Gopher Fans are crazy to call for Tubby’s head after just 4+ seasons

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savagerube said:
Weak response. Wow! Where's your link to prove that it's BS? Just a ridiculous, weak comeback. Link.. Ha.

But here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Golden_Gophers_men's_basketball

Tell me who the "better" Gopher coaches are?
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L. J. Cooke won a few championships, although I'd be lying if I said I knew what they were.

Clem or Dutcher maybe? But can you count coaches who both had to leave due to NCAA violations?

Mussleman maybe? But a brawl, assault charges on your players, and striking a player as well as NCAA violations may take him out of the running too.

Tubby Smith is one of the best Gopher coach who never cheated except for maybe Cooke, who coached from 1896 - 1924. I think Monson may be third best.

Not a pretty picture.
 

savagerube said:
Weak response. Wow! Where's your link to prove that it's BS? Just a ridiculous, weak comeback. Link.. Ha.

But here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Golden_Gophers_men's_basketball

Tell me who the "better" Gopher coaches are?
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Just did a quick check on your provided link. There were 42 seasons where the gophers had a winning conference record. None of them were under Tubby Smith.

Prior to 1975 only one conference team could go to the dance.

Prior to 1939 there was no ncaa tournament.

You can not use ncaa tournament appearances to compare all-time coaches
 


station19 said:
Link?

If 6-8 Big Ten teams went to the dance every year in the history of the Gopher program your argument might hold water. As it is, it has no bearing.

BTW Tubby is 37-47 in Big Ten play.
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Actually, it holds quite a lot of water. If you go by modern standards (i.e., finishing with a good overall record and being at or above .500 in conference play), Gopher coaches since 1939 would've had the following resume (records since 1985 are actual and not hypothetical due to the tournament expanding to 64 teams in 1985):

Tubby Smith - 2 in 5 seasons (presumed) (.400)
Jim Molinari - 0 in 1 season (.000)
Dan Monson - 1 in 8 seasons (.125)
Clem Haskins - 2 in 13 seasons (.154)
Jimmy Williams - 0 in 1 seasons (.000)
Jim Dutcher - 5 in 11 seasons (.455) - (1978, 1980-83)
Bill Musselman - 3 in 4 seasons (.750) - (1972, 1973, 1975)
George Hanson - 0 in 1 season (.000)
Bill Fitch - 0 in 2 seasons (.000)
John Kundla - 2 in 9 seasons (.222) - (1964, 1965)
Ozzie Cowles - 6 in 11 seasons (.545) - (1949, 1952-55, 1957)
Dave McMillan - 4 in 7 seasons (.571) - (1939, 1942, 1946, 1947)
Weston Mitchell - 0 in 1 season (.000)
Carl Nordy - 0 in 2 seasons (.000)

Since the NCAA Tournament began in 1939, there have been 14 Gophers interim and full-time head coaches. Of those 14, Tubby ranks 5th in frequency of real/hypothetical tournament appearances behind Musselman, McMillan, Cowles, and Dutcher. Since Musselman and Dutcher were both cheaters, they shouldn't count. Thus, by frequency of real/hypothetical tournament appearances, Tubby is 3rd all-time, and is one of the best Gophers coaches ever, by default, just as I stated.
 


station19 said:
Just did a quick check on your provided link. There were 42 seasons where the gophers had a winning conference record. None of them were under Tubby Smith.

Prior to 1975 only one conference team could go to the dance.

Prior to 1939 there was no ncaa tournament.

You can not use ncaa tournament appearances to compare all-time coaches
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It's a fair argument but even if you look the "modern" era (post 1985 64 team field) Tubby still has the most NCAA appearances.

As far as pre 1975, the Gophers still rank 9th in the B1G in tourney appearances. Again, very little history.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Actually, it holds quite a lot of water. If you go by modern standards (i.e., finishing with a good overall record and being at or above .500 in conference play), Gopher coaches since 1939 would've had the following resume (records since 1985 are actual and not hypothetical due to the tournament expanding to 64 teams in 1985):

Tubby Smith - 2 in 5 seasons (presumed) (.400)
Jim Molinari - 0 in 1 season (.000)
Dan Monson - 1 in 8 seasons (.125)
Clem Haskins - 2 in 13 seasons (.154)
Jimmy Williams - 0 in 1 seasons (.000)
Jim Dutcher - 5 in 11 seasons (.455) - (1978, 1980-83)
Bill Musselman - 3 in 4 seasons (.750) - (1972, 1973, 1975)
George Hanson - 0 in 1 season (.000)
Bill Fitch - 0 in 2 seasons (.000)
John Kundla - 2 in 9 seasons (.222) - (1964, 1965)
Ozzie Cowles - 6 in 11 seasons (.545) - (1949, 1952-55, 1957)
Dave McMillan - 4 in 7 seasons (.571) - (1939, 1942, 1946, 1947)
Weston Mitchell - 0 in 1 season (.000)
Carl Nordy - 0 in 2 seasons (.000)

Since the NCAA Tournament began in 1939, there have been 14 Gophers interim and full-time head coaches. Of those 14, Tubby ranks 5th in frequency of real/hypothetical tournament appearances behind Musselman, McMillan, Cowles, and Dutcher. Since Musselman and Dutcher were both cheaters, they shouldn't count. Thus, by frequency of real/hypothetical tournament appearances, Tubby is 3rd all-time, and is one of the best Gophers coaches ever, by default, just as I stated.
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If you say so.

And oh btw, when did you decide the only measure was tournament appearances.

Ranking all-time coaches on the basis of tournament appearances is BS, just as I stated.
 

station19 said:
If you say so.

And oh btw, when did you decide the only measure was tournament appearances.

Ranking all-time coaches on the basis of tournament appearances is BS, just as I stated.
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How else would you care to do it? National championships? Big Ten championships? Overall winning percentage? Big Ten winning percentage? Tubby is toward the top in the non-cheater category in all of those too.
 

dpodoll68 said:
How else would you care to do it? National championships? Big Ten championships? Overall winning percentage? Big Ten winning percentage? Tubby is toward the top in the non-cheater category in all of those too.
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I suppose there would be many factors that could be used. Point being I said BS to your 'original statement'. Since then you have gone on and on to try and prove why your opinion should be fact.

Get over yourself.
 



scher215 said:
Where do you think the program was before Tubby? Honest question to get a better understanding of what "elevate" mean? Did you expect Tubby to go from a 9-22 Monson squad to sweet 16's and final fours in five year? If so, I think you will be demanding a coaching change quite often with many different guys.

Building a program to the level of MSU, tOSU, etc takes much more than 5 years and 1 coach. It takes coaches gradually improving over each other, a series of good to great coaching hires, some good luck, a monetary commitment, and finally the big hire that gets the program to elite status (Izzo, Knight, Coach K, Rupp, etc.). Just because the Gophers hired Tubby Smith doesn't mean we can bypass that whole process. It doesn't happen in 5 years and 1 coach. It just doesn't. Anywhere. Duke didn't become Duke in 5 years. UK didn't happen in 5 years. Everytime in history MN has gained momentum we have something go wrong in the process. Whether it be the snow storm that sent John Wooden to UCLA, one of the 3 scandals, no monetray commitment, or player transfering. This isn't unique to Minnesota. There is a reason so few school are at the MSU, tOSU, Duke, UNC level. It takes a lot of things going right from recruiting classes to coaches to AD's to scandals, to luck, etc. And it is very rare that all of that works well over a 20 year period minimum. Even Wisconsin is closer than Minnesota and that didn't happen because they hired Bo Ryan, it happened because they brought in a successful coach, the next coach built on that, and then Bo built on that. They made a commitment financially, they had no major NCAA violations, etc.
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I decided to look into the program that Bo Ryan inherited in comparison to the one that Tubby Smith inherited just in terms of win % in the Big Ten. Here is are the facts:
Dick Bennett Last 5 Years: .463 Bo Ryan First 5 Years: .785 Change: +.322
Dan Monson Last 5 Years: .438 Tubby Smith First 5 Years: .440 Change: +.002
Dick Bennett and Dan Monson were two games apart in their final 5 years but for some reason history is being rewritten...
 

savagerube;506679[B said:
]It's a fair argument but even if you look the "modern" era[/B] (post 1985 64 team field) Tubby still has the most NCAA appearances.

As far as pre 1975, the Gophers still rank 9th in the B1G in tourney appearances. Again, very little history.
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Why did this discussion go from all-time to 'modern era'? Modern era 1985? OMG.
 

goldengophers said:
I decided to look into the program that Bo Ryan inherited in comparison to the one that Tubby Smith inherited just in terms of win % in the Big Ten. Here is are the facts:
Dick Bennett Last 5 Years: .463 Bo Ryan First 5 Years: .785 Change: +.322
Dan Monson Last 5 Years: .438 Tubby Smith First 5 Years: .440 Change: +.002
Dick Bennett and Dan Monson were two games apart in their final 5 years but for some reason history is being rewritten...
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Dick Bennett made it to the final four. You don't think that there was some momentum that carried over in Bo's tenure? Thus indirectly helping Bo's results and recruiting? Also, as I've said before on here, don't think that 06-07 3-13 B1G should play some part into Monson's overall numbers?
 

station19 said:
Why did this discussion go from all-time to 'modern era'? Modern era 1985? OMG.
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Yeah modern era NCAA tournament. The NCAA converted to 64 teams in 1985. If you read the previous posts, it was concluded that it's unfair to compare the historical success of coaches since the tournament has changed significantly. As a result, the modern era is post 1985 because the current NCAA tournament is virtually the same as it was in '85. The only difference is that there are now 68 teams. Does that make sense now?

And what's with OMG? This isn't a Justin Bieber or a Suite life of Zack and Cody forum.
 



station19 said:
If you say so.

And oh btw, when did you decide the only measure was tournament appearances.

Ranking all-time coaches on the basis of tournament appearances is BS, just as I stated.
Click to expand...

What do you base it on? Winning percentage? Then it even helps Tubby's cause even more.
 

savagerube said:
Dick Bennett made it to the final four. You don't think that there was some momentum that carried over in Bo's tenure? Thus indirectly helping Bo's results and recruiting? Also, as I've said before on here, don't think that 06-07 3-13 B1G should play some part into Monson's overall numbers?
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Tubby won a National Championship and was known by every potential D1 recruit nationwide...to only be .002 win % points ahead of Monson is failing. Dick Bennett also when 3-13 in his 3rd to last Big Ten season just as you mention Monson did. Not to mention that Tubby leaned most heavily on two Monson recruits the last 4 years. Interpret the rest of the facts I mentioned and then get back to me.
 

savagerube said:
Yeah modern era NCAA tournament. The NCAA converted to 64 teams in 1985. If you read the previous posts, it was concluded that it's unfair to compare the historical success of coaches since the tournament has changed significantly. As a result, the modern era is post 1985 because the current NCAA tournament is virtually the same as it was in '85. The only difference is that there are now 68 teams. Does that make sense now?

And what's with OMG? This isn't a Justin Bieber or a Suite life of Zack and Cody forum.
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This discussion started with 'all-time coaches', not coaches since 1985.

OMG ........The Gophers have been playing with a coach since 1897, not 1985.

There are many changing variables when trying to compare all-time greatest. Tournament appearances is not a good one.

Conference records is the best I can think of. Out of 42 winning records Tubby has none. Does that make him a bad coach, no but it doesn't automatically put him at or near the top either.
 

goldengophers said:
Tubby won a National Championship and was known by every potential D1 recruit nationwide...to only be .002 win % points ahead of Monson is failing. Not to mention that Tubby leaned most heavily on two Monson recruits the last 4 years. Interpret the rest of the facts I mentioned and then get back to me.
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Relied heavily on Hoff? I agree. Al Nolan? He didn't play the second half of his Junior/Senior year? You completely changed the subject? Answer the question: Is there a benefit to coming into a program where within the previous two years, the program went to the Final Four? It's hard to interpret your facts when you change the subject.

You're right, Tubby is known nationwide. The Gophers would be lucky to get another coach with the name recognition nationwide. Lastly, Monson got 8 years to prove himself. Go ahead and fire Tubby after year 8 if he ends up like Monson. Monson had sanctions against him and we ALL know that. However, his last 3 years were ALL him.
 

savagerube said:
Relied heavily on Hoff? I agree. Al Nolan? He didn't play the second half of his Junior/Senior year? You completely changed the subject? Answer the question: Is there a benefit to coming into a program where within the previous two years, the program went to the Final Four? It's hard to interpret your facts when you change the subject.

You're right, Tubby is known nationwide. The Gophers would be lucky to get another coach with the name recognition nationwide.
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I updated to include Dick Bennett went 3-13 in his 3rd to last season.
Last three years:
Bennett 20-28
Monson 18-30
Like I have said any old Mid Major coach can be expected to achieve what Tubby had thus far.
 

goldengophers said:
Tubby won a National Championship and was known by every potential D1 recruit nationwide...to only be .002 win % points ahead of Monson is failing. Dick Bennett also when 3-13 in his 3rd to last Big Ten season just as you mention Monson did. Not to mention that Tubby leaned most heavily on two Monson recruits the last 4 years. Interpret the rest of the facts I mentioned and then get back to me.
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Almost every single commit and even most of the recruits considering Minnesota, have said Tubby is the big reason.
 

zambam said:
Almost every single commit and even most of the recruits considering Minnesota, have said Tubby is the big reason.
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Great since 2009 it's all been three star recruits, winning is the game.
 

goldengophers said:
I updated to include Dick Bennett went 3-13 in his 3rd to last season.
Last three years:
Bennett 20-28
Monson 18-30
Like I have said any old Mid Major coach can be expected to achieve what Tubby had thus far.
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I will take a line from you, "Just another lame distraction..." DICK BENNETT WENT TO THE FINAL 4! Dick Bennett, Like Barry Alvarez, put Wisconsin basketball on the Map! You pick out the one year, yes one year, that Dick Bennett didn't go to the post season. This is a distraction technique at its finest. If you were a coach, you rather A) Follow Dick Bennett, or B) Follow Dan Monson/Jim Molinari?
 

savagerube said:
I will take a line from you, "Just another lame distraction..." DICK BENNETT WENT TO THE FINAL 4! Dick Bennett, Like Barry Alvarez, put Wisconsin basketball on the Map! You pick out the one year, yes one year, that Dick Bennett didn't go to the post season. This is a distraction technique at its finest.
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Just for future reference, in debate terms "distraction technique" is called a red herring.
 

savagerube said:
I will take a line from you, "Just another lame distraction..." DICK BENNETT WENT TO THE FINAL 4! Dick Bennett, Like Barry Alvarez, put Wisconsin basketball on the Map! You pick out the one year, yes one year, that Dick Bennett didn't go to the post season. This is a distraction technique at its finest. If you were a coach, you rather A) Follow Dick Bennett, or B) Follow Dan Monson/Jim Molinari?
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A future HOF coach paid like Tubby was should more than make up for a Badger Final Four run. Alvarez was also over .500 in conference over his career...What you're saying is Tubby should have gone to George Mason.
 

goldengophers said:
A future HOF coach paid like Tubby was should more than make up for a Badger Final Four run. Alvarez was also over .500 in conference over his career...What you're saying is Tubby should have gone to George Mason.
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Tubby's salary is in the middle of the B1G so let's stay within the facts. Secondly, you expect a previously sub-par program at best to completely turn it around in 5 years? A program that has been riddled with sanctions and has had a majority of their success wiped clean by the NCAA; a same program that has gotten past the Sweet Sixteen twice (once according to the NCAA). The Minnesota Job is extremely tough. Monson comes here after an Elite 8 with Gonzaga, leaves here and is undefeated in the Mountain West. We need stability. Your boy Kaler understands building a foundation; he understands that we need consistency. If he didn't believe in this, he wouldn't of extended Jerry Kill in the middle of 1st season coaching here. Your profile picture is Kaler and I agree, "In Kaler we trust." According to Reusse, the two year extension is in place as we speak. In Kaler we trust indeed. The last thing the program needs is a revolving door. We all know that if it was Devoe/Royce/Mbakwe/Rodney/Mo Walker, we would all be singing a different tune. That shows you that Tubby is capable of doing it. That's more proof of potential than any incoming candidate could provide at this point.
 

goldengophers said:
Tubby won a National Championship and was known by every potential D1 recruit nationwide...to only be .002 win % points ahead of Monson is failing. Dick Bennett also when 3-13 in his 3rd to last Big Ten season just as you mention Monson did. Not to mention that Tubby leaned most heavily on two Monson recruits the last 4 years. Interpret the rest of the facts I mentioned and then get back to me.
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Virtually every coach coming to a new program relies heavily on players recruited by the former coach. You could also say Bo Ryan relied heavily on Kirk Penney and Devin Harris who were Dick Bennett recruits.
 

GophersInIowa said:
Virtually every coach coming to a new program relies heavily on players recruited by the former coach. You could also say Bo Ryan relied heavily on Kirk Penney and Devin Harris who were Dick Bennett recruits.
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You and your logic aren't welcome here!
 

savagerube said:
Tubby's salary is in the middle of the B1G so let's stay within the facts. Secondly, you expect a previously sub-par program at best to completely turn it around in 5 years? A program that has been riddled with sanctions and has had a majority of their success wiped clean by the NCAA; a same program that has gotten past the Sweet Sixteen twice (once according to the NCAA). The Minnesota Job is extremely tough. Monson comes here after an Elite 8 with Gonzaga, leaves here and is undefeated in the Mountain West. We need stability. Your boy Kaler understands building a foundation; he understands that we need consistency. If he didn't believe in this, he wouldn't of extended Jerry Kill in the middle of 1st season coaching here. Your profile picture is Kaler and I agree, "In Kaler we trust." The last thing the program needs is a revolving door. We all know that if it was Devoe/Royce/Mbakwe/Rodney/Mo Walker, we would all be signing a different tune. That shows you that Tubby is capable of doing it. That's more proof of potential than any incoming candidate could provide at this point.
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I think it can be done in five years (or even sooner), but you have to have a lot of things go right.

Has Tubby been a disappointment so far? Yep
Have we had some bad luck? Yep

We're a rebuilding program. When we have players leave and/or get injured, its tough to rebuild. I don't know if Tubby will succeed here or not, but I would like to see what he can do without a bunch of transfers and injuries.
 

GophersInIowa said:
I think it can be done in five years (or even sooner), but you have to have a lot of things go right.

Has Tubby been a disappointment so far? Yep
Have we had some bad luck? Yep

We're a rebuilding program. When we have players leave and/or get injured, its tough to rebuild. I don't know if Tubby will succeed here or not, but I would like to see what he can do without a bunch of transfers and injuries.
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I hear ya. It depends on what turning a program around really means and that's where a lot of us fans differ.
 

savagerube said:
Tubby's salary is in the middle of the B1G so let's stay within the facts. Secondly, you expect a previously sub-par program at best to completely turn it around in 5 years? A program that has been riddled with sanctions and has had a majority of their success wiped clean by the NCAA; a same program that has gotten past the Sweet Sixteen twice (once according to the NCAA). The Minnesota Job is extremely tough. Monson comes here after an Elite 8 with Gonzaga, leaves here and is undefeated in the Mountain West. We need stability. Your boy Kaler understands building a foundation; he understands that we need consistency. If he didn't believe in this, he wouldn't of extended Jerry Kill in the middle of 1st season coaching here. Your profile picture is Kaler and I agree, "In Kaler we trust." According to Reusse, the two year extension is in place as we speak. In Kaler we trust indeed. The last thing the program needs is a revolving door. We all know that if it was Devoe/Royce/Mbakwe/Rodney/Mo Walker, we would all be singing a different tune. That shows you that Tubby is capable of doing it. That's more proof of potential than any incoming candidate could provide at this point.
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The Mountain West is a real conference. Monson does not coach in a real conference. He coaches in the Big West.
 

Assume for a minute that Smith is a HOF coach -- one of the best ever -- one who has the experience, credibility, and skills to at least improve a college basketball program if not make it a conference contender. And remember, we thought that when he was hired. Since that hasn't happened here, you have to either dismiss that assumption or find some other explanation for our lack of improvement and distance from conference contention. Since we have been about an average Big10 team for decades (except for brief periods when we either recruited disreputable characters or cheated academically) it seems to me our analysis ought to focus on what is wrong with the environment at the U rather than what is wrong with Smith.
 

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