Gopher Fans are crazy to call for Tubby’s head after just 4+ seasons

[GopherGod]

Tubby made the dance two of his first three years, right? He did maintain it. Tubby maintaned it until the flood of transfers and injuries; he's to blame for Cobbs but not for Royce and Devoe-- they broke team rules just like the recent Purdue situation. Should Matt Painter be blamed for one of his players getting into a bar fight? Of course not. Parents have a hard time controlling their 18-year-olds, why should a coach take blame for an idiot like Royce when he stole ipods and laptops? What would Indiana be without Zeller? They would be the Gophers without Mbakwe.

Yet Devoe hasn't gotten into any trouble since leaving and neither has Royce, so maybe part of the problem is that they didn't respect Tubby enough to follow the rules or he failed to get the message across. Tubby needs to at least take some of the blame for the huge flood of transfers. He also is responsible for failing to recruit depth so that the team doesn't collapse two years in a row due to one injury. Funny you mention Painter because he did recruit enough quality depth that he lost his best player two years in a row and still made the tourney. How can you say Tubby maintained when you go from the tourney to not making it two years in a row?

 

[gopher000]

Transfers can really really set a program back Minnesota is a great example, an even better example UCLA.

 

[BOUNDOUTPASSDUNK]

First of all can we agree that this thread is well argued and based upon a shared goal to improve the BB program notwithstanding differient opinions?

I do personally find the reference to IU and Crean to be relevant to the discussion. Crean did inherit chaos, similar to Tubby taking on the mess left by Monson/Maturi. Where IU and MN diverge is over commitment to their basketball programs, tradition and Indiana being a state rich with talent. To be successful in MN, Tubby has to lock up the best talent the state of MN can offer, which as noted in other threads can be broad in numbers but not deep in quality.

Contrast IU's incoming 2012 class. Per ESPN, IU has three 4* and one 3* recruit homegrown in IU. I'm not saying it's that way every year, but be realistic, IU's Crean has more talent in his backyard year to year.

Thus for ANY Gopher coach to be top half of the B10, he must have a good crop of 1 to maybe 2 or 3 in state recruits (sometimes none) who are supplemented by program holdovers and out of state gems.

Tubby brought in Royce and Rodney, two top shelf MN prospects, but not elite. He supplemented by convincing Trevor to return home, RSIII and Devoe Joseph from Ontario. When recruited, Tubby certainly knew that RSIII would be most successful as a high post center who would work well with a low post PF, e.g., Royce or later Trevor. The talent had been recruited, it just sadly wasn't able to grow together, as the depth was not there. The well documented injuries and behavioral attrition took its toll and left the program without sufficent talent as Tubby scrambled to recruit reinforcements. Also, don't put the behavioral attrition on Tubby necessarily. Few of us know the true details, but rest assured that Maturi's look back to the Ganglegate era caused him to be cautious to a fault when it came to imposing discipline.

Thus in contrast to Crean and IU, where the rich history and resources make in state recruiting a task of organization rather than persuasion, here at MN, with outdated facilities and a more challenging talent base, locking up the in state blue chips becomes essential and not a foregone conclusion.

For those of us who watched last night's MSU game, Tubby had a very interested spectator behind him and the Gopher bench, a Mr. T. Jones, who watched the game earnestly. Do Gopher fans really believe that we have a better shot at Mr. Jones and Mr. Vaughn by changing coaches now? Is it unrealistic to think that Tubby would talk to Tyus and reinforce how energized the building was against MSU when the Gophers lead and why a point guard like him would close down games for MN! Tubby has followed the young man and built a sincere relationship with him and the family since the 5th grade.

Thus I ask that the focus of this board consider we are in this together, we don't improve without the practice facility, without which we will continue to be perceived as the tired, underfunded program, that change for change sake is not always beneficial and give the program time to recover from attrition. Next year WILL be better.

 

[gopher000]

Yet Devoe hasn't gotten into any trouble since leaving and neither has Royce, so maybe part of the problem is that they didn't respect Tubby enough to follow the rules or he failed to get the message across. Tubby needs to at least take some of the blame for the huge flood of transfers. He also is responsible for failing to recruit depth so that the team doesn't collapse two years in a row due to one injury. Funny you mention Painter because he did recruit enough quality depth that he lost his best player two years in a row and still made the tourney. How can you say Tubby maintained when you go from the tourney to not making it two years in a row?

Thats a HUGE reach about ROyce not respecting Tubby enough to not follow the rules? You cannot say someone tried to shoplift then pushed the security guard when confronted and that lack of respect for his BASKETBALL COACH was partly to blame for the incident. Thats beyond ridicoulous

 

[gopher000]

Royce was 5* he was definetely an elite prospect on the national level

 

[gopher000]

For those of us who watched last night's MSU game, Tubby had a very interested spectator behind him and the Gopher bench, a Mr. T. Jones, who watched the game earnestly. Do Gopher fans really believe that we have a better shot at Mr. Jones and Mr. Vaughn by changing coaches now? Is it unrealistic to think that Tubby would talk to Tyus and reinforce how energized the building was against MSU when the Gophers lead and why a point guard like him would close down games for MN! Tubby has followed the young man and built a sincere relationship with him and the family since the 5th grade.

i 100% agree
Thus I ask that the focus of this board consider we are in this together, we don't improve without the practice facility, without which we will continue to be perceived as the tired, underfunded program, that change for change sake is not always beneficial and give the program time to recover from attrition. Next year WILL be better.[/QUOTE]

 

[GopherGod]

Thats a HUGE reach about ROyce not respecting Tubby enough to not follow the rules? You cannot say someone tried to shoplift then pushed the security guard when confronted and that lack of respect for his BASKETBALL COACH was partly to blame for the incident. Thats beyond ridicoulous

I never said it was a fact yet another coach has gotten him to behave as well as Devoe. Tubby clearly couldn't get the message across to Royce to stay out of trouble after the first incident and before the laptop incident. What are you theories on why Tubby has such a high amount of transfers? I acknowledge it may be a huge reach, just trying to figure why Tubby has repeatedly failed with players that other coaches have succeeded with, on the court and off. Is it a lack of respect, communication, or both?

 

[GopherGod]

First of all can we agree that this thread is well argued and based upon a shared goal to improve the BB program notwithstanding differient opinions?

I do personally find the reference to IU and Crean to be relevant to the discussion. Crean did inherit chaos, similar to Tubby taking on the mess left by Monson/Maturi. Where IU and MN diverge is over commitment to their basketball programs, tradition and Indiana being a state rich with talent. To be successful in MN, Tubby has to lock up the best talent the state of MN can offer, which as noted in other threads can be broad in numbers but not deep in quality.

Contrast IU's incoming 2012 class. Per ESPN, IU has three 4* and one 3* recruit homegrown in IU. I'm not saying it's that way every year, but be realistic, IU's Crean has more talent in his backyard year to year.

Thus for ANY Gopher coach to be top half of the B10, he must have a good crop of 1 to maybe 2 or 3 in state recruits (sometimes none) who are supplemented by program holdovers and out of state gems.

Tubby brought in Royce and Rodney, two top shelf MN prospects, but not elite. He supplemented by convincing Trevor to return home, RSIII and Devoe Joseph from Ontario. When recruited, Tubby certainly knew that RSIII would be most successful as a high post center who would work well with a low post PF, e.g., Royce or later Trevor. The talent had been recruited, it just sadly wasn't able to grow together, as the depth was not there. The well documented injuries and behavioral attrition took its toll and left the program without sufficent talent as Tubby scrambled to recruit reinforcements. Also, don't put the behavioral attrition on Tubby necessarily. Few of us know the true details, but rest assured that Maturi's look back to the Ganglegate era caused him to be cautious to a fault when it came to imposing discipline.

Thus in contrast to Crean and IU, where the rich history and resources make in state recruiting a task of organization rather than persuasion, here at MN, with outdated facilities and a more challenging talent base, locking up the in state blue chips becomes essential and not a foregone conclusion.

For those of us who watched last night's MSU game, Tubby had a very interested spectator behind him and the Gopher bench, a Mr. T. Jones, who watched the game earnestly. Do Gopher fans really believe that we have a better shot at Mr. Jones and Mr. Vaughn by changing coaches now? Is it unrealistic to think that Tubby would talk to Tyus and reinforce how energized the building was against MSU when the Gophers lead and why a point guard like him would close down games for MN! Tubby has followed the young man and built a sincere relationship with him and the family since the 5th grade.

Thus I ask that the focus of this board consider we are in this together, we don't improve without the practice facility, without which we will continue to be perceived as the tired, underfunded program, that change for change sake is not always beneficial and give the program time to recover from attrition. Next year WILL be better.

I agree Indiana has more in-state talent but IU also has to compete against several other successful Division 1 programs in the state while Minnesota does not, so not a foregone conclusion for IU to get whomever they want in-state.

 

[station19]

I'd be curious to know how Jolt'n Joel views Tubby's tenure to this point.

 

[gopher000]

I never said it was a fact yet another coach has gotten him to behave as well as Devoe. Tubby clearly couldn't get the message across to Royce to stay out of trouble after the first incident and before the laptop incident. What are you theories on why Tubby has such a high amount of transfers?

It shouldn't be anyone's job to tell an 18 year old not to shoplift. and the Laptop incident was a joke, Royce was 100% getting singled out there, Why was there an investigation on a laptop they went briefly missing and then re appeared? If I came home and my laptop was gone and I went to report it stolen and then I came back and it was there, it would be case closed. Yes Royce shouldn't of been in that dorm at all but the investigation was him getting picked on.

 

[BOUNDOUTPASSDUNK]

The reports are that Royce had depression issues, not of Tubby's making, that contributed to the juvenile choices that got Royce in trouble. The question is whether the program was able to counsel Royce, determine the source of the problem, rather than blindly imposing discipline. I argue that driving Royce out ultimately fell in the lap of the AD. BTW, the line I was drawing as elite talent was top 10, granted Royce was top 25, the best that MN had seen in years, which is my point about that lack of consistent elite talent. IU's Zeller? You guessed it, born and raised in Indiana.

 

[savagerube]

First of all can we agree that this thread is well argued and based upon a shared goal to improve the BB program notwithstanding differient opinions?

I do personally find the reference to IU and Crean to be relevant to the discussion. Crean did inherit chaos, similar to Tubby taking on the mess left by Monson/Maturi. Where IU and MN diverge is over commitment to their basketball programs, tradition and Indiana being a state rich with talent. To be successful in MN, Tubby has to lock up the best talent the state of MN can offer, which as noted in other threads can be broad in numbers but not deep in quality.

Contrast IU's incoming 2012 class. Per ESPN, IU has three 4* and one 3* recruit homegrown in IU. I'm not saying it's that way every year, but be realistic, IU's Crean has more talent in his backyard year to year.

Thus for ANY Gopher coach to be top half of the B10, he must have a good crop of 1 to maybe 2 or 3 in state recruits (sometimes none) who are supplemented by program holdovers and out of state gems.

Tubby brought in Royce and Rodney, two top shelf MN prospects, but not elite. He supplemented by convincing Trevor to return home, RSIII and Devoe Joseph from Ontario. When recruited, Tubby certainly knew that RSIII would be most successful as a high post center who would work well with a low post PF, e.g., Royce or later Trevor. The talent had been recruited, it just sadly wasn't able to grow together, as the depth was not there. The well documented injuries and behavioral attrition took its toll and left the program without sufficent talent as Tubby scrambled to recruit reinforcements. Also, don't put the behavioral attrition on Tubby necessarily. Few of us know the true details, but rest assured that Maturi's look back to the Ganglegate era caused him to be cautious to a fault when it came to imposing discipline.

Thus in contrast to Crean and IU, where the rich history and resources make in state recruiting a task of organization rather than persuasion, here at MN, with outdated facilities and a more challenging talent base, locking up the in state blue chips becomes essential and not a foregone conclusion.

For those of us who watched last night's MSU game, Tubby had a very interested spectator behind him and the Gopher bench, a Mr. T. Jones, who watched the game earnestly. Do Gopher fans really believe that we have a better shot at Mr. Jones and Mr. Vaughn by changing coaches now? Is it unrealistic to think that Tubby would talk to Tyus and reinforce how energized the building was against MSU when the Gophers lead and why a point guard like him would close down games for MN! Tubby has followed the young man and built a sincere relationship with him and the family since the 5th grade.

Thus I ask that the focus of this board consider we are in this together, we don't improve without the practice facility, without which we will continue to be perceived as the tired, underfunded program, that change for change sake is not always beneficial and give the program time to recover from attrition. Next year WILL be better.

Very insightful post. I agree 100%

 

[GopherGod]

It shouldn't be anyone's job to tell an 18 year old not to shoplift. and the Laptop incident was a joke, Royce was 100% getting singled out there, Why was there an investigation on a laptop they went briefly missing and then re appeared? If I came home and my laptop was gone and I went to report it stolen and then I came back and it was there, it would be case closed. Yes Royce shouldn't of been in that dorm at all but the investigation was him getting picked on.

Why does Tubby repeatedly fail with players on and off the court that are successful elsewhere, just curious to hear your thoughts? Is it a lack of respect, poor communication with Tubby, or both?

 

[goldengophers]

No one can fault Tubby for Royce, bad and unfortunate set of choices by a young guy.

 

[gopher000]

Why does Tubby repeatedly fail with players on and off the court that are successful elsewhere, just curious to hear your thoughts? Is it a lack of respect, poor communication with Tubby, or both?

There's no way for us to know what goes into the off the court stuff with Tubby and his players so its not worth a guess.

 

[GopherGod]

The reports are that Royce had depression issues, not of Tubby's making, that contributed to the juvenile choices that got Royce in trouble. The question is whether the program was able to counsel Royce, determine the source of the problem, rather than blindly imposing discipline. I argue that driving Royce out ultimately fell in the lap of the AD. BTW, the line I was drawing as elite talent was top 10, granted Royce was top 25, the best that MN had seen in years, which is my point about that lack of consistent elite talent. IU's Zeller? You guessed it, born and raised in Indiana.

You do realize that the two other Zeller brothers went to North Carolina and Notre Dame. All 3 were Mr. Basketball in Indiana so IU only got 1/3 so not a foregone conclusion that IU gets who they want in Indiana. IU has more in-state competition than the Gophers.

 

[GopherGod]

There's no way for us to know what goes into the off the court stuff with Tubby and his players so its not worth a guess.

We don't know the exact cause but we do know that regardless of the cause(s) that there is a problem somewhere because Tubby is losing players at an alarming rate. Then factor in that his former players are also succeeding at a higher level on the court then they ever achieved under Tubby.

 

[savagerube]

Yet Devoe hasn't gotten into any trouble since leaving and neither has Royce, so maybe part of the problem is that they didn't respect Tubby enough to follow the rules or he failed to get the message across. Tubby needs to at least take some of the blame for the huge flood of transfers. He also is responsible for failing to recruit depth so that the team doesn't collapse two years in a row due to one injury. Funny you mention Painter because he did recruit enough quality depth that he lost his best player two years in a row and still made the tourney. How can you say Tubby maintained when you go from the tourney to not making it two years in a row?

Tubby recruited depth as well, but the depth either transferred or got injured. Some fail to remember that Devoe was the national high school player or the year his senior year in Canada; Devron Bostick was the national junior college player of the year; Royce was top 25 talent; Mo Walker was a top 150 player. We all know about Mbakwe and Rodney and the importance of the recruiting. It's a lot of "what ifs" and I'm aware of that. Painter had depth, no doubt. However, Jajuan Johnson=Trevor Mbakwe; Robbie Hummel=Royce White; Etwaan Moore=Devoe Joseph. Tubby had it but unfortunately it didn't pan out. However, initially the depth was there.

 

[scher215]

Nm

 

[GopherGod]

No one can fault Tubby for Royce, bad and unfortunate set of choices by a young guy.

And that was not my intent if it came across that way. I am just intrigued as to why these guys are performing better off and on the court away from tubby. I don't blame tubby for Royce shoplifting, just wish he could have reached him and got him to see the light.

 

[GopherGod]

It's easier to achieve when you don't waste any energy playing defense or have to worry about them playing defense on you.

The big 10 is the best conference in the country. It's a little harder than the pac12.

And you have no idea what Royce would have done under Tubby. He assaulted a security guard. Considering Trevor did well though, I'd assume Royce would have too.

The differences between the PAC 12 and the Big 10 isn't as great as you would like it to be to make your point. You would think that it was like the jump from high school to college ball the way you talk.

 

[GopherGod]

Tubby recruited depth as well, but the depth either transferred or got injured. Some fail to remember that Devoe was the national high school player or the year his senior year in Canada; Devron Bostick was the national junior college player of the year; Royce was top 25 talent; Mo Walker was a top 150 player. We all know about Mbakwe and Rodney and the importance of the recruiting. It's a lot of "what ifs" and I'm aware of that. Painter had depth, no doubt. However, Jajuan Johnson=Trevor Mbakwe; Robbie Hummel=Royce White; Etwaan Moore=Devoe Joseph. Tubby had it but unfortunately it didn't pan out. However, initially the depth was there.

Whose fault is it that his depth transferred or didn't pan out? It is his job to evaluate the character and athletic ability of his recruits. Apparently Painter must be better at this then Tubby is then, at least at this point in their careers.

 

[savagerube]

Whose fault is it that his depth transferred or didn't pan out? It is his job to evaluate the character and athletic ability of his recruits. Apparently Painter must be better at this then Tubby is then, at least at this point in their careers.

It's Royce White and Devoe Joseph's fault but I obviously have nothing to back that up with, but they're the only ones that dictate their actions. I think a lot of us can relate to the fact that we do dumb things in college. It's not just the average Joe's that make bad decisions, it's also student athletes; TCU this week for example.

 

[zambam]

The differences between the PAC 12 and the Big 10 isn't as great as you would like it to be to make your point. You would think that it was like the jump from high school to college ball the way you talk.

No one is saying that, what they are saying though is that the PAC 12 is not on par with even some of the mid-major conferences like the A10 and Big West.

 

[zubb]

I have a real short list for tubby.

1. Win
2. make sure your players graduate.

 

[BOUNDOUTPASSDUNK]

After Knight left IU, IU was a mess. Thus it took till the third Zeller for one to stay home once the debris was hauled from the IU program. Is there a lesson to be learned? Tubby is still picking up the pieces, even if it does seem prolonged.

 

[GopherGod]

After Knight left IU, IU was a mess. Thus it took till the third Zeller for one to stay home once the debris was hauled from the IU program. Is there a lesson to be learned? Tubby is still picking up the pieces, even if it does seem prolonged.

But you said earlier that because they are IU that it is a foregone conclusion that they get the recruits in-state that they wanted. If this was the case then IU shouldn't have missed a beat after Knight left, yet you just said they were a mess. Maybe it has more to do with Crean and not just because they are IU.

 

[beavergopher]

If Tubby was so great he would still be coaching at Kentucky. He underperformed with the Rolls Royce of b-ball programs. He is a good coach, but not worth 2 million. We lost to a team with a great coach, Tom Izzo, who built his own program up to an elite status. He has taken MSU to six final fours. Tubby won a NC with Pitino's players. How many Final Fours did Tubby take UK to?
Coaches normally get four or five years and then get canned if they are not producing.............like Mr Smith.

 

[howieramone]

He's a 'whiner,' huh? Wow.

I don't have the gumption to post much anymore, but my current feelings can be summed up in nearly every word EG and bga1 type. They are not whiners. They are objective fans, and I thank them for providing the takes they do and taking the time to post them here.

I appreciate it. How can anyone compare EG#9 with bga1?

 

[BreakTheGopherCurse]

Bo Ryan

One of the most disappointing things that has happened over the past two years is the migration of the low expectations crowd from the football board over to the basketball board. It's so pathetic to read these posts excusing poor performance based on history. I guess schools like UConn, Wisconsin, and Baylor should have just closed up shop because Minnesota was a superior program to all 3 historically. I guess Minnesota should be expected to compete for national titles in football with regularity because history shows that very few programs have won 6 of them.

Tubby is 6-21 in his last 27 Big Ten games and 2-10 in his last 12 Big Ten home games. Tubby's best
conference record after 5 years will be WORSE than Bo Ryan's worst conference record in his tenure at Wisconsin.
Tubby was not brought in to Minnesota to go .500 in the conference, much less perform similar to Dan Monson, he was brought in to compete fore conference championships. Thank god, the administration hasn't taken the view of basketball that many have of football or we would have hired a coach for 800K- 1 mil who "understands Minnesota".

I cannot stand the idea that Minnesota should somehow accept not being a Big Ten contender in revenue sports and the "fans" who are willing to accept/justify poor performance are certainly part of the problem.

We're all "cut from different cloth", so certain ideas hit people very differently. What hit me hard was the above posters statement that "Tubby's best conference record after 5 years will be WORSE than Bo Ryan's worst conference record in his tenure at Wisconsin". It seems to me, this fact is far more interesting and relevant than all the earlier discussion about Coach K, etc.

Perhaps we can chew on this one a little bit. It seems unbelievable to me that Wisconsin can hire this guy Bo Ryan from UofW-Milwaukee by-way-of UofW-Platteville and achieve remarkable success while Minneosta hires one of the biggest names in college basketball who is now 6-21 in his last 27 games in the Big Ten.

So, to those of you who are truly students of college basketball (of which I'm not), please answer these questions (I realize these questions call for speculation only, but isn't that what 99% of this board is about. Also, I realize that many of you are highly sarcastic and highly skeptical individuals. So let me clear up one thing to begin with: these are honest and genuine questions the answers to which I'm truly interested in reading. In other words, I'm not "yanking any chains" here):

1. how come Minnesota never seems to end up with a highly successful hire like Bo Ryan, and Wisconsin does? Is it just luck or has Minnesota always sucked at finding or attracting talent?
2. would Bo Ryan have been as successful at the UofM as he has been at Wisconsin (let's try to ignore his personality for sake of this discussion)
3. would Tubby have had more success at Wisconsin than he's had here?
4. is Tubby an inferior basketball coach compared to Bo Ryan, Tom Crean, Tom Izzo, Bill Carmody, et al, at this point in his life (for example, when I watch Northwestern and Michigan State operate in their half-court offenses, in my mind they truly make Minnesota look like a poorly coached team. This has nothing to do with talent and everything to do with intelligent, keen basketball acumen and execution).
5. in the 4 or 5 years of Tubby's recruiting, has he out-recruited Bo Ryan or under-recruited him? what about the other Big Ten coaches? Wouldn't you think he should be getting many of the best players who opt for the Big Ten? Isn't at least 60% or 70% of a recruit's decision based on the head coach?
6. it seems to me that the Gophers lose lots of fairly close games in sort of the same way. does this mean that our coach doesn't recognize what's wrong and therefore has no chance to change it? for example, towards the end of the games (and I think I watch carefully and try to be objective), our guards dribble around a great deal, often times lose the ball, dribble into corners, dribble into triple coverage down along the baseline and over and over and over pick up their dribble. these are things for which high school coaches bench players (not to mention, rarely do I see one of our players roll the proper way after a screen. this is child-stuff. and it does make a difference). or is it that our players are just don't understand the fundamentals of sound basketball and refuse to learn it?

Okay, I hope you guys will answer as few or as many of these questions as you like. Just pick and choose. I'm very interested in hearing what everyone thinks.