Kill says he needs 4 recruiting classes to break Gophers' culture

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GoAUpher said:
"given up on Kill".
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I see a lot of Kill apologists.

I see a few straw men getting kicked around.

But I've got to be honest, I don't see a lot of posters who have given up on Kill yet--and that includes me.
 

AgonyTrain said:
I think the part giving you a headache is that big straw man you built. Never said anywhere he should work for free. I am guessing that when he was hired he didn't mention needing 5 years before getting this program on it's feet (first I heard of a period that long was the twitter that started this thread) to be competitive (not talking about winning 8 or 9 games here - just being competitive in games). Two or three years I can understand - five seems a much. Since Jerry wants less risk if being fired and more time to get this program competitive, I think his contract should reflect that. Lower performance measures and less risk generally equates to lower reward / compensation. The Indiana coach has basically then same contract, inherited a horrible program as well, and I haven't heard him asking for five years to field a competitive team (if I have missed something let me know). Is there a point at which you would say Jerry is asking for too much time? 6 years? 7?

In any event Kill needs the time to install his program but 5 years to field a competitive team seems a bit much to me. Since Alvarez and ferentz are referenced all the time, did either of them say it was going to take 5 years to be competitive before their first year even ended? Maybe I an too impatient or maybe Jerry got my hopes up, but it seems that every weeks on field debacle is followed by shriller excuses and ever longer timeframes until respectability. Sorry if that makes me a troll
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Competitive and respectability as terms are ambiguous. Your or my or anyone else's definition of competitive could mean losing to an athletically superior team by an internally defined score. Kill's definition of competitive could mean being set to go 5-3(+) in conference consistently. Don't lose sleep over this, just watch how it develops. Or, continue to clamor for instant results like many of the mouth breathers here. Either way, you'll set yourself up to look like a fool or a genius, and based on history, I see you're playing the odds. Me? I'll watch from the wings and see where this program is going after a few seasons with Kill before I ultimately decide.
 

Tx_Gopher said:
I see a lot of Kill apologists.

I see a few straw men getting kicked around.

But I've got to be honest, I don't see a lot of posters who have given up on Kill yet--and that includes me.
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If trying to get people to actually talk by using common sense and facts makes me an apologist then sure, I guess I am. I'd like for you to point out where I actually apologize for him but ok. Or maybe you aren't talking about me while quoting me. That's possible too.

There aren't a ton of folks completely giving up on him and that's not what I'm saying (your own straw seems bountiful). What I'm saying is also shaped by having to read nonsense elsewhere too (try this out if you don't believe me).
I'm officially done with Kill

He has done what Mason and Brewster could not do. It will make many of you if not all. This is my last post regarding football until he is fired along with Maturi. See you all in 2014 or 2015.

When does hockey and basketball start?

by DallasGopher on Oct 1, 2011 12:16 PM PDT
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So my bad for referencing Gopher fans outside the board.

I also see you skipped over the "crazy doom and gloom" part to only focus on "give up on Kill". On the board you've got plenty of people saying Kill is blaming only the kids (when he always says it is ultimately on the coaches and never singles out any one player), or that there is no way he'll win X number of games ever, etc.

I'm going to quote Gopher Nation from The Daily Gopher to sum up how I feel (bolding is mine):
The point is that nobody knows whether or not Jerry Kill is going to be successful and we should quit trying to ascertain the answer to this question when we are just six games into the process. Don't take pride in being the first one to say Kill will fail and do not cling to false hope that he is guaranteed to take us beyond what mediocre-Mason was able to do.
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I don't care if people think his comments are a bad idea. That's a valid opinion. I don't care if they have problems the gameplans or schemes. Those are valid opinions (and would lead to interesting discussions which is why its annoying that no one ever wants to talk about it). I have problems with people twisting his words around, assuming to understand what he means (especially when he is quoted explaining otherwise), or making big assumptions about future failure 6 games into his first season. That sort of stuff is beyond pointless and stupid.
 

frozengopher said:
Competitive and respectability as terms are ambiguous. Your or my or anyone else's definition of competitive could mean losing to an athletically superior team by an internally defined score. Kill's definition of competitive could mean being set to go 5-3(+) in conference consistently. Don't lose sleep over this, just watch how it develops. Or, continue to clamor for instant results like many of the mouth breathers here. Either way, you'll set yourself up to look like a fool or a genius, and based on history, I see you're playing the odds. Me? I'll watch from the wings and see where this program is going after a few seasons with Kill before I ultimately decide.
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I am not saying (and have never said) he should be fired before being given a fair chance turn the program around. Maybe I am misinterpreting his recent comments about the abysmal state of the program. If what he means is that this team will make gradual progress, win a couple more games each year, and be competitive in the losses, that is fine with me. My expectations for this year was 4 wins (three non-conference and purdue). Don't think that was a crazy expectation. Now people around here are making it seem like anyone who expected this team to play better than it has is delusional and a kill hater.

I think by any objective standard this team has underperformed this year (just my opinion) and I am not thrilled with the coaching to date. That said, I am not in favor of canning kill and think he needs at least 3 years. If being displeased with the teams play and kills coaching and thinking he should be on a tighter leash than five years makes me unrealistic or delusional then so be it
 

AgonyTrain said:
Maybe I am misinterpreting his recent comments about the abysmal state of the program. If what he means is that this team will make gradual progress, win a couple more games each year, and be competitive in the losses, that is fine with me. t
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Yes, that's what he is saying IMO.

Are people really hearing/reading his comments and thinking he's trying to make 1-11 or 2-10 ok for multiple seasons?
 


AgonyTrain said:
I am not saying (and have never said) he should be fired before being given a fair chance turn the program around. Maybe I am misinterpreting his recent comments about the abysmal state of the program. If what he means is that this team will make gradual progress, win a couple more games each year, and be competitive in the losses, that is fine with me. My expectations for this year was 4 wins (three non-conference and purdue). Don't think that was a crazy expectation. Now people around here are making it seem like anyone who expected this team to play better than it has is delusional and a kill hater.

I think by any objective standard this team has underperformed this year (just my opinion) and I am not thrilled with the coaching to date. That said, I am not in favor of canning kill and think he needs at least 3 years. If being displeased with the teams play and kills coaching and thinking he should be on a tighter leash than five years makes me unrealistic or delusional then so be it
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Like some others, I think you're just reading what you want to read. Most everyone is disappointed in our performance so far, including Kill. He's put blame on everyone, coaches and players. We are better than what we've played so far. No doubt about it. Kill and the coaching staff deserve some of the blame. People are defending Kill because some fans are acting like he should be fired already and doesn't know what he is doing. That's ridiculous.
 

RodentRampage said:
I admit I was hoping for more discipline out of the Gophers. But realistically, getting other people to be disciplined is tough. A coach can make players practice, can drag them to classes, but while the coach and stress and preach discipline, a coach can't make players be disciplined. With recruiting, a coach can evaluate how much self-discipline a potential recruit has, and new recruits aren't going to have bad habits that are hard to break.
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We can only hope. I don't think we can validate this theory just yet.
 

The administration might as well give Kill as long as he thinks he needs to turn this around. It's already a mess. Nobody wants this job right now. There's a reason that Kill is here. It's getting to the point where the only ones who would touch this job are guys with close ties to the U or Minnesota. And it ain't gonna be Tony Dungy.
 

What theory? It is impossible to force someone to be disciplined.
 



RodentRampage said:
What theory? It is impossible to force someone to be disciplined.
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I agree. It is impossible to force someone to be disciplined. But, it is possible to teach someone that there are alternative ways to behave and demonstrate why it it is better without force. And, with some good leadership, assist in changing that person if they are willing to make the exploration.
 

Oneoldgopher said:
I agree. It is impossible to force someone to be disciplined. But, it is possible to teach someone that there are alternative ways to behave and demonstrate why it it is better without force. And, with some good leadership, assist in changing that person if they are willing to make the exploration.
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Who says these players are willing?
 

paulser21 said:
I think every day we are learning more and more about this program that helps us realize why the football team is in shambles. Its unbelievable that there are 63 players that need to be babysat and have to be monitored to go to class. Its no wonder that this team is so undisciplined. How am I to believe that these players that can't make the commitment to go to class aren't also failing to make a full commitment to this football team. I'm not sure that the excuse of not going to class because I was in my dorm room studying the playbook applies too often. But I'm sure their hand/eye coordination via Madden 2012 on PS3 is amazing.
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the funny thing is that I have a lot of the players on twitter and ALL they talk about is "I'M SO GOOD AT MADDEN! I'M THE CHAMP! NOONE CAN BEAT ME!!"

they also talk about how they're all so good at NBA2k12. This is the answer to the question of what the players do instead of going to class. Some of them do go to class though, they say it on twitter lol. Gray and Bennett always say they're in class, especially duane
 

NoDakGopher said:
ALL they talk about is "I'M SO GOOD AT MADDEN! I'M THE CHAMP! NOONE CAN BEAT ME!!"
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Really? That's "ALL" they talk about. Who do you follow? I'd be interested in seeing that...you know...just to make sure.
 



Saying that it is "all" they talk about is a stretch. Sadly, however, it isn't that much of one.
 



zambam said:
Really? So someone can't just give up and go through the motions? I guess I learn something new everyday on here.
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Of course they could be going through the motions. But, what has that to do with the coaches not leading them to change? Can't wait for your answer.
 

Oneoldgopher said:
Of course they could be going through the motions. But, what has that to do with the coaches not leading them to change? Can't wait for your answer.
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What does that have to do with the coaches not leading them to change(which I assume you mean teaching them to be disciplined)? As we have already stated you can't force discipline, the person has to be willing to learn. If someone has given up and is going through the motions, I would say they aren't very willing.
 

NoDakGopher said:
the funny thing is that I have a lot of the players on twitter and ALL they talk about is "I'M SO GOOD AT MADDEN! I'M THE CHAMP! NOONE CAN BEAT ME!!"

they also talk about how they're all so good at NBA2k12. This is the answer to the question of what the players do instead of going to class. Some of them do go to class though, they say it on twitter lol. Gray and Bennett always say they're in class, especially duane
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So you are assuming players spend some free time playing video games that they must be skipping class to do so? Most college kids say the same things, it doesn't mean video games are why they don't go to class. I'm glad we have you following these kids twitter accounts so you can pass judgement on them.

Are we really at the point of critiquing college kids twitter accounts? How long before we start getting the low down on where they go to eat and what tv shows their watching, I'm waiting on pins and needles.
 

Just because a student might be going through the motions doesn't mean they are dead to development, it is just harder to undergo. Does that mean the teacher/coach should just give up on them? Most of the team has to be going through some sort of depression or anxiety and understanding is the first and best way to help them heal. Once they start to come out of it, they will listen and what they have already heard will start to sink in quickly. They are people. Not robots.
 

Oneoldgopher said:
They dress for football every practice and every game. That is enough.
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This is because if they don't suit up, they go home to wherever they came from because their scholarship will be axed, and there will be no dorm room for Madden or sweet college tail to chase. Some of these guys might be lazy or may have given up, but they aren't dumb.
 

Oneoldgopher said:
Just because a student might be going through the motions doesn't mean they are dead to development, it is just harder to undergo. Does that mean the teacher/coach should just give up on them? Most of the team has to be going through some sort of depression or anxiety and understanding is the first and best way to help them heal. Once they start to come out of it, they will listen and what they have already heard will start to sink in quickly. They are people. Not robots.
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Go try to tell this to an experienced social worker and watch them laugh you out of the room. Our problem athletes weren't taught correctly by their parents, peers, or whoever/whatever else was present in their childhood/adolescence, and going through the motions is going to be a trend for the rest of their lives, regardless of what opportunity is put before them. The type of person who reacts positively to adversity is the diamond in the rough.

We have made it too easy for failing individuals in our society to be propped up by doing as little work as possible. Kill won't allow this, and we are seeing the result. Get me some hard nosed football players who had to work for what they got growing up. Until then, buckle down.
 

Oneoldgopher said:
Does that mean the teacher/coach should just give up on them?
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Totally true. And Kill and his staff have given up on them how? This is noted where? Shown by what?
Oneoldgopher said:
They are people. Not robots.
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Something noted by Kill throughout this season already. So as I asked already, he and his staff are giving up on them in what way again?
 

GoAUpher said:
Totally true. And Kill and his staff have given up on them how? This is noted where? Shown by what?

Something noted by Kill throughout this season already. So as I asked already, he and his staff are giving up on them in what way again?
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The demonstration is simple: freshmen are playing ahead of sophomores, juniors and the limited amount of seniors that we have. I think we would have similar results with our slower upperclassmen who know the game better than the newbies. So, instead of risking the future with injuries this year, why give up on the upperclassmen? He isn't putting these fine young men into positions or situations where they can succeed and build off of success. He has put them into situations where it is likely they will fail, and fail again, until camp begins next spring. Now, we will have to undue the mental handicap of having been beat down as well as work on technique with the young guys. it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
 

Oneoldgopher said:
The demonstration is simple: freshmen are playing ahead of sophomores, juniors and the limited amount of seniors that we have. I think we would have similar results with our slower upperclassmen who know the game better than the newbies. So, instead of risking the future with injuries this year, why give up on the upperclassmen? He isn't putting these fine young men into positions or situations where they can succeed and build off of success. He has put them into situations where it is likely they will fail, and fail again, until camp begins next spring. Now, we will have to undue the mental handicap of having been beat down as well as work on technique with the young guys. it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
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Or it means that even though he hasn't given up on the upper classmen they haven't shown him enough to warrant playing them over young guys who need experience and are showing no quit, more intensity etc.

As for his approach, it has worked before. And the young guys certainly don't sound like a defeated group when they are interviewed.
 

Oneoldgopher said:
The demonstration is simple: freshmen are playing ahead of sophomores, juniors and the limited amount of seniors that we have. I think we would have similar results with our slower upperclassmen who know the game better than the newbies. So, instead of risking the future with injuries this year, why give up on the upperclassmen? He isn't putting these fine young men into positions or situations where they can succeed and build off of success. He has put them into situations where it is likely they will fail, and fail again, until camp begins next spring. Now, we will have to undue the mental handicap of having been beat down as well as work on technique with the young guys. it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
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The young guys haven't been through 1/4 of the turmoil the older guys have been, and they are looking forward to 4 years of stability in the same systems, with the same coaches. The beat downs are easily put into perspective for a younger guy than an older guy who's been through much more over and over again.
Kill's philosophies on playing time seem to lend themselves to added depth and experience throughout the depth chart vs Brewster's which focused more on win now deal with lack of experience later. case in point our 2010 defense where we started 7 new starters up front, played infinite secondary combinations, and had a total lack of cohesion until very late in the season. These young guys will absolutely not be as green as that crew in 3 years, and there are enough tough minded youngsters "showing up" to believe we'll have some team leaders in 2013 with guts and grit.
 

BleedGopher said:
per these tweets from Joe Schmit:

"Jerry Kill #Gophers spoke to record crowd at Dunkers. Broke old record held by Walter Cronkite. #andthatsthewayitis"

"Kill said he needs 4recruiting classes to change the Gophers culture and last years did not count."

"Kill also said he has 63 players they have to check on daily to make sure they are going to class. That number should be 15."

"More Kill:We have a soft culture.Tough times are for tough people and I am am a tough person."

"Kill says he told new U Prez I need your help. He said Prez is all in and understands the programs issues."

Go Gophers!!
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Class of 2015 is the pivotal class!
 


I'd say that there has been a culture change. Maybe it hasn't been as dramatic as some of us hoped for, but most of us never really see the underbelly of the beast either. I hear of a lot less players in trouble and Kill let Nelson walk at the right time. The program appears to be cleaner and we are more successful on the field. That sounds like culture change to me.
 

Unquestionably, the 2014 version is a far cry from the 2011 one. The Gophers are becoming one of the most feared teams to play against.

Jerry Kill's team hallmark is they'll out work anyone.
 

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