Leidner, Best Quarterback in Gopher Modern History?

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Asad Abdul-Khaliq - #3 all time in Big Ten for yards per play behind only Denard Robinson and Kirk Cousins.

Bryan Cupito - his 2005 season is top 50 of all QBs since 2004 according to ESPN.

Adam Weber - only Drew Brees and Curtis Painter have more career passing yards in Big Ten history.

These "terrible" quarterbacks may not have been perfect, but if Leidner is better than all of them that would be quite an accomplishment.
 

UpnorthGo4 said:
All season long I thought Leidner was a significantly better passer than Nelson but was not being given sufficient opportunity to prove it in the games. If he weren't for his problems hanging onto the football I believe they would have made the decision to go with Leidner earlier in the season before the team went on their four game Big 10 winning streak. I'm with 60's Guy. If Leidner doesn't get hurt I am convinced that he will be considered the best Gopher QB since most GopherHolers have been alive.
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Significantly Better? Come on man, lets be real here, that is a bit of an overstatement. People want to look at Mitch's great game against inferior San Jose as a benchmark of his success, but then dont want to look at Phils very impressive 4 game stretch against some quality competition.

I realize Mitch is our quarterback now, but lets not get irrational here. Teams are going to exploit Mitch's shortcomings this year much more, hope he learns to read the defense better.
 

victor04 said:
Significantly Better? Come on man, lets be real here, that is a bit of an overstatement. People want to look at Mitch's great game against inferior San Jose as a benchmark of his success, but then dont want to look at Phils very impressive 4 game stretch against some quality competition.

I realize Mitch is our quarterback now, but lets not get irrational here. Teams are going to exploit Mitch's shortcomings this year much more, hope he learns to read the defense better.
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60's Guy and I aren't being irrational, or even overly exuberant. It was obvious that Leidner has a stronger arm and is more accurate than Nelson. That adds up to him being a significantly better passer in my opinion. He has the strongest and most accurate arm of any QB since I first got season tickets in 2001. Since I never miss an opportunity to attend open Gopher practices I get a plenty of chances to see all of our QB's throw the football. Leidner has a huge upside. Like every other QB, his decision making in the pocket will tell the story about how far he goes in the game.

Of course teams are going to try to exploit Leidner's shortcomings. Every QB has them. It is up to Kill and his staff to minimize those opportunities. I believe that Leidner has fewer shortcomings than Nelson and it was inevitable that he would become the starter next season. Several weeks before the bowl game I predicted it would happen (along with a few other GopherHolers).

I think the next three years (and beyond) are going to be very exiting for Gopher football fans. I am convinced we are going love Leidner's competitive spirit, leadership qualities, and ultimately, his results on the field. Relax and enjoy the ride.
 

UpnorthGo4 said:
60's Guy and I aren't being irrational, or even overly exuberant. It was obvious that Leidner has a stronger arm and is more accurate than Nelson. That adds up to him being a significantly better passer in my opinion. He has the strongest and most accurate arm of any QB since I first got season tickets in 2001. Since I never miss an opportunity to attend open Gopher practices I get a plenty of chances to see all of our QB's throw the football. Leidner has a huge upside. Like every other QB, his decision making in the pocket will tell the story about how far he goes in the game.

Of course teams are going to try to exploit Leidner's shortcomings. Every QB has them. It is up to Kill and his staff to minimize those opportunities. I believe that Leidner has fewer shortcomings than Nelson and it was inevitable that he would become the starter next season. Several weeks before the bowl game I predicted it would happen (along with a few other GopherHolers).

I think the next three years (and beyond) are going to be very exiting for Gopher football fans. I am convinced we are going love Leidner's competitive spirit, leadership qualities, and ultimately, his results on the field. Relax and enjoy the ride.
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I'm on board for the ride.
 

UpnorthGo4 said:
60's Guy and I aren't being irrational, or even overly exuberant. It was obvious that Leidner has a stronger arm and is more accurate than Nelson. .
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You and your keen eye should have alerted Coach Kill...
 


mnsports1 said:
You and your keen eye should have alerted Coach Kill...
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Coach Kill knew it all along. He didn't need me to tell him. That is why Leidner played in every game last year, and why Nelson is now playing for Rutgers.
 

UpnorthGo4 said:
There is very little doubt that Kill and his staff were seriously thinking about making Leidner the starter before the bowl game against Syracuse. Probably the main reason they didn't was their loyalty to Nelson. They wanted to give him every opportunity to reassert his claim as the undisputed QB and leader of the team. But it was shocking how little time it took Kill to yank Nelson and put him on the bench for the rest of the game.

All season long I thought Leidner was a significantly better passer than Nelson but was not being given sufficient opportunity to prove it in the games. If he weren't for his problems hanging onto the football I believe they would have made the decision to go with Leidner earlier in the season before the team went on their four game Big 10 winning streak. I'm with 60's Guy. If Leidner doesn't get hurt I am convinced that he will be considered the best Gopher QB since most GopherHolers have been alive.

Almost everything is in place for Leidner to make it happen in the next three years. The coaching staff, offensive line, running backs, and tight ends are all there for him. All he needs now are wide receivers who know how to get open and catch the ball when it is thrown to them. We haven't seen that for quite awhile around here.
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Like others I take issue with the claim that Leidner was singinicantly better than Nelson in any way last year, especially passing. Both guys were subpar in the passing department (some of which is definitely pinned on a lack of playmakers at WR). Overall neither guy showed they were good enough to be counted on as the #1 guy which is why the coaches juggled them around as much as they did trying to find the best fit for the position.

There are 2 different discussions going on here, one is about Leidner being better than Nelson....he probably is....and another about Leidner being one of the best Gopher QB's of all time. It is not a massive mountain to climb but he has a ways to go before he gets discussed as being better than guys like Cupito, AAK, Weber, Foggie and others like that. Let him earn the job and keep it for a year and see how things look at the end of next season. If he takes the reigns and has a great season then maybe there is a place for this debate, until then he is a guy with a handful of starts under his belt who looked good at times and bad at others.

You keep saying he has the strongest most accurate arm we have seen around here in a long time....apparently that accuracy is only on display in practice with no pass rush because I would certainly not make a statement like that based on what he did on the field last year. I hope he has a great year and becomes one of the all time greats but he isn't anywhere close to being in that discussion right now.
 

UpnorthGo4 said:
There is very little doubt that Kill and his staff were seriously thinking about making Leidner the starter before the bowl game against Syracuse. Probably the main reason they didn't was their loyalty to Nelson. They wanted to give him every opportunity to reassert his claim as the undisputed QB and leader of the team. But it was shocking how little time it took Kill to yank Nelson and put him on the bench for the rest of the game.

All season long I thought Leidner was a significantly better passer than Nelson but was not being given sufficient opportunity to prove it in the games. If he weren't for his problems hanging onto the football I believe they would have made the decision to go with Leidner earlier in the season before the team went on their four game Big 10 winning streak. I'm with 60's Guy. If Leidner doesn't get hurt I am convinced that he will be considered the best Gopher QB since most GopherHolers have been alive.

Almost everything is in place for Leidner to make it happen in the next three years. The coaching staff, offensive line, running backs, and tight ends are all there for him. All he needs now are wide receivers who know how to get open and catch the ball when it is thrown to them. We haven't seen that for quite awhile around here.
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I appreciate your optimism.
 




Last year I think that the coaches knew what they were getting with both Leidner and Nelson. Nelson was much better then Leidner at reading defenses and being able do the appropriate check downs. Leidner had the better arm and execution when he made the correct reads. The problem was that he executed poorly when he made a misread. When Nelson was on a roll he looked very good, then he would go on a streak, where he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside. I believe that in the lead up to the bowl game Leidner exhibited an increased understanding and awareness in the film room making the coaches consider a QB change. Leidner was just a redshirt freshman so there's time for him to develop the field awareness to be a great quarterback but it's also something we will not see until the season starts.
 

For starters last year, I was a huge Nelson backer. I thought he had the goods to excel as a B1G QB. Knowing a little about the position, there is much more to it than passing. Probably the biggest is execution and leadership. Execution was fair, but the worst part was the fact that he lost the team. You could see their reactions as a pass sailed 20 yards over their heads or bounced twice before it got to the wide open receiver. If you look at our offensive penalties, the end of the year was not good for Phil Nelson. Yes, he had a few really great executed plays (both running and passing), but truth be told, he lacked the Moxi that a starting QB needs.
 

Rescooter said:
For starters last year, I was a huge Nelson backer. I thought he had the goods to excel as a B1G QB. Knowing a little about the position, there is much more to it than passing. Probably the biggest is execution and leadership. Execution was fair, but the worst part was the fact that he lost the team. You could see their reactions as a pass sailed 20 yards over their heads or bounced twice before it got to the wide open receiver. If you look at our offensive penalties, the end of the year was not good for Phil Nelson. Yes, he had a few really great executed plays (both running and passing), but truth be told, he lacked the Moxi that a starting QB needs.
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Note to the Gopher non-quarterbacks: hopefully this rescooter person is not accurate when he says that you players wouldn't play for one quarterback or the other. Personally, I think this rescooter person is totally wrong about that. Because you players won four in a row in Conference Play with Nelson quarterbacking you and then you LOST the last 3 games under the direction of both quarterbacks. Personally, I'd have to say that this rescooter person is totally wrong and that you non-quarterback players were playing for your coaches and ALL the quarterbacks. If NOT, I'd have to say that it was a matter of the coaches losing the players...you can't put that on a 2nd year quarterback. Coaches Coach. Coaches have ALL the power. The players play for the coaches...NOT the quarterback. IF it worked that way, it ALL goes on the Coaches collective heads for losing their players.

Rescooter person: I really think you have it all wrong.

I'm pulling for ALL the quarterbacks...ALL the players...and ALL the Coaches on my Golden Gopher Football Team ALL of the time!
 

This thread, the most delusional in modern Gopher history?
 




nsmike said:
Last year I think that the coaches knew what they were getting with both Leidner and Nelson. Nelson was much better then Leidner at reading defenses and being able do the appropriate check downs. Leidner had the better arm and execution when he made the correct reads. The problem was that he executed poorly when he made a misread. When Nelson was on a roll he looked very good, then he would go on a streak, where he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside. I believe that in the lead up to the bowl game Leidner exhibited an increased understanding and awareness in the film room making the coaches consider a QB change. Leidner was just a redshirt freshman so there's time for him to develop the field awareness to be a great quarterback but it's also something we will not see until the season starts.
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MV had a nice comment on this topic at TDG in the comments section a while back that I think is about as close to the turth as we'll ever know. Essentially he said that Nelson was brought in to run the spread-option out of the shotgun where his skills really shine and that the team moved away from that offense into a play-action offense where he was largely under center & that Leidner's skill set was better suited to that offense. He also said he believed there was disagreement inside the coaching staff who the better option was, that he believed one of the shot callers was a Leidner guy and that Nelson realized he was the odd man out so he decided to transfer.
 

Costa Rican Gopher said:
MV had a nice comment on this topic at TDG in the comments section a while back that I think is about as close to the turth as we'll ever know. Essentially he said that Nelson was brought in to run the spread-option out of the shotgun where his skills really shine and that the team moved away from that offense into a play-action offense where he was largely under center & that Leidner's skill set was better suited to that offense. He also said he believed there was disagreement inside the coaching staff who the better option was, that he believed one of the shot callers was a Leidner guy and that Nelson realized he was the odd man out so he decided to transfer.
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I wouldn't disagree with that take at all. I always have been a firm believer that especially in college football, even more than high school and professional football that the coach/coaches hold ALL the power. They have more options than high school coaches re: who they will play at various positions (especially quarterback) and in professional football, a number of coaches have NO option but to go with the superstar quarterback who earns much more money than the coach. In other words, in college football, some players can get caught in the battles and tugs of war that go on within the coaching staff re: who plays and who does not play. Just who are the "shot callers" on the Gopher's staff? Kill, of course. It would appear that the defensive coordinator would come next. How many "shot callers" are on the Kill staff? Does Kill call ALL the shots ALL the time? Or, is there a pecking-order of power within that staff that has been together for so very long. If MV's thesis is correct (and I'd say the odds are pretty good) just which shot caller ended up on top by the end of the 2013 season? IF that shot caller had it right, things will go well as long as Leidner continues to progress AND stays healthy and wins Conference football games. IF the shot caller had it wrong, eventually it will come back to haunt that shot caller. Only time will tell. We will have to watch this play out. No matter what: the coaching staff owes that four game conference winning streak for their LARGE pay raises they recently received mid-contract. And, it is obvious: FOUR Conference wins becomes the new minimum standard for Coach Kill and his staff as they begin their FOURTH Season in charge.
 

Costa Rican Gopher said:
MV had a nice comment on this topic at TDG in the comments section a while back that I think is about as close to the turth as we'll ever know. Essentially he said that Nelson was brought in to run the spread-option out of the shotgun where his skills really shine and that the team moved away from that offense into a play-action offense where he was largely under center & that Leidner's skill set was better suited to that offense. He also said he believed there was disagreement inside the coaching staff who the better option was, that he believed one of the shot callers was a Leidner guy and that Nelson realized he was the odd man out so he decided to transfer.
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Yes. This was spot on and I had posted the same comment in the Nelson thread as well about MV on TDG. That is pretty much a good estimate of what was going on and what had probably transpired.

imthewalrus said:
Just who are the "shot callers" on the Gopher's staff? Kill, of course. It would appear that the defensive coordinator would come next. How many "shot callers" are on the Kill staff? Does Kill call ALL the shots ALL the time? Or, is there a pecking-order of power within that staff that has been together for so very long. If MV's thesis is correct (and I'd say the odds are pretty good) just which shot caller ended up on top by the end of the 2013 season? IF that shot caller had it right, things will go well as long as Leidner continues to progress AND stays healthy and wins Conference football games. IF the shot caller had it wrong, eventually it will come back to haunt that shot caller. Only time will tell. We will have to watch this play out.
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MV had essentially hinted to half the staff being in Nelson's corner with the other half, and most importantly, Limegrover (as much as he is bemoaned here), leaning towards Leidner's skill set. He said that with the way the offense is geared, currently, and how the end of the season had shaken out, played a large part in Nelson's decision to transfer.
 

e.bigelow said:
Yes. This was spot on and I had posted the same comment in the Nelson thread as well about MV on TDG. That is pretty much a good estimate of what was going on and what had probably transpired.



MV had essentially hinted to half the staff being in Nelson's corner with the other half, and most importantly, Limegrover (as much as he is bemoaned here), leaning towards Leidner's skill set. He said that with the way the offense is geared, currently, and how the end of the season had shaken out, played a large part in Nelson's decision to transfer.
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Credit where it's due. I believe it was you who pointed me to the post in question. I know it was someone here and I couldn't remember who?

MV spoke as if he knew there was rift within the coaching staff & I recall him saying his hunch (he stressed he had no conclusive evidence to which coach/es) was that Coach Z was the Leidner guy & that once Nelson realized the QB Coach was pushing for Leidner he knew it was over. After listening to Limegrover speak recently I'm thinking it may have been the other way around where Coach Z wanted Nelson & Limey wanted Leidner?

Either way I don't have a problem with Leidner as the starter, although I thought Nelson was marginally better. My big issue has always been that Coach Kill uses 2 QB's. That's what he does. So, now we go from having two experienced QB's in Nelson/Leidner or Leidner/Nelson, either of which I'm ok with to having Leidner & a completely untested back up who's one snap away from being our 6th starting QB in four years. Since it's highly likely that Leidner will get injured, that means there's a good shot that we'll be playing meaningful games with Streveler/Rhoda or Streveler/McKinzy and to me that's a big step backwards at a time when we need to win right now.
 

The Coach and his staff need to develop depth at the quarterback spot without pushing their "depth" out the door each season as they did with Max and Philip. Eventually, these coaches will have to face the music IF their one experienced qb is forced through injury or ineffectiveness to ride the pines for a while during the Conference Schedule and they no longer have an experienced second option.

Coach Kill can tout the fact that his system calls for two quarterbacks...but...at this level, he and his staff need to learn the salesmanship, the diplomacy and charisma needed to develop AND keep two experienced quarterbacks with several years of eligibility remaining committed to them. First Shortell...then Nelson have taken the staff's first 3 years of dual quarterback development right down the drain. They now have the least amount of experience at qb they have had during their stay at Minnesota. And then the mid-contract raise for the coaching staff. The coaches have benefited financially and Shortell and Nelson have transferred. I think Coach Kill and his long-term loyal staff need to learn that IF they want to advertise themselves as a "2 quarterback system" they are going to have to develop and stick with their starting quarterback and then work to get a kid who has already had a red-shirt year plus a red-shirt freshman year and a red-shirt sophomore year completed with little or no experience. Then, during the kid's LAST two years, get the kid a LOT of experience. That way, their second quarterback won't have the option of transferring out. Leidner doesn't have too much experience yet. They need to keep him in full games the entire season if he doesn't face injuries. They maybe have to do that for two years, and THEN they can start splitting his playing time to develop the 2nd quarterback in the system.
 

Qbs transferring is the growing trend. Someone posted an article with the very long list of transferrees.

Nelson quit. I don't think he was forced out the door or this coaching staff has a unique problem retaining players. We've had numerous transfers from other schools over the years. He has the physical tools and was given the opportunities. He would have been given opportunity to start next season.

For whatever reason, and we'll probably never really know, he decided not to stay and FIGHT for his spot.
 

FreakyDeke said:
Asad Abdul-Khaliq - #3 all time in Big Ten for yards per play behind only Denard Robinson and Kirk Cousins. Bryan Cupito - his 2005 season is top 50 of all QBs since 2004 according to ESPN. Adam Weber - only Drew Brees and Curtis Painter have more career passing yards in Big Ten history. These "terrible" quarterbacks may not have been perfect, but if Leidner is better than all of them that would be quite an accomplishment.
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Other than facts do you have anything going for your side of this argument?
 


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