because there are four men's pro teams in town and a women's pro team. They'll spend their money on a winning team instead of their money on a losing team. That's what happens when there is choice.

Let me put it a final way. There is more supply than demand. More demand would lead to more fervor from fans. That means there would be more pressure to use more resources (public and private) to facilitate winning and less patience when the winning doesn't occur (think delusional Nebraska fans' attitude regarding Pelini). To increase demand you need a bigger population than what currently exists, or you need to convince more people and businesses to become passionate about sports and spend on sports in lieu of other entertainment options like the theater.
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Along with virtually every other sports town, college and/or pro. This notion that MN fans are so much different is ridiculous to me. Why it may seem that way is because our sports teams (college and pro) have not been very good. Our four top pro teams haven't even played in a championship game/series in something like 85 combined seasons. That has to be the most of any fan base out there.

When you have a lot of teams that have sustained success over a long period, it appears that those fans are more "true" but once their team starts sucking, the fans will jump off. Camp Randall had a few seasons averaging below 45K per game before Alvarez. Just a few years ago, Carver Hawkeye Arena could barely get 4K in there for Big Ten games. As much as Seahawks fans will make you believe they've always been the greatest fans in the NFL, the Seahawks were an afterthought not that long ago.
 

BJN said:
The Twins have the most universal support in the state. Even those that don't follow sports or do so extremely casually generally get excited when the Twins do well.

The Vikings have the largest raw number of passionate fans, but they also have the most "anti-fans". They're easily the most polarizing team in town.

The rest are fairly niche, especially the Wild, Wolves, and Gopher Hockey. Gopher football support has the potential to grow dramatically with some success, but the vast majority of the state has grown accustomed to them sucking for the last fifty years and it will take a lot to change that opinion. Kill is the right man to change this perception though; everyone likes him.
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Fan list by points. 5 being the most and 1 being the least.

Most fans.

1. Vikings (5)
2. Twins (4)
3. Wild (3)
4. Timberwolves (2)

Biggest bandwagon fans

1. Vikings (5)
2. Twins (4.5)
3. Wild (4)
4. Timberwovles (4)

Most Passionate fans

1. Vikings (5)
2. Twins (4)
3. Wild (3)
4. Timberwolves (2.5)

Most Loyal fans

1. Vikings (5)
2. Wild (4.5)
3. Twins (4)
4. Timberwolves (3)

Total

1. Vikings (20)
2. Twins (16.5)
3. Wild (14.5)
4. Timberwolves (11.5)

There's no doubt Gopher football would be after the Twins and before the Wild.
 


It will be very interesting to see what happens with the PSL's at the new Vikes stadium. I think they are going to lose some season-ticket holder who don't want to pony up $5,000 or more just for the right to pay for your season ticket. This could be an opportunity for the Gopher to poach some of those fans. Maybe even an ad campaign stressing "afforable seats" at TCF.
 


short ornery norwegian said:
It will be very interesting to see what happens with the PSL's at the new Vikes stadium. I think they are going to lose some season-ticket holder who don't want to pony up $5,000 or more just for the right to pay for your season ticket. This could be an opportunity for the Gopher to poach some of those fans. Maybe even an ad campaign stressing "afforable seats" at TCF.
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It also seems as though Viking season ticket holders do not need to continue their seats the next two years to buy season tiks for the new stadium....just pony up the pbl money. Have to wonder if they'll need the extra seats at TCF
 

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