Improvement under Kill

[Costa Rican Gopher]

Anyone else find it comical that in the same thread some folks are arguing that Brewster had perhaps the worst teams in the modern era and that he left the program in the worst shape (true), yet others are arguing that he was a great recruiter (since rankings are the know all/tell all). Only on GH.

You think Brew left the program in worse shape then he found it? Really? He inherited a sex scandal, a player wanted for armed robbery & a 2007 roster that featured Duran Cooley, Jamal Harris, Daron Love, Desi Steib, Michael McKelton, Todd Meisel, Barret Moen, Steve Moore, Matt Stommes, Sherels & Shevlin. We had 3 legit players on defense in Dom Barber, WVS & Steve Davis.

 

[beatles]

Nonsense. Brewster inherited a dumpster fire. Worse than what Kill inherited from Brew. Mason's defense was like 112th (??? someone look it up) his last year. He has failed to recruit for several years & had scrambled to assemble 7 Jucos to plug the holes on defense. When he got canned we lost those Jucos. Brew had 2 weeks to recruit a class. Nick Saban couldn't have squuezed out more than 3 wins that season because of the mess Mason left. Then we lost team Captain CB Dom Jones, starting DE Alex Daniels & likely starter at S Keith Massey in the sex scandal. Then we lost backup DE Robert McField because he was wanted for armed robbery & the Mason staff hadn't bothered to run a basic background check on him.

Point being is those dark days you mention were largely the result of Mason's recruiting, not Brew's.

After we limped through that first year undermanned (I've never seen a less talented B1G defense, ever), Brew moved Marcus Sherels to CB, brought in Jucos Simoni Lawrence, Ced McKinley, Big Play Traye & Tramaine Brock as well as Freshmen Jewahn Edwards, Brandon Kirksey, Gary Tinsley, Troy Stoudermire, DL Wilhite & Keenan Cooper. That's a pretty dramatic talent upgrade.

I stopped reading after your first 2 sentences. You can not be serious are you? Brewster took over a program that was consistently going to bowl games and was in the process of building a nice new shiny on campus stadium. You honestly believe that the program was in better shape after Brewsters tenure than it was after Mason? If so you have lost all credibility on this site. In fact it's one of the more puzzling opinions I've ever seen on this board.

 

[beatles]

You think Brew left the program in worse shape then he found it?

YES!!!!! A thousand times YES!! I'm starting to think you're messing with us. You have to be.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

I would not say Kill's classes are markedly better but here is the proof plus as a coaching staff Kill and staff is by far way a head of Brewster and his revolving door

year Scout Rival Rival num ESPN 247 stars 247 ESPN Num
2010 2.20 2.88 5.52 2.78 64.36
2011 2.33 2.67 5.30 2.58 2.58 78.58 64.67
2012 2.32 2.70 5.48 2.53 2.63 80.25 62.64
2013 2.50 2.80 5.54 3.00 2.90 82.75 74.21
2014 2.76 2.67 5.51 3.00 2.57 81.57 74.29
2015 2.82 2.75 5.50 3.00 2.83 82.50 74.55

Numbers are from the respective sites that make a living and what everyone judges from.


first two years were Brewster s and except for the 2010's rivals score Kill seems to be increasing his averages and are above what Brewster brought in. matched with the fact that Brewters recruits barely made it to school and onto the field and Brewster s revolving door for coaches. we are in a better spot without Brewster(I bought into his hype until he couldn't do it on the field)

Where are the numbers for 2008 & 2009? Sure is a convenient sample group you chose.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

YES!!!!! A thousand times YES!! I'm starting to think you're messing with us. You have to be.

Here we were thinking this is just a bit you're putting on? Kill inherited an undisciplined team with some good talent, but lacking depth. Brew inherited a sex scandal, a fugitive capture & the worst defense I have ever seen on a B1G roster.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

I stopped reading after your first 2 sentences. You can not be serious are you? Brewster took over a program that was consistently going to bowl games and was in the process of building a nice new shiny on campus stadium. You honestly believe that the program was in better shape after Brewsters tenure than it was after Mason? If so you have lost all credibility on this site. In fact it's one of the more puzzling opinions I've ever seen on this board.

I believe that you stopped reading after two sentences. That's why you're still so ignorant. I'm going to take a wild guess that you aren't old enough to clearly remember the pile of s*it Mason left us with? The days of 10 win seasons & Barber/Maroney were long gone.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

I would not say Kill's classes are markedly better but here is the proof plus as a coaching staff Kill and staff is by far way a head of Brewster and his revolving door

year Scout Rival Rival num ESPN 247 stars 247 ESPN Num
2010 2.20 2.88 5.52 2.78 64.36
2011 2.33 2.67 5.30 2.58 2.58 78.58 64.67
2012 2.32 2.70 5.48 2.53 2.63 80.25 62.64
2013 2.50 2.80 5.54 3.00 2.90 82.75 74.21
2014 2.76 2.67 5.51 3.00 2.57 81.57 74.29
2015 2.82 2.75 5.50 3.00 2.83 82.50 74.55

Numbers are from the respective sites that make a living and what everyone judges from.


first two years were Brewster s and except for the 2010's rivals score Kill seems to be increasing his averages and are above what Brewster brought in. matched with the fact that Brewters recruits barely made it to school and onto the field and Brewster s revolving door for coaches. we are in a better spot without Brewster(I bought into his hype until he couldn't do it on the field)

I never said we weren't in a better spot with Kill. I wouldn't trade Kill for Brew in a million years. I said there are a lot of things to criticize about Brew, but recruiting wasn't one of them. I also said I don't see Kill's recruiting being any better in terms of talent, just better planned out.

 

[Spoofin]

I believe that you stopped reading after two sentences. That's why you're still so ignorant. I'm going to take a wild guess that you aren't old enough to clearly remember the pile of s*it Mason left us with? The days of 10 win seasons & Barber/Maroney were long gone.

With all DUE respect, CRG, most of us stopped caring what you said with your never ending posts defending PN9 on what happened in Mankato. Your ignorance on Brewster is simply adding on to your legend now. My unhappiness with the end of the Mason years is well documented here, but to argue that Brewster wasn't worse (or even 10-times worse) smells of trolling.

 

[DoubleB]

I never said we weren't in a better spot with Kill. I wouldn't trade Kill for Brew in a million years. I said there are a lot of things to criticize about Brew, but recruiting wasn't one of them. I also said I don't see Kill's recruiting being any better in terms of talent, just better planned out.

And all I was saying was that Brewster classes were not as good as people think and that is announced classes seemed better than they were. Kill has increasingly improved his classes albeit at a pace that most fans are impatient for.

winning will help with all of the recruiting stuff and Kill/staff can coach football and have a direction to work towards with a clear plan

Brewters biggest issue was changing his philosophy year in and year out. changing coaches did not help either but went along with him needing to change so much. so you could say that all the kids leaving were due to Brewster changing his idea on how to run his program or that they couldn't make it into school to begin with but his tenure here was a wreck and set back the UofM years and made Kills job harder to begin. that in the end is what cost him his job.

 

[50PoundHead]

I believe that you stopped reading after two sentences. That's why you're still so ignorant. I'm going to take a wild guess that you aren't old enough to clearly remember the pile of s*it Mason left us with? The days of 10 win seasons & Barber/Maroney were long gone.

I'm with you Costa Rican. Must be a slow day at Kate Mason's dental office. Either that or she's squeezing in these posts between patients.

There can be a ton of debate about how Mason would have done the following season had he not been fired, but one can't prove the negative regardless of how one tries, so we'll never know. I think it's safe to say that the team lost a lot of key performers and the likely QB (Weber) would have been the same regardless of who was coaching. Schemes were obviously different and Weber would have likely had an easier time of it in Mason's offense. I think Mason would have won more than 1 game in 2007, but I don't think that was a bowl-bound team. Further, I don't know if the future after that would have looked that bright unless Mason ramped up his recruiting. But again, the answers to all these questions are in the stars.

 

[beatles]

I believe that you stopped reading after two sentences. That's why you're still so ignorant. I'm going to take a wild guess that you aren't old enough to clearly remember the pile of s*it Mason left us with? The days of 10 win seasons & Barber/Maroney were long gone.

Not old enough to remember Mason? I can count on one hand the number of home games I've not attended since 1984 so yes I remember Mason just fine. Mason handed Brew a program that had gone to bowls in 8 of the previous 9 seasons. Brewster was NOT hired to re-build the program. However after the Brewster years Kill WAS hired to do exactly that, re-build the program.

 

[McGopherFan]

Okay - then for those of us who thought that a Kill-like coach should have been the hire after Mason, rather than the Brewster we got, we can place Coach kill at Year One of post-Mason times and allow him the time needed to get to the "Challenge for a BT Title" Status.

I think that it is okay for me to think that way, but I do not think for a minute that Kill will take that stance. I think that Mason thought of himself a a mini-Woody Hayes, and not enough of a road warrior doing a bit of the heavy lifting himself when it comes to opening doors, keeping contact, home visits, and closing the deal. There is not enough time to think of oneself as big enough to sit back and apply a signature.

Overall things are in a much better place then they were under Brewster but Kill has not done anything to outdistance himself from Mason to this point. In order to do that he needs to get the team to contender status which is something Mason could never do. But he had the program stable for the most part and consistently in the middle of the pack which on the surface is where I would say Kill has things at the moment.

 

[McGopherFan]

Are nominations for post of the year still open? This a great one. Honest accurate.

Once again, it seems no one can agree on what the definition of "recruiting" is.

If you base recruiting strictly on the names and stars on signing day, then you can make an argument that Brewster was a better "recruiter" than Kill.

But, if you expand the definition of "recruiting" to include whether players made it into school, stayed in school and contributed, and whether the players fit the coaches' system, then it becomes a very different argument.

It's like if you hire a guy to build a house. The day you move in, the house looks great. then, 6 months later, the cabinets start falling off the walls and the floor starts settling. Was the guy a good builder? I would say time showed the answer to be no.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

With all DUE respect, CRG, most of us stopped caring what you said with your never ending posts defending PN9 on what happened in Mankato. Your ignorance on Brewster is simply adding on to your legend now. My unhappiness with the end of the Mason years is well documented here, but to argue that Brewster wasn't worse (or even 10-times worse) smells of trolling.

No that's completely disrespectful. Can't you make your point without being a c*nt & making things personal? Phillip Nelson has nothing to do with this subject other than he was Kill's biggest recruit. All I said in that thread btw is that Nelson's attorney will make a compelling case that he was attacked first & retaliated. Don't shoot the messenger.

What exactly do you think I'm arguing here anyhow? I was very clear that I don't want Brewster back. I'll take Kill every day of the week. What I'm saying is I don't see this big upgrade in recruiting from Brew to Kill. Kill has had some hits & misses, but overall his game plan is what separates him from Brew, not the quality of athlete he's bringing in. There are many good reasons to rip on Brew, I just don't think his recruiting is one of them.

 

[Mick Turition]

Wow, haven't kept up with the Hole much during off-season but can't believe there is anyone out there who could possibly defend Brewster's complete and total incompetence as a head coach in any and all phases of football. Even Wacker was a genius compared to him, instead of the slightly overwhelmed Big10 coach he was (RIP, a wonderful man). Brewster too seems like a good guy but just an absolutely, totally, completely overwhelmed Big10 coach.

 

[Spoofin]

I believe that you stopped reading after two sentences. That's why you're still so ignorant. I'm going to take a wild guess that you aren't old enough to clearly remember the pile of s*it Mason left us with? The days of 10 win seasons & Barber/Maroney were long gone.

Is this the respectful, non-personal, classy type of response you were looking for from me?

 

[die hard gopher]

Minnesota had a better Big Ten record (and overall record) than Michigan did last year. Therefore Minnesota must have been recruiting on a higher level than Michigan lately.

 

[Gold Vision]

Kill needs to be judged against his B1G peers, not his failed predecessors. He flat out needs to win more recruiting battles for proven talent.

Obviously recruiting to Minnesota is easier said than done, but it's disappointing to see Kill's best year followed by another bottom level B1G class. All I'm looking for is measurable signs of improvement on the recruiting trail.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

Not old enough to remember Mason? I can count on one hand the number of home games I've not attended since 1984 so yes I remember Mason just fine. Mason handed Brew a program that had gone to bowls in 8 of the previous 9 seasons. Brewster was NOT hired to re-build the program. However after the Brewster years Kill WAS hired to do exactly that, re-build the program.

How many bowls the team had been to in the previous years is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is how the team was when Brew took it over. It was the worst Gopher roster I've ever seen & he also got a sex scandal to boot. I'm not arguing Brewster was better than Mason mind you. I'm simply pointing out the fact that Mason's glory days were behind him, he had basically quit recruiting & the roster was a mess. Brew inherited a handful of decent offensive players & no depth. Pretty much exactly what he left Kill with. On defense though, Brew had to replace 8 starters out of thin air, had no talent to plug the holes with & no time to recruit anyone that first year. Kill on the other hand inherited Shede, Kirksey, Jacobs, Rallis, Royston, Stoudermire, Tinsley & Vereen, all B1G quality players.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

Is this the respectful, non-personal, classy type of response you were looking for from me?

Was that directed at you? Or was that my response to someone else, who had also just dooshed it up & tried to make things personal? Can you seriously not separate the Phillip Nelson incident from actual football? How long you gonna carry that around? I told you what his attorney would say, get over it.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

Wow, haven't kept up with the Hole much during off-season but can't believe there is anyone out there who could possibly defend Brewster's complete and total incompetence as a head coach in any and all phases of football. Even Wacker was a genius compared to him, instead of the slightly overwhelmed Big10 coach he was (RIP, a wonderful man). Brewster too seems like a good guy but just an absolutely, totally, completely overwhelmed Big10 coach.

Who is arguing Brewster was a good coach? I just don't think Brew was "complete & total incompetence" at recruiting. I'm not sure how much more clearly I can make this point?

 

[btowngopher]

Kill needs to be judged against his B1G peers, not his failed predecessors. He flat out needs to win more recruiting battles for proven talent.

Obviously recruiting to Minnesota is easier said than done, but it's disappointing to see Kill's best year followed by another bottom level B1G class. All I'm looking for is measurable signs of improvement on the recruiting trail.

It's middle of the road, not bottom level. Everyone should know how the damn recruiting rankings work by now. You get docked simply by having a smaller class. There are going to be about 5 teams with real nice classes, Kill will have a class that is comparable with the other teams. You really think Rutgers has a better class than us? 19 players all but 5 are two stars, yet rivals ranks them tied for 9th while we are 13th. By the way for 5 years from 2009 to 2013 Wisconsin finished in the bottom half of the b1g (with the new teams included), including a couple 13th place finishes. It's damn near impossible to recruit among the best in the big ten right now, but you can still field a consistently strong team without it. Hell most of the starting team right now came from two last place ranked classes.

 

[Spoofin]

Was that directed at you? Or was that my response to someone else, who had also just dooshed it up & tried to make things personal? Can you seriously not separate the Phillip Nelson incident from actual football? How long you gonna carry that around? I told you what his attorney would say, get over it.

Spin

 

[imthewalrus]

How many bowls the team had been to in the previous years is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is how the team was when Brew took it over. It was the worst Gopher roster I've ever seen & he also got a sex scandal to boot. I'm not arguing Brewster was better than Mason mind you. I'm simply pointing out the fact that Mason's glory days were behind him, he had basically quit recruiting & the roster was a mess. Brew inherited a handful of decent offensive players & no depth. Pretty much exactly what he left Kill with. On defense though, Brew had to replace 8 starters out of thin air, had no talent to plug the holes with & no time to recruit anyone that first year. Kill on the other hand inherited Shede, Kirksey, Jacobs, Rallis, Royston, Stoudermire, Tinsley & Vereen, all B1G quality players.

The sex scandal you refer to happened after Mason had been long-gone and that Brewster character was supposed to be minding the shop and in charge of the players. He was asleep at the wheel. You brewball apologists are all the same. He failed the day he was given the job by badger joel macturi. You people spin and spin and the only people you fool is yourselves.

That Brewster character will forever represent total incompetence and he had a grand total of six Big Ten wins. He had a shiny new stadium handed to him and only a few Big Ten wins in that shiny new stadium. What a waste. What a case of total failure by that Brewster and that athletic director who hired him . He had nothing else to offer the Football Program that had provided him with that new stadium. He was run out of town in the middle of the Big Ten Season. Even the failed athletic director would not...could not allow him to coach to the end of the season. He had lost the team...he had pretty much destroyed the program and EVERYONE but the brewball apologists were mad as hell and were not going to settle for brewball ANY longer. It was the worst of times to be a Golden Gopher Football Fan. And when that Brewster was thrown under the bus by prexy b and his a. d., not a single tear was shed. Golden Gopher Fans hoped the nightmare had finally ended.

 

[Sparlimb]

Kill DID recruit a QB for his system. Phillip Nelson was perfect for it. As a recruit Leidner was not an important get, no one else really wanted him. Nelson though, boy he was going to be "the man". He was the statement recruit that Kill needed & he stole away from Wisconsin to boot. Then they changed the system from a shotgun based, zone read, to a run heavy, play action offense with Nelson under center which didn't suit him at all. And here we are.

Had to switch to an offense Phillip had a chance to understand, but that didn't work out either.

 

[Sparlimb]

You think Brew left the program in worse shape then he found it? Really? He inherited a sex scandal, a player wanted for armed robbery & a 2007 roster that featured Duran Cooley, Jamal Harris, Daron Love, Desi Steib, Michael McKelton, Todd Meisel, Barret Moen, Steve Moore, Matt Stommes, Sherels & Shevlin. We had 3 legit players on defense in Dom Barber, WVS & Steve Davis.

Rape happened on Brewster's watch, no one else's. Don't blame anyone else for that.

 

[BarnBoy]

Kill should be judged on wins and losses and compared to other B1G coaches' wins and losses.

Recruiting is an input. Wins are an output.

 

[imthewalrus]

Kill should be judged on wins and losses and compared to other B1G coaches' wins and losses.

Recruiting is an input. Wins are an output.

Let's be specific here: Conference wins and losses will allow us to judge Big Ten coaches records against Big Ten Competition. Not the cupcake non-conference teams that appear on the schedule. Only the conference games will give us some meaningful win and loss totals.

 

[Gold Vision]

It's middle of the road, not bottom level. Everyone should know how the damn recruiting rankings work by now. You get docked simply by having a smaller class. There are going to be about 5 teams with real nice classes, Kill will have a class that is comparable with the other teams. You really think Rutgers has a better class than us? 19 players all but 5 are two stars, yet rivals ranks them tied for 9th while we are 13th. By the way for 5 years from 2009 to 2013 Wisconsin finished in the bottom half of the b1g (with the new teams included), including a couple 13th place finishes. It's damn near impossible to recruit among the best in the big ten right now, but you can still field a consistently strong team without it. Hell most of the starting team right now came from two last place ranked classes.

Currently 11th out of 14 members in points per commit. Ahead of Iowa, Purdue and Rutgers. Not sure how the 20th percentile equates to middle of the road. Thankfully, there's still some time with this class to make up ground.

2014 9/14
2013 11/14
2012 14/14

After doing that research, I do like seeing we are trending up.

 

[Spoofin]

Recruiting is an input. Wins are an output.

I like this. +1