Improvement under Kill

Donate To GopherHole
imthewalrus said:
Let's be specific here: Conference wins and losses will allow us to judge Big Ten coaches records against Big Ten Competition. Not the cupcake non-conference teams that appear on the schedule. Only the conference games will give us some meaningful win and loss totals.
Click to expand...

I can get behind that. Yes.
 

Gold Vision said:
Kill needs to be judged against his B1G peers, not his failed predecessors. He flat out needs to win more recruiting battles for proven talent. Obviously recruiting to Minnesota is easier said than done, but it's disappointing to see Kill's best year followed by another bottom level B1G class.

Recruiting rankings are a biased crapshoot and there is no such thing as proven talent. If "proven" talent was so easy to Identify and these magical recruiting rankings were everything you think they are, RichRod and Hoke would have won big at Michigan, and the Zooker never would have been fired.

I do not care how great the SEC is, but Florida was awful last year and they pretty much pick from the elite rankings the players they want. Wisconsin, and especially Iowa never have very flashy recruiting rankings, yet they have beaten a lot of elite teams.

Recruiting rankings are about as useful as the pre-season top 25 polls, and are way down on the list of makes teams successful. Recruiting 4 star player is not they key, but recruiting your kind of players (and being right) is what counts. That part of recruiting is what is important, not what some self promoting blowass like Tom L. thinks.
Click to expand...
 

Gold Vision said:
Currently 11th out of 14 members in points per commit. Ahead of Iowa, Purdue and Rutgers. Not sure how the 20th percentile equates to middle of the road. Thankfully, there's still some time with this class to make up ground.

2014 9/14
2013 11/14
2012 14/14

After doing that research, I do like seeing we are trending up.
Click to expand...

Oh sorry, we need to raised up 1.17 "points" to be middle of the road...how about you break down the class and say who we shouldn't be offering? No one ever does that though, they just say we aren't getting good enough guys, but they won't stick their necks out and name the lowly recruits who we should be too good for.
 

This is honestly ridiculous at this point.

We have a poster claiming that it is borderline "ludicrous" to compare Brewster to Kill at this point. One coach was 6-18 through three B1G seasons while the other was 8-16 (though he didn't actually "coach" in four of those wins) and both had gone to (and lost) two minor bowls. Both coaches were starting basically an identical number of the previous head coaches players in year three.

We have another poster putting blame on Brewster (and no one else) for a rape that occurred a few months in to his tenure by players who were all recruited by the prior coach.

We have another poster claiming the Brewster era was the darkest of times, yet 2 of his 3 full seasons resulted in the "Mason average" of 3 B1G wins and a trip to a bowl nobody cares about. Even his final season at the helm, the team went on to win two B1G games, including a win over Iowa under interim coach Horton.

Costa Rica is right, Brewster inherited a program in terrible shape, as did Coach Kill. Coach Brewster didn't inherit a bowl team, he inherited a team that barely made a minor bowl and was losing a 3 year starter at QB, an elite TE in Matt Spaeth, and virtually everyone with talent on the defensive side of the ball. I'd agree with Costa Rica that Brewster inherited a program in worse shape, but that's just opinion, the important thing that should be acknowledged by everyone is that Brewster didn't inherit .500 B1G talent (or anything close to it) and neither did Coach Kill.

The interesting thing to me is that those who are defending Coach Brewster are not declaring him a great (or even average) BCS level head coach, just pointing out that he wasn't this disaster in comparison to other Gopher coaches in most of our lifetimes. As for the Jerry Kill supporters here, they are claiming he's some vast upgrade, but the results don't show it yet.

Two last things about the recruiting. It is at least notable that three best Offensive Lineman playing for the Gophers this year are all players who committed to Tim Brewster ( Josh Campion, Tommy Olson, Zac Epping). It is also true that players are busts if they don't contribute regardless of their star rating. Remember how much this staff talked up JUCO RB James Gillum? Jamel Harbison? Andre McDonald? The jury is very much out on whether or not Jerry Kill and company are putting together a roster that will move this program past the general range it has been in for nearly two decades now. If they can do that without recruiting at a high (according to recruiting services) level great.

Unlike a large number of bitter Mason fans who never gave Brewster a chance, I want Jerry Kill to succeed. It's not important to me who the coach of the team is as long as that coach is beating Wisconsin and Iowa regularly and occasionally competing for a conference title. I'll be a fan of whoever does that, with whatever method works for that coach.

I bet you could look up posts from 2008 where the vast majority of the board (including myself) were convinced we had a massive upgrade in Coach Brewster: we were recruiting at a much higher level, turning around an awful team in to an ~average team, and there was a general excitement about where we were headed. I hope we're not going to end up in the same place late in 2014 or sometime in 2015 that we were in 2010. I also hope the fan base hasn't all of a sudden re-developed a taste/appreciation for 3-5 B1G seasons that it had clearly lost during the Brewster tenure.
 

I do think the rankings matter, but they shouldn't be overvalued. On rare occasions coaches do come along that can win with lesser classes. I'm hoping Kill is on of them, if he is then the recruiting will improve along the way. It already did last class, and this class isn't even close to finished.
 


btowngopher said:
Oh sorry, we need to raised up 1.17 "points" to be middle of the road...how about you break down the class and say who we shouldn't be offering? No one ever does that though, they just say we aren't getting good enough guys, but they won't stick their necks out and name the lowly recruits who we should be too good for.
Click to expand...

Lots of time left. Hope to see continued improvement, and sincerely hope JK's the guy to do it.

You've gotta break into that upper half sometime to make a conference championship run.
 

Sparlimb said:
Rape happened on Brewster's watch, no one else's. Don't blame anyone else for that.
Click to expand...

Brewster is to blame for plenty of things that went wrong during his time here but he is not to blame for what went down in regards to the rape. The blame for that falls on the idiot players that were involved. There is not a damn thing Brew or any other coach could have done to stop what happened and I hate when people act like they could have.
 


Regarding CRG and his one acolyte:

Your posts might have passed muster back in 2006, and 2007, but reading your attempts to hold on to a sily position that was discredited in the eyes of even the most de hard Brewster Kool Aid drinker is classic material.

Mason's history and tendencies show the team would have won 5 to 7 games again in 2007 and everyone still would have been angry.

The rape case happened after Mason left, and he had some players coming in that switched after the firing. Mason had an offensive system that worked against even matchups and lesser teams , even with limited non-2003/2004 type talent and his team would have put up points against all the poor to middle range teams on the roster. The Defense was rarely good, so that would have been nothing new. Mason would have won many of the games Brewster lost in embarrassing fashion.

Everyone wanted to get rid of Mason in 2006 and were making comments about the 2006 team that are similar to Costa Rican Gopher's comments today about the prospects of the 2007 team winning under Mason, then they suddenly put up 63,31,34 and 41. Then the goalposts were shifted by Maturi and the guy holding his leash aftermath of the TT meltdown.

Sure wins in 2007 for Mason: Bowling Green, Miami OH, FIU,
Probable wins: Purdue, at Indiana
possible wins: NDSU, (2006 team played horribly and won, hapless Brewster only lost by 6), at NW, Illinois at home- Mason had their number
sure losses: at Kinnick, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Michigan

That is only four certain losses and Brewster managed to lose 11.

Sitting in the Metrodome in the fourth quarters of the 2007 Big Ten games with 3,000 fans left in the building was the low point for me, and Brewster made sure it turned out that way with the arrogant and short sighted decsions he made. It did not have to be that horrible.
 



Gold Vision said:
Kill needs to be judged against his B1G peers, not his failed predecessors. He flat out needs to win more recruiting battles for proven talent.

Obviously recruiting to Minnesota is easier said than done, but it's disappointing to see Kill's best year followed by another bottom level B1G class. All I'm looking for is measurable signs of improvement on the recruiting trail.
Click to expand...

LOL Some of you GopherHolers wouldn't have a clue as to how to turn this program around if you were given the job, but yet you still make demands on something you have so little understanding about. The good news is that Eric Kaler is in charge and and he sees things quite differently when it come to how Kill is doing. Thank god!
 

Killjoy said:
LOL Some of you GopherHolers wouldn't have a clue as to how to turn this program around if you were given the job, but yet you still make demands on something you have so little understanding about. The good news is that Eric Kaler is in charge and and he sees things quite differently when it come to how Kill is doing. Thank god!
Click to expand...

LOL. Thank god is right Killjoy. Thanks for the hearty laugh my simple friend.
 

With the progress we've made in this thread, I'm glad we can all agree we are this close to putting the Mase -> Brew -> Kill debate to rest.

We did it you guys!
 

Costa Rican Gopher said:
How many bowls the team had been to in the previous years is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is how the team was when Brew took it over. It was the worst Gopher roster I've ever seen & he also got a sex scandal to boot. I'm not arguing Brewster was better than Mason mind you. I'm simply pointing out the fact that Mason's glory days were behind him, he had basically quit recruiting & the roster was a mess. Brew inherited a handful of decent offensive players & no depth. Pretty much exactly what he left Kill with. On defense though, Brew had to replace 8 starters out of thin air, had no talent to plug the holes with & no time to recruit anyone that first year. Kill on the other hand inherited Shede, Kirksey, Jacobs, Rallis, Royston, Stoudermire, Tinsley & Vereen, all B1G quality players.
Click to expand...
I couldn't disagree more with the bolded sentence above. When kids are being recruited you don't think they look at the recent history of that program for an indication of what they'd be in for? Brewster had a lot to sell when he took over. A program that was consistently bowling and a new stadium on the way. That helps recruiting. To say it's "completely irrelevant" is silly.
 




beatles said:
Hate to break it to you but your opinion is no better than mine.
Click to expand...

It's not an opinion, though.

Brewster 15-30 (.333), 6-21 (.222), 2 bowl appearances
Wacker 16-39 (.291), 8-32 (.200), 0 bowl appearances

Wacker was worse by every conceivable measure. These are facts.

beatles said:
And 1983 is ONE season.
Click to expand...

Yes, the worst season in Gophers history. Tim Brewster had nothing to do with it, other than being an All-Big Ten selection and the captain of the Illinois team that went to the Rose Bowl and on the way there kicked the Gophers' asses up and down the Metrodome turf (being one of SIX teams to score more than 50 POINTS on the Gophers that season). The 2007 Gophers gave up 50 to exactly no one, and actually lost 6 games by a TD or less.

beatles said:
I said Brewster lead us to "arguably" the darkest years of Gopher football
Click to expand...

Again, it's not arguable. He didn't. He was not a good coach, but was not nearly as bad as many here want to portray him.

beatles said:
and his last year and Kill's first are 2 of the worst teams we've ever had.
Click to expand...

What? Are you on crack? Two 3-win teams are among the worst we've ever had? You claim to have been a Gopher fan for a long time, but you clearly don't know the team's history very well.

beatles said:
How can you say "not arguable" about a something that is completely subjective?
Click to expand...

It's not completely subjective. They keep scores and stats and everything.
 

dpodoll68 said:
It's not an opinion, though.

Brewster 15-30 (.333), 6-21 (.222), 2 bowl appearances
Wacker 16-39 (.291), 8-32 (.200), 0 bowl appearances

Wacker was worse by every conceivable measure. These are facts.



Yes, the worst season in Gophers history. Tim Brewster had nothing to do with it, other than being an All-Big Ten selection and the captain of the Illinois team that went to the Rose Bowl and on the way there kicked the Gophers' asses up and down the Metrodome turf (being one of SIX teams to score more than 50 POINTS on the Gophers that season). The 2007 Gophers gave up 50 to exactly no one, and actually lost 6 games by a TD or less.



Again, it's not arguable. He didn't. He was not a good coach, but was not nearly as bad as many here want to portray him.



What? Are you on crack? Two 3-win teams are among the worst we've ever had? You claim to have been a Gopher fan for a long time, but you clearly don't know the team's history very well.



It's not completely subjective. They keep scores and stats and everything.
Click to expand...
Nobody on this site is more disingenuous with their posts than you. Yes Brewster had a better record than Wacker but Wacker took over a crap program while Brewster took over a pretty respectable program at the time. This is not apples to apples and you know this yet you keep it out of your argument which is why I say you're disingenuous.

And yes, claiming Brewster was a better coach than Wacker is completely subjective. Do you know how pompus you sound when you claim that your opinion is fact? In you first sentence of your post you say, "It's not an opinion..." when comparing Brew and Wacker. I mean seriously how big is your ego? Do you just lurk on this board searching for posts you can pick apart and ridicule trying to make people look stupid? I find it bizarre and from now on please ignore my posts as I have zero interest in your "opinion" of my posts.
 


Gold Vision said:
LOL. Thank god is right Killjoy. Thanks for the hearty laugh my simple friend.
Click to expand...

Gold Vision said:
Kill needs to be judged against his B1G peers, not his failed predecessors. He flat out needs to win more recruiting battles for proven talent.

Obviously recruiting to Minnesota is easier said than done, but it's disappointing to see Kill's best year followed by another bottom level B1G class. All I'm looking for is measurable signs of improvement on the recruiting trail.
Click to expand...

It appeared to me that your analysis of Kill's recruiting was based on a very simple assumption, i.e. that recruiting services rankings are accurate. Unfortunately, there have been endless discussions here on this topic but very little agreement. The reality is that recruiting services rankings have limited value. There primary purpose is to make money from fans. I would therefore suggest if you are really interested in looking at and judging Kill's recruiting classes that you need to look beyond the recruiting services. For example, there have some good analysis has been done here that shows that Kill has been very successful in identifying and recruiting under the radar players such as Eric Murray, Ben Lauer, and Cedric Thompson to name a few. I may not have stated very well why I was having a problem with your post, but I do think if you are going to judge coach Kill and his recruiting it shouldn't be done with a little more depth. That would requires a different approach and would be an interesting discussion.
 

Sparlimb said:
Had to switch to an offense Phillip had a chance to understand, but that didn't work out either.
Click to expand...

We switched to an offense that we had the personnel to run. It had nothing to do with Nelson being able to understand the offense. It had to do with us not having any play makers.
 

Sparlimb said:
Rape happened on Brewster's watch, no one else's. Don't blame anyone else for that.
Click to expand...

By that logic Kill had talented players like Jewahn Edwards, Michael Carter & Rashede Hageman flunking out of school & using drugs on his watch. Can't blame anyone else right?

Nonsense. That's what Kill inherited from Brewster & one of the many reasons Brew had to go. Just like Brew inherited the rapists from Mason & that too was indicative of the many reasons Mason had to go. A coach's first year they inherit the problems of the coach before them. That's how it works.
 

Killjoy said:
It appeared to me that your analysis of Kill's recruiting was based on a very simple assumption, i.e. that recruiting services rankings are accurate. Unfortunately, there have been endless discussions here on this topic but very little agreement. The reality is that recruiting services rankings have limited value. There primary purpose is to make money from fans. I would therefore suggest if you are really interested in looking at and judging Kill's recruiting classes that you need to look beyond the recruiting services. For example, there have some good analysis has been done here that shows that Kill has been very successful in identifying and recruiting under the radar players such as Eric Murray, Ben Lauer, and Cedric Thompson to name a few. I may not have stated very well why I was having a problem with your post, but I do think if you are going to judge coach Kill and his recruiting it shouldn't be done with a little more depth. That would requires a different approach and would be an interesting discussion.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the recruiting insight Killjoy. I value your unbiased opinions highly.
 

Ahh Gopherhole.

Fact of the matter this is the year Kill separates from Brewster or not. I think he will succeed but a 3-9 season is not impossible. 3-9 probably gets him another year unlike Brewster who turned off many with his personality. Fact of the matter, though, is that he cared enough to be cheering for the Gophers while he was/is working at FSU.

Anyone who carries a grudge against Bielema to a new job is ok by me.
 

We haven't been to the Rose Bowl since before I was born and I'm old and grey. All of our recent football coaches have sucked. Let's hope Jerry breaks the trend.
 

beatles said:
I couldn't disagree more with the bolded sentence above. When kids are being recruited you don't think they look at the recent history of that program for an indication of what they'd be in for? Brewster had a lot to sell when he took over. A program that was consistently bowling and a new stadium on the way. That helps recruiting. To say it's "completely irrelevant" is silly.
Click to expand...

Your point had nothing to do with recruiting, that's a new twist you just added. Your argument was that Brew should have done better because the team had been to many bowl games over the previous 8-9 years. My point is that the team from 2001 has no on-the-field relevance to the team from 2007. Different players & different circumstances. Again, we'd finished 112th (I believe it was 112th out of 128, correct me if I'm wrong?) on D which I believe was a new low even by Mason standards? So we were on a downward arc. Logically would you expect we'd be better or worse on defense the next year? Then factor in that we lost 8 starters & had only two weeks to recruit Freshman replacements? You must be able to see how this was different than what Mason had been working with in the past? Look at the 2007 roster. The defensive side is talentless. The worst I've ever seen. I'm not saying Tim Brewster was a good coach, obviously not. I like Coach Kill, he's the guy. What I'm saying is Brew inherited a team where he was starting from scratch on defense & had marginal talent on offense, but no depth. What we needed was Coach Kill at that time. Instead we got Brew, he maintained the status quo going to a couple bottom level bowl games & that Kill inherited a slightly better situation than Brew due to the talent he inherited.
 

Killjoy said:
It appeared to me that your analysis of Kill's recruiting was based on a very simple assumption, i.e. that recruiting services rankings are accurate. Unfortunately, there have been endless discussions here on this topic but very little agreement. The reality is that recruiting services rankings have limited value. There primary purpose is to make money from fans. I would therefore suggest if you are really interested in looking at and judging Kill's recruiting classes that you need to look beyond the recruiting services. For example, there have some good analysis has been done here that shows that Kill has been very successful in identifying and recruiting under the radar players such as Eric Murray, Ben Lauer, and Cedric Thompson to name a few. I may not have stated very well why I was having a problem with your post, but I do think if you are going to judge coach Kill and his recruiting it shouldn't be done with a little more depth. That would requires a different approach and would be an interesting discussion.
Click to expand...

I knwo your post wasn't responding to me but I wanted to reply anyhow. I agree with you 100% that recruits shouldn't be judged by rankings alone & that Kill has done an admirable job of finding under-the-radar guys. Still, for all his flaws, Brew recruited some quality players in Michael Cater, Rashede Hageman, Gary Tinsley, Tramaine Brock, Traye Simmons, Jewahn Edwards, Brandon Kirksey, Sam Maresh (injury), Troy Stoudermire, Brock Vereen, Keenan Cooper, Marquies Gray, Brandon Green (injury), Da'Jon McKnight, Jimmy Gjere (Injury), Brooks Michel (Injury), Zac Epping, Josh Campion, Ed & Tommy Olson, et al. I don't care about their star rankings, I'm just saying I don't see a huge talent upgrade in the players Kill's bringing in. I see a guy with a system & a quality coaching staff to properly develop players.
 

I did some numbers crunching regarding the Wacker, Mason, Brewster, Kill evaluation. I did it for the 1st 3 years of their tenure. I came up with this:

Brewster = Wacker
Kill = Mason

I did this by using Big 10 wins (since some on this board think that is all that matters). Remember, this is the 1st 3 years:

Wacker went 6-18
Mason went 8-16
Brewster went 6-18
Kill is now 8-16

The big divider among these coaches was year 4:

Wacker 1-7
Mason 4-4
Brewster 0-3

If Brewster had stayed, would he have matched Wackers 1-7? I don't think so (remember, he lost to South Dakota earlier that year). The jury is still out, but this is Kill's defining year. I like what I see, but the B1G schedule (and TCU) will be telling.
 

Gold Vision said:
Lots of time left. Hope to see continued improvement, and sincerely hope JK's the guy to do it.

You've gotta break into that upper half sometime to make a conference championship run.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily, I already pointed out how the Badgers had 5 classes in a row that where they were ranked average to poor. I don't remember anyone thinking Kill was going to be on Brewster's level as a recruiter when he was hired. I've been pretty happy with how Kill has done up to this point.
 

Rescooter said:
I did some numbers crunching regarding the Wacker, Mason, Brewster, Kill evaluation. I did it for the 1st 3 years of their tenure. I came up with this:

Brewster = Wacker
Kill = Mason

I did this by using Big 10 wins (since some on this board think that is all that matters). Remember, this is the 1st 3 years:

Wacker went 6-18
Mason went 8-16
Brewster went 6-18
Kill is now 8-16

The big divider among these coaches was year 4:

Wacker 1-7
Mason 4-4
Brewster 0-3

If Brewster had stayed, would he have matched Wackers 1-7? I don't think so (remember, he lost to South Dakota earlier that year). The jury is still out, but this is Kill's defining year. I like what I see, but the B1G schedule (and TCU) will be telling.
Click to expand...

I like your breakdown. I always find it interesting when people try and compare Kill to Brewster as justification of what he is doing when the measuring stick he needs to be held against is Mason. There is no doubt Kill is a better coach and has a better network around him then Brewster. The Brewster hire was a massive screw up by the administration and it is not a surprise that a well established head coach like Kill has been able to stabilize things after the mess that was created by a guy with no head coaching experience and no real idea what he was doing at the time he was hired.

The question that remains is where can Kill take things. Can he recruit enough talent to push the team past the Mason levels which was respectable but not a true threat to contend. I would say right now we are basically back to those Mason levels. The next two years will tell the story, either he will continue to move up the food chain or NT will find someone else to run the show after 2015.
 

dpodoll68 said:
It's not an opinion, though.

Brewster 15-30 (.333), 6-21 (.222), 2 bowl appearances
Wacker 16-39 (.291), 8-32 (.200), 0 bowl appearances

Wacker was worse by every conceivable measure. These are facts.



Yes, the worst season in Gophers history. Tim Brewster had nothing to do with it, other than being an All-Big Ten selection and the captain of the Illinois team that went to the Rose Bowl and on the way there kicked the Gophers' asses up and down the Metrodome turf (being one of SIX teams to score more than 50 POINTS on the Gophers that season). The 2007 Gophers gave up 50 to exactly no one, and actually lost 6 games by a TD or less.



Again, it's not arguable. He didn't. He was not a good coach, but was not nearly as bad as many here want to portray him.



What? Are you on crack? Two 3-win teams are among the worst we've ever had? You claim to have been a Gopher fan for a long time, but you clearly don't know the team's history very well.



It's not completely subjective. They keep scores and stats and everything.
Click to expand...

The 1983 team was the worst by any measure. I saw that team play. They gave it every ounce they had, but they weren't very good. Injuries played a part in the futility, but it was pretty woeful.

There's really no valid comparison to anything that's gone on since in terms of futility.
 

Costa Rican Gopher said:
I knwo your post wasn't responding to me but I wanted to reply anyhow. I agree with you 100% that recruits shouldn't be judged by rankings alone & that Kill has done an admirable job of finding under-the-radar guys. Still, for all his flaws, Brew recruited some quality players in Michael Cater, Rashede Hageman, Gary Tinsley, Tramaine Brock, Traye Simmons, Jewahn Edwards, Brandon Kirksey, Sam Maresh (injury), Troy Stoudermire, Brock Vereen, Keenan Cooper, Marquies Gray, Brandon Green (injury), Da'Jon McKnight, Jimmy Gjere (Injury), Brooks Michel (Injury), Zac Epping, Josh Campion, Ed & Tommy Olson, et al. I don't care about their star rankings, I'm just saying I don't see a huge talent upgrade in the players Kill's bringing in. I see a guy with a system & a quality coaching staff to properly develop players.
Click to expand...

Well done. You've hit on the difference.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom