Improvement under Kill

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

I don't know who in their right mind thought this was going to be an immediate, quick fix. Good grief. It's a process; win some, get a slightly better recruit; win a little more, bring in a slightly better recruit; win a little more, bring in a slightly better recruit.... see a pattern?

Last year was the first quality season in quite some time; the rewards of that season will likely be seen on the recruiting trail for the 2015 class. Win 8 or more again this season and the 2016 class will benefit.

The foundation for the 2014 class was laid while recruiting after seasons of 3-9 and 6-7. I'm not exactly shocked that it's not a Top 20 class.

 

[EG#9]

This is such a bizarre conversation to me because it seems to be based on peoples own biases and preferences instead of actual facts. Tim Brewster barely got a fourth year despite going to "bowl" games in years 2 and 3 after taking over a program in bad shape...and on late notice. The '09 and '08 teams were similarly competitive to last years Gophers if all 8 games are evaluated (more close losses for the Brewster squads), but the extra win definitely gives the edge to last years squad. I posted last year that the Gophers were starting about an identical number of kids who were recruited by Brewster in year 3 as Brewster was starting kids recruited by Mason in year 3. The expectations/standards for Brewster were clearly set much higher...do you think there will be any movement to fire Jerry Kill if he wins 2 or fewer B1G games in his fourth season?

The recruiting thing is also interesting. Some are willing to believe Kill's first class (combined with what was left of Brewster's class) shouldn't count, yet Brewster seems to get blame for a class that he couldn't start recruiting until sometime in mid/late January. Brewster got to coach his first real recruiting class for 2 1/2 years. If a program is a contender, some talented kids from that class are just getting their first real taste of game action. Obviously we haven't been at that point as a program, but 'Shede is an example of a kid who would have looked like a bust for his first 2 years on campus. He's also an example of a kid who we had zero chance to land pre-Brewster.

There's plenty of things that are pointed to as reasons for Brewster's failure, but these are usually the main two: No Experience as a head coach/No continuity on the coaching staff

IF Kill also fails, we will likely point to either 1. No experience recruiting/coaching at the BCS level 2. Too much loyalty to a staff that wasn't getting the job done. Yes, most talk about staff continuity as a major positive, but IF the offensive sputters through another B1G season, most will be grumbling about sticking with Limegrover as OC despite a routinely weak offense.


None of this is to say Brewster is better than, or even equal to, Jerry Kill. At the end of the day, all I personally care about is W's and L's and we've been slightly better through 3 years of Jerry Kill. My concern, as I have expressed in the past, is that 1/2 our B1G wins came in one four game stretch and that the team has really not been very competitive in more than a couple of their 16 B1G losses. Maybe it means nothing, but that four win stretch also came when Jerry Kill had significantly less involvement with the program.

I am excited to see what this year brings, but I am also skeptical that the team will match/exceed last years B1G win total. We will know so much more about the true direction of the program after this year and hopefully those that are bullish on Kill will be proven right.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

This argument comes up all the time. I think it depends what your definition of recruiting is and how you look at it.

Brewster was good at landing highly recruited players. He's probably won more battles with good programs than Kill has. If my team has identified a player they really want, I would want Brewster going after him. His problem appeared to be he just didn't have much of a plan. He took a lot more chances on trouble makers and potential academic casualties.

Kill has been good at identifying players that fit his system, he has a plan. He's done a good job so far of finding sleepers like Murray and Cockran. A majority of the players he signs actually make it on campus. But, as others have pointed out, he hasn't landed a lot of top talent recruits yet either. Getting the under the radar type guys is great and all, but we also need to start landing some more natural talented guys if we want to take the next step.

I think he felt he had to win immediately so he said "to hell with it" & rolled the dice on players. He promised us SEC style football & did his best to deliver, on many levels. I think the fans, the U, Kill & Brew himself all learned a lot from his mistakes. Kill was able to articulate the need to develop players (especially under-the-radar types) over 4-5 years & the mark the progress of the team with metrics other than W-L for the first 4-5 years.

 

[mplsbadger]

need to improve competing to recruit. That's fact.

FIFY

 

[Dr.Don]

I don't know who in their right mind thought this was going to be an immediate, quick fix. Good grief. It's a process; win some, get a slightly better recruit; win a little more, bring in a slightly better recruit; win a little more, bring in a slightly better recruit.... see a pattern?

Last year was the first quality season in quite some time; the rewards of that season will likely be seen on the recruiting trail for the 2015 class. Win 8 or more again this season and the 2016 class will benefit.

The foundation for the 2014 class was laid while recruiting after seasons of 3-9 and 6-7. I'm not exactly shocked that it's not a Top 20 class.

But we need to win now. The hell with building brick by brick nonsense.

 

[noamfromm]

Wasn't Edwards a 3 year starter? Maresh had a heart surgery & never really recovered. Hard to lay that on Brew. Lamonte was too young to make an impact under Brew & got in trouble on Kill's watch. Hayo & Palmer were busts for sure. On the other hand, Kill's signed Phillip Nelson, Andre McDonald, Jamel Harbison, James Gillum, Crawford-Tufts, Ge'Shun Harris, Malcom Moulton, Max Shortell, Drayquan Crawford & Jordan Hinojosa. I'm not pining for the return of Brew. I feel like there are plenty of legit reasons to rag on Brew, but his recruiting wasn't one of them.

For some reason Jerry Kill makes the most out of the recruits with the least amount stars.

2 Star Recruits per Rivals
2011:
John Rabe, Cedric Thompson, Derrick Wells, Marcus Jones, and Theiren Cockran

2012: Eric Murray, J. Baltazar, Ben Lauer, Alex Keith, Yoshoub Timms, Fruechte, Scott Ekpe, Mitch Leidner

2013: Ryan Santoso, Damien Wilson, Chris Wipson, Jalen Myrick, Daletavius McGhee

2014: J. Weyler, Gary Moore, Jonathan Celestin, Luke Rasmussen, Rodney Smith, Jerry Gibson, Everett Williams, Desmond Gant

Graduated: Baltazar, Rabe

Starters: Thompson, Wells, Jones, Cockran, Murray, Leidner, Santoso, Wilson

Not Starting/Playing due to Injury: Lauer, Keith, Ekpe, and Timms

In Rotation: Fruechte(started due to injury), Myrick, Moore, Celestin, Jerry Gibson??, Everett Williams

Out of his 26 two star recruits 5 are not seeing the rotation 1 RS FR 4 FR

 

[Indi1006]

Kill's recruiting is head and shoulders better than Brews and even more so better than Masons final few years. He's gets kids who stick around and get better and he's also now starting to pop kids being recruited by schools we had always lost to in the past.

 

[lakesgopher]

Kill's recruiting is head and shoulders better than Brews and even more so better than Masons final few years. He's gets kids who stick around and get better and he's also now starting to pop kids being recruited by schools we had always lost to in the past.

From strictly a talent perspective I would still lean brewster recruited higher level talent but kill has done a better job recruiting overall since his players are actually getting into school and playing. If Brewster would have gotten every kid in school he might still be around.

 

[Rescooter]

Jerry Kill knows he needs a gamebreaker QB or he won't see the end of his 7 yr extension. He better have one in the stable in yr 4.

total speculation ----- QBs leave JKs a22 high and dry almost as though the parting player is actively taking a parting shot at sinking Jerry's boat.

wait! what? has a cool name, but his cryptic responses are starting to make me think that he's trying to communicate in code to aliens.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

I think he felt he had to win immediately so he said "to hell with it" & rolled the dice on players. He promised us SEC style football & did his best to deliver, on many levels. I think the fans, the U, Kill & Brew himself all learned a lot from his mistakes. Kill was able to articulate the need to develop players (especially under-the-radar types) over 4-5 years & the mark the progress of the team with metrics other than W-L for the first 4-5 years.

After last year's success, it is time for W-L to be the metric.

 

[BreakTheGopherCurse]

Until coach Kill recruits a QB who can run the offense as well Chandler Harnish and Jordan Lynch, this team will not get to where we all want them. Kill and company have clearly overlooked QB's who are playing for "lower profile" teams and who the Gophers presumably could've recruited. Instead, for reasons I'll never know, he took a QB from Mankato West and one from Lakeville that can't run his system well enough. Did he take them to show Minnesota high school coaches and players that he was "putting up a border" around the State? You can watch teams on TV that are lower profile than Minnesota but have QBs with a better feel for the game, are better throwers, and show more poise. I firmly believe the Gophers could've been further along in their progress under Kill had they done a better job of finding the right QB. It's a mystery why they weren't able to recruit QBs who were more suited for the system and who could throw the ball better. Or, perhaps, somebody is doing a below average job of teaching these kids the position. I tend to think it's the former rather than the latter.

 

[MrGopher]

If Jerry has a Jug or an Axe in his hands at the end of the year, and we get 8 wins with a tougher schedule...

Can we please promise to end any Kill vs Brewster debate forever, and at least move up to the Kill vs Mason realm?

The Kill v Brewster debate is borderline ludicrous already.

 

[Killjoy]

Until coach Kill recruits a QB who can run the offense as well Chandler Harnish and Jordan Lynch, this team will not get to where we all want them. Kill and company have clearly overlooked QB's who are playing for "lower profile" teams and who the Gophers presumably could've recruited. Instead, for reasons I'll never know, he took a QB from Mankato West and one from Lakeville that can't run his system well enough. Did he take them to show Minnesota high school coaches and players that he was "putting up a border" around the State? You can watch teams on TV that are lower profile than Minnesota but have QBs with a better feel for the game, are better throwers, and show more poise. I firmly believe the Gophers could've been further along in their progress under Kill had they done a better job of finding the right QB. It's a mystery why they weren't able to recruit QBs who were more suited for the system and who could throw the ball better. Or, perhaps, somebody is doing a below average job of teaching these kids the position. I tend to think it's the former rather than the latter.

I am afraid there are no guarantees in recruiting even if you do all the right things. It is part science, part intuition, part hard work, and part luck. It is clear that Kill and his staff have developed a process for identifying and evaluating recruits that has proven over time to work. But you are still rolling the dice. These are high school kids who can change a lot physically after the fall of their senior year. Others may turn out not to be able to handle the mental aspects of playing college football. Again, Kill and company have proven to be very good at finding players that have a lot of upside potential. So to say what you said in bold is highly presumptuous and speculative on your part. Sometimes you just roll snake eyes.

 

[imthewalrus]

When the final Big Ten Standings for the Western Conference have been posted at the end of this 2014 Conference season, we will know EXACTLY where Coach Kill stands compared to the Coaches from Purdue, Illinois, NU, iowa, wisky and Nebraska in terms of Game Day Coaching, development of players, Strength & Conditioning, and recruiting to that point in time. We can look ONLY at the results in head to head competition between the Western Confernce teams and coaches. There can be NO excuse making. No spinning. There will be NO place to run and NO place to hide. The finishing order will be set in stone and will be recorded forever.

Will you be man enough to live with what that record will tell us killjoy? Or, will you attempt to spin the results of what head to head competition will TELL us? Because Coach Kill is no more of a Big Ten Coach...or...no less of a Big Ten Coach than his Big Ten record tells us he is. That head to head competition is a great opportunity for him to coach better, recruit better, Game plan better than the coaches he coaches against year in and year out in the Western Division of the Big Ten/B1G Conference. What a GREAT opportunity Coach Kill has in 2014...right killjoy? We will see what the Big Ten Western Division Conference Record will tell us in 2014 killjoy. Starting September 27th in Ann Arbor, Conference play will begin. And the very next week, head to head competition with Division coaches will give Coach Kill a great chance to get off to a great start against some of the coaches in the Western Division. First coach to coach competition for Coach kill will be vs. Coach Fitz...when he brings NU into Minneapolis for that Divisional Conference clash. Fun times killjoy. And we will keep track of every conference and every western division win and/or loss.

So if you would kindly stop by each and every one of my posts, we can discuss just how well this ranking of the Western Divisions coaches is going for Coach Kill. I'll be looking for you killjoy. You are just SO damn attached to me. I might as well have some fun with your visits. You take care now, killjoy...you hear????

 

[Killjoy]

wren - Every time you make one of your simplistic posts I am reminded of the movie Being There. You are truly the living and breathing character Chance from that movie.

 

[imthewalrus]

Back so soon killjoy? Can't you hardly wait to start discussing the head to head competitions Coach Kill has with the other coaches in the Western Division of this wonderful conference? Won't it be GREAT to have so much riding on the outcome of EVERY Conference Western Division Game? And there will be an answer each and every week when this head to head competition starts. Well, hurry back killjoy.

 

[Spoofin]

Wasn't Edwards a 3 year starter? Maresh had a heart surgery & never really recovered. Hard to lay that on Brew. Lamonte was too young to make an impact under Brew & got in trouble on Kill's watch. Hayo & Palmer were busts for sure. On the other hand, Kill's signed Phillip Nelson, Andre McDonald, Jamel Harbison, James Gillum, Crawford-Tufts, Ge'Shun Harris, Malcom Moulton, Max Shortell, Drayquan Crawford & Jordan Hinojosa. I'm not pining for the return of Brew. I feel like there are plenty of legit reasons to rag on Brew, but his recruiting wasn't one of them.

As I said in my original post, we can all (me included) cherry pick certain players to make a point here. My overall goal was to say just because Brew had players with higher rankings in HS doesn't mean he recruited better players. There is no way to win this argument on either side. I won't try any more. BTW - to claim Maresh didn't pan out due to his surgery is totally burying the lead.

 

[beatles]

Kill's recruiting resulted in our first .500 conference record in 8 years. Brewster's recruiting resulted in arguably the darkest years of Gopher football history and that's saying something.

 

[dpodoll68]

Kill's recruiting resulted in our first .500 conference record in 8 years.

Sure, if you want to ignore the Brewster recruits who were several of the best players on the team.

Brewster's recruiting resulted in arguably the darkest years of Gopher football history and that's saying something.

Nah. It's not arguable. Wacker had a worse record than Brewster (which people like to conveniently forget/ignore), and the 1983 team was worse than either the 2007 or 2010 teams.

 

[beatles]

Sure, if you want to ignore the Brewster recruits who were several of the best players on the team.



Nah. It's not arguable. Wacker had a worse record than Brewster (which people like to conveniently forget/ignore), and the 1983 team was worse than either the 2007 or 2010 teams.

Umm yes it is arguable. Hate to break it to you but your opinion is no better than mine. I would argue that Wacker left the program in slightly better shape than Brewster did although they were both terrible. Maybe not record wise but just the culture of the program, going to class, etc. And 1983 is ONE season. I said Brewster lead us to "arguably" the darkest years of Gopher football and his last year and Kill's first are 2 of the worst teams we've ever had.

I should've expected you to dissect my post like you do everyone else's and then act like your opinion is fact. How can you say "not arguable" about a something that is completely subjective?

 

[Sparlimb]

Sure, if you want to ignore the Brewster recruits who were several of the best players on the team.



Nah. It's not arguable. Wacker had a worse record than Brewster (which people like to conveniently forget/ignore), and the 1983 team was worse than either the 2007 or 2010 teams.

The 1983 team was atrocious (the loss to Nebraska to never be forgotten) and the Wacker years made us a laughing stock. What people sometimes forget is that we were so bad for so long that what Mason did accomplish was remarkable. I know it wasn't enough for folks, but that's where we were. And while Brewster had our best recruiting classes since Holtz, he proved he had no business running a football program (or any other business ever). Kill has settled the ship for sure. Whether his recruiting is ever enough to win enough games to satisfy the pundits here is to be seen (although likely impossible). Let's just give the team a chance and not be so pissed off when we win games.

 

[Maximus]

Wacker had a worse record than Brewster (which people like to conveniently forget/ignore)

Wacker had more wins as head coach than Brew, but that wouldn't be fair to your argument since Wacker had more time. Guessing that's based on win percentage?

Does that mean Pitino's (.658/.444 BT) already surpassed Tubby (.605/.426 BT) in your eyes?

 

[DoubleB]

Not sure I agree. Depth is better. I think Kill simply had better overall recruiting plan, not that he brought in better players per se.

I would not say Kill's classes are markedly better but here is the proof plus as a coaching staff Kill and staff is by far way a head of Brewster and his revolving door

year Scout Rival Rival num ESPN 247 stars 247 ESPN Num
2010 2.20 2.88 5.52 2.78 64.36
2011 2.33 2.67 5.30 2.58 2.58 78.58 64.67
2012 2.32 2.70 5.48 2.53 2.63 80.25 62.64
2013 2.50 2.80 5.54 3.00 2.90 82.75 74.21
2014 2.76 2.67 5.51 3.00 2.57 81.57 74.29
2015 2.82 2.75 5.50 3.00 2.83 82.50 74.55

Numbers are from the respective sites that make a living and what everyone judges from.


first two years were Brewster s and except for the 2010's rivals score Kill seems to be increasing his averages and are above what Brewster brought in. matched with the fact that Brewters recruits barely made it to school and onto the field and Brewster s revolving door for coaches. we are in a better spot without Brewster(I bought into his hype until he couldn't do it on the field)

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

Until coach Kill recruits a QB who can run the offense as well Chandler Harnish and Jordan Lynch, this team will not get to where we all want them. Kill and company have clearly overlooked QB's who are playing for "lower profile" teams and who the Gophers presumably could've recruited. Instead, for reasons I'll never know, he took a QB from Mankato West and one from Lakeville that can't run his system well enough. Did he take them to show Minnesota high school coaches and players that he was "putting up a border" around the State? You can watch teams on TV that are lower profile than Minnesota but have QBs with a better feel for the game, are better throwers, and show more poise. I firmly believe the Gophers could've been further along in their progress under Kill had they done a better job of finding the right QB. It's a mystery why they weren't able to recruit QBs who were more suited for the system and who could throw the ball better. Or, perhaps, somebody is doing a below average job of teaching these kids the position. I tend to think it's the former rather than the latter.

Kill DID recruit a QB for his system. Phillip Nelson was perfect for it. As a recruit Leidner was not an important get, no one else really wanted him. Nelson though, boy he was going to be "the man". He was the statement recruit that Kill needed & he stole away from Wisconsin to boot. Then they changed the system from a shotgun based, zone read, to a run heavy, play action offense with Nelson under center which didn't suit him at all. And here we are.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

Once again, it seems no one can agree on what the definition of "recruiting" is.

If you base recruiting strictly on the names and stars on signing day, then you can make an argument that Brewster was a better "recruiter" than Kill.

But, if you expand the definition of "recruiting" to include whether players made it into school, stayed in school and contributed, and whether the players fit the coaches' system, then it becomes a very different argument.

It's like if you hire a guy to build a house. The day you move in, the house looks great. then, 6 months later, the cabinets start falling off the walls and the floor starts settling. Was the guy a good builder? I would say time showed the answer to be no.

 

[Oregon Gopher]

Is that in Aramaic?

 

[Spoofin]

Anyone else find it comical that in the same thread some folks are arguing that Brewster had perhaps the worst teams in the modern era and that he left the program in the worst shape (true), yet others are arguing that he was a great recruiter (since rankings are the know all/tell all). Only on GH.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

Kill's recruiting resulted in our first .500 conference record in 8 years. Brewster's recruiting resulted in arguably the darkest years of Gopher football history and that's saying something.

Nonsense. Brewster inherited a dumpster fire. Worse than what Kill inherited from Brew. Mason's defense was like 112th (??? someone look it up) his last year. He has failed to recruit for several years & had scrambled to assemble 7 Jucos to plug the holes on defense. When he got canned we lost those Jucos. Brew had 2 weeks to recruit a class. Nick Saban couldn't have squuezed out more than 3 wins that season because of the mess Mason left. Then we lost team Captain CB Dom Jones, starting DE Alex Daniels & likely starter at S Keith Massey in the sex scandal. Then we lost backup DE Robert McField because he was wanted for armed robbery & the Mason staff hadn't bothered to run a basic background check on him.

Point being is those dark days you mention were largely the result of Mason's recruiting, not Brew's.

After we limped through that first year undermanned (I've never seen a less talented B1G defense, ever), Brew moved Marcus Sherels to CB, brought in Jucos Simoni Lawrence, Ced McKinley, Big Play Traye & Tramaine Brock as well as Freshmen Jewahn Edwards, Brandon Kirksey, Gary Tinsley, Troy Stoudermire, DL Wilhite & Keenan Cooper. That's a pretty dramatic talent upgrade.

 

[beatles]

Nah. It's not arguable. Wacker had a worse record than Brewster (which people like to conveniently forget/ignore), and the 1983 team was worse than either the 2007 or 2010 teams.

Let's not forget that Wacker took over a bad program. Brewster took over a program that was in pretty good shape. You don't think that contributed to Brew having the better record? Funny how you left out that tidbit.

 

[imthewalrus]

Not only was that Brewster a horrible coach, but, the brewball apologists are all high school four star fantasy die-hards. Somehow, that Brewster appealed to those types. So, we have your basic "recruiting stars NEVER lie" types who bought that Brewster b.s. hook, line and sinker still apologizing for those horrible brewball throw away years.

It is so incredibly comical. Pathetic, really...