Doogie: Tubby missing out on recruits is being underplayed by local media

[Doogie]

Nicely laid out scher215 -

Good to know that the press basically has a "What to Bitch About with Tubby" Checklist.

You know, I'm not asking the local media to be all sunshine and rainbows with Tubby or the Gophs. But a little perspective and balance would be nice. I think some who generally like Souhan, Reusse, Doogie, etc. think we're all just haters, but really I'd just like them to surprise me once in awhile and have them say, "you know what, despite some of the problems/troubles, that was a solid win".

Did you listen? Was on for 20 minutes. Praised Elliott endlessly, and talked about how impressed I was by how hard they played vs. VT. Was plenty positive. Just think the recruits he's missed on is underplayed. Here's the list thanks to my friend, Ryan James.

2012

Marcus Paige – North Carolina

Adam Woodbury – Iowa

AJ Hammons – Purdue

Nick Banyard – New Mexico

Steve Taylor – Marquette

Cameron Biedscheid – Notre Dame



2011

Naadir Tharpe – Kansas

Josh Oglesby – Iowa

Paul Jesperson – Virginia

Travis Trice – Michigan State

TaShawn Thomas – Houston

Trey Burke – Michigan

Ryan Boatright – UCONN

Malcolm Brogdon - Virginia


2010

Corey Joseph – Texas

Vander Blue – Marquette

Trevor Releford – Alabama

Rickey Kreklow – Missouri

Zach McCabe – Iowa

Tim Hardaway – Michigan

Alex Kirk – New Mexico

Ray McCallum – Detroit

Harrison Barnes – North Carolina



2009

Darius Smith – UCONN then juco

Chris Colvin – Iowa State then juco

Eric Bledsoe – Kentucky

Glen Rice – Georgia Tech

Sam Dower – Gonzaga

Andrew Fitzgerald – Oklahoma

Daniel Miller – Georgia Tech

Torin Walker – Oklahoma State

Dan Jennings – West Virginia


2008

Verdell Jones III – Indiana

Krys Faber - DePaul

 

[zambam]

Doogie I think your expectations for Tubby's recruiting are way too high. You list 5-star recruits as if simply being Tubby should get those guys to want to come to a place that has never been able to get them. A step-up in recruiting from the Monson years has already happened. You were clearly expecting a jump-up in recruiting, not a step-up.

 

[Rosemountian]

Someone might wanna tell doogie's dumb arse that he is the local media.

 

[howeda7]

Doogie, this list only means something if you also want to point out who's scholarship you want taken away. Other then a couple of obvious situations like Mav and Ingram, I don't think the upgrade over those on this list we actually could have gotten (Harrison Barnes, really?) is that huge.

 

[Doogie]

Doogie I think your expectations for Tubby's recruiting are way too high. You list 5-star recruits as if simply being Tubby should get those guys to want to come to a place that has never been able to get them. A step-up in recruiting from the Monson years has already happened. You were clearly expecting a jump-up in recruiting, not a step-up.

Clearly, some of the names and schools they were competing against were unrealistic. But sure, my expectations for Tubby might be different than yours. By the end of his 5th year, I expected an NCAA win or two. I expected the Barn to be the place to be under Tubby. So far, neither is the case. And yes, whether it was Burke, Kirk, Hardaway, Jesperson, and others, I didn't think Tubby would lose to Virginia, Michigan, New Mexico, and comparable schools.

 

[Doogie]

Doogie, this list only means something if you also want to point out who's scholarship you want taken away. Other then a couple of obvious situations like Mav and Ingram, I don't think the upgrade over those on this list we actually could have gotten (Harrison Barnes, really?) is that huge.

They wanted Kirk before Elliott. They wanted others before Chip, Ingram, and more. They don't have enough talent to overcome Mbkwe's injury, and while they'll win some games the rest of the way, doing something in March doesn't appear realistic, so pointing out why that is the case.

 

[zambam]

They wanted Kirk before Elliott. They wanted others before Chip, Ingram, and more. They don't have enough talent to overcome Mbkwe's injury, and while they'll win some games the rest of the way, doing something in March doesn't appear realistic, so pointing out why that is the case.

Why is this not possible? Clearly we have good depth at the guard/wing and good players out there. Tubby seems very willing to change up his normal style of play to adapt to this. If we can pus the pace in the B1G I see no reason we can't win a few games we shouldn't, giving us enough to make the tourney. And at that point, it's a crap shoot.

 

[Doogie]

Why is this not possible? Clearly we have good depth at the guard/wing and good players out there. Tubby seems very willing to change up his normal style of play to adapt to this. If we can pus the pace in the B1G I see no reason we can't win a few games we shouldn't, giving us enough to make the tourney. And at that point, it's a crap shoot.

Zambam -- glad to wager lunch at whatever spot you would like. I'll say they don't make the Big Dance for the 3rd time in 5 years... you want to say they do?

 

[Dr.Don]

doogie...the explainer you get the wronger you are.

 

[zambam]

Zambam -- glad to wager lunch at whatever spot you would like. I'll say they don't make the Big Dance for the 3rd time in 5 years... you want to say they do?

I would normally take you up on this, but this would require quite a bit of travel for me if I were to win or lose. I am going to school in Wisconsin (no not at Madison)

 

[Doogie]

doogie...the explainer you get the wronger you are.

Expound. I'm all ears. Fact: they wanted Kirk over Eliason. My opinion, so willing to go back-and-forth: the day we found out Tubby was coming, I thought holy bleep. But he's disappointed. Missing out on recruits is a part of that equation. Figured that blanket statement didn't work by itself, so cited specific examples.

 

[GophersOnTheRise]

Each and every school misses out on recruits. If you think top programs don't have to settle for plan B, C, or even worse you don't follow recruiting much. Think about how many offers high-major players get. They can only choose one school. All of the oher schools that offered then 'miss' on that given player. Were you under the impression most players only get one offer?

 

[From the Barn]

You do realize you are just reinforcing that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how college basketball recruiting works, right?

 

[Doogie]

I expected Tubby to not have to resort to plans C & D & E as often as he has. Might do a better job verbalizing the issues. Yes, I understand the recruiting process. Hard not to when around all parties on a regular basis over the last 15 years.

 

[Gold Vision]

They wanted Kirk before Elliott. They wanted others before Chip, Ingram, and more. They don't have enough talent to overcome Mbkwe's injury, and while they'll win some games the rest of the way, doing something in March doesn't appear realistic, so pointing out why that is the case.

3/4 of that list is ridiculous, especially when you include the classes from 2008 and 2009. It's not just the loss of Mbakwe that hurt the upperclassman talent level on this team. It's the loss of White, Joseph, Cobbs, Carter, and Iverson that forced spring recruiting. Tubby has done well in fall recruiting every year. 5 late defections will kill any depth. Tubby is not blame free on those defections, but you could make a list like that for any team.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I expected Tubby to not have to resort to plans C & D & E as often as he has. Might do a better job verbalizing the issues. Yes, I understand the recruiting process. Hard not to when around all parties on a regular basis over the last 15 years.

Doogie, while I agree with you that I expected more out of Tubby than he has given us, I don't agree with your point on recruiting. That is really the nature of the game when it comes to basketball recruiting (only so many spots).

I don't think Tubby has been a big success here, at least not up to my (maybe unrealistic) expectations, but I don't think it has had much to do with recruiting. I think it has had everything to do with issues within the program. If this program still had Royce, Joseph, Mbakwe (healthy), etc....we would never be talking about the recruits he "missed" on.

My point, while he has had issues here and those issues have led to less than ideal results, I don't think there is a problem with him "missing" on players. Because frankly, that happens.

 

[Doogie]

Doogie, while I agree with you that I expected more out of Tubby than he has given us, I don't agree with your point on recruiting. That is really the nature of the game when it comes to basketball recruiting (only so many spots).

I don't think Tubby has been a big success here, at least not up to my (maybe unrealistic) expectations, but I don't think it has had much to do with recruiting. I think it has had everything to do with issues within the program. If this program still had Royce, Joseph, Mbakwe (healthy), etc....we would never be talking about the recruits he "missed" on.

My point, while he has had issues here and those issues have led to less than ideal results, I don't think there is a problem with him "missing" on players. Because frankly, that happens.

Hear you on Royce (not Tubby's call). Devoe was a combo. Can't say Tubby is 100% blameless for his departure.

Sure, heck, Roy Williams misses on recruits. Just wondering aloud about how/why he's lost battles to Michigan, Virginia, and New Mexico.

Biggest point is this: through 5 years, whatever reasons are cited, both in Tubby's favor, and the other way, more was expected. In fact, at least for me, a lot more.

 

[scher215]

Hear you on Royce (not Tubby's call). Devoe was a combo. Can't say Tubby is 100% blameless for his departure.

Sure, heck, Roy Williams misses on recruits. Just wondering aloud about how/why he's lost battles to Michigan, Virginia, and New Mexico.

Biggest point is this: through 5 years, whatever reasons are cited, both in Tubby's favor, and the other way, more was expected. In fact, at least for me, a lot more.

UK (Calipari) lost battles in 2012 to Michigan and Providence ... Maybe the BBN should be paying more attention to that?

In fact, MSU lost out to lowly Minnesota for Royce White. Wonder if MSU fans should not be ignoring this? Kansas also lost out to MN for Devoe and Kentucky for Ralph.

So yes, tubby has missed on recruits to "lower" schools, but has also pulled away from "better" schools. It will take a bit more analysis of every player tubby signed and offered and where they ended up over whom as well as comparing that number to coaches at other schools to see where runny ranks at the national average. Maybe you could even weight certain players based on ranking to come up with a rating system?

 

[Doogie]

Fair enough. Will explore. A weighted system is still subjective. Will have to rely on those who will know who can verbalize how many choice C, D, E, and Fs Tubby ended up with because others said no.

 

[THE SCOUT!]

FACT! tubby started out with rather highly rated classes, the players turned out to be over rated. Bad luck with nolen, white, trevor plus devoe leaving. Signed a couple of really low rated out of state kids in 2010 other than that doing fine. I guess you can't project recruits transfering out. Big ten has best array of coaches now top to bottom than i have ever seen so tubby has got his hands full. Is tubby overpaid yes are the gophs a great program for attracting proven high grade coaches NO

 

[From the Barn]

Only because I am bored.

2012

Marcus Paige – North Carolina - no chance, was going to UNC all along

Adam Woodbury – Iowa - Iowa kid chose to play in Iowa

AJ Hammons – Purdue - Indiana kid who wanted to stay home

Nick Banyard – New Mexico - Texas kid who wanted to stay close to home

Steve Taylor – Marquette - ESPN tells me Gophers didn't even have interest

Cameron Biedscheid – Notre Dame- Rivals tells me Gophers didn't offer



2011

Naadir Tharpe – Would have been nice, but he was going to a power school all along, 1 ppg

Josh Oglesby – Iowa - Iowa kid who chose to stay home,

Paul Jesperson – Virginia - would have been nice, no stats this season

Travis Trice – Michigan State - best other offer was either NU or Butler. You would have critized Tubby for not going after better recruits

TaShawn Thomas – Houston - ESPN tells me Gophers were never interested

Trey Burke – Michigan - Rivals tell me Gophers were never interested

Ryan Boatright – UCONN - ESPN tells me GOphers were never interested

Malcolm Brogdon - Virginia - would have been nice, GA kid who stayed south


2010

Corey Joseph – Texas - Was never coming here thanks to Devoe

Vander Blue – Marquette - Wisconsin kid who stayed home

Trevor Releford – Alabama - ESPN tells me Gophers weren't interested

Rickey Kreklow – Missouri - Missouri kid stayed home, was awful, transferred

Zach McCabe – Iowa - Iowa kid who stayed home

Tim Hardaway – Michigan - would have been nice but was going to Michigan anyway

Alex Kirk – New Mexico - New Mexico kid who stayed home and has been awful

Ray McCallum – Detroit - decided to play for his dad

Harrison Barnes – North Carolina - miracle we were even considered



2009

Darius Smith – UCONN then juco - bombed out never to be heard of again

Chris Colvin – Iowa State then juco - Rivals tell me Gophers weren't interested

Eric Bledsoe – Kentucky - never had a chance

Glen Rice – Georgia Tech - ESPN tells me Gophers weren't interested

Sam Dower – Gonzaga - had other priorities

Andrew Fitzgerald – Oklahoma - ESPN tells me Gophers weren't interested

Daniel Miller – Georgia Tech Georgia kid who stayed home

Torin Walker – Oklahoma State ESPN tells me GOphers weren't interested

Dan Jennings – West Virginia ESPN tells me Gophers weren't interested


2008

Verdell Jones III – Indiana - infamous Pizza incident

Krys Faber - DePaul - would be nice with front court depth, but wouldn't be needed w/o injuries

The final tally:
Kids Tubby failed to poach from their own state/region 10
Kids who Tubby didn't poach from their own father 1
Kids who Gophers weren't actively recruiting 11
Guys who bombed out 1
Never had a chance 4
Would have been criticised for recruiting 1
Misses 3 - Jesperson, Faber, Jones

So you were saying?

 

[bga1]

Nobody cares who you missed

Bottom line:

Who did you get?
Did you win?

 

[scools12]

Why is this not possible? Clearly we have good depth at the guard/wing and good players out there. Tubby seems very willing to change up his normal style of play to adapt to this. If we can pus the pace in the B1G I see no reason we can't win a few games we shouldn't, giving us enough to make the tourney. And at that point, it's a crap shoot.

zambam it has been pointed out that if you had certain expectations for the Gophers with Mbwake you cannot "sanely" have the same expectations for the Gophers without Mbwake.

by this logic Doggie would be correct.

 

[zambam]

zambam it has been pointed out that if you had expected the Gophers to be able to do something in March with Mbwake you cannot "sanely" expected the Gophers to do something in March without Mbwake.

by this logic Doggie would be correct.

I really don't care what people think I can sanely believe. I believe that with Mbakwe out, and 3 guards in we will be able to push the pace and win games we may not have if we still had Mbakwe. Frankly, with Mbakwe, all teams have to do is stop him and our offense was stalled.

 

[Stan]

Only because I am bored.



The final tally:
Kids Tubby failed to poach from their own state/region 10
Kids who Tubby didn't poach from their own father 1
Kids who Gophers weren't actively recruiting 11
Guys who bombed out 1
Never had a chance 4
Would have been criticised for recruiting 1
Misses 3 - Jesperson, Faber, Jones

So you were saying?

Great post From The Barn. Doogie is so wrong on this. You can't look at this in a vacuum and apparently Doogie thinks you offer one kid and if he says no you offer another. That's not how it works. If you have one scholarship, you may offer 5 kids. So true to form, Doogie rips Tubby for swinging and missing on four kids in that scenario. Brilliant.

 

[scools12]

I really don't care what people think I can sanely believe. I believe that with Mbakwe out, and 3 guards in we will be able to push the pace and win games we may not have if we still had Mbakwe. Frankly, with Mbakwe, all teams have to do is stop him and our offense was stalled.

I am not disagreeing with you.

 

[freshtrout]

Doogie, you state that you can't say that Tubby isn't 100% blameless in Devoe leaving ... please share.

 

[scher215]

Doogie, you state that you can't say that Tubby isn't 100% blameless in Devoe leaving ... please share.

Damien Johnson has tweeted to Marcus that Devoe fit better in a more "open system like the pac12" and that he left for the "same reason as cobbs" whom he also said fit better in the PAC12 (hence Oregon and cal)

So, maybe not tubby per se, but tubby's and the big 10's system. Plus the drugs thing didn't help.

 

[Bad Gopher]

I bet you didnt have this many top 150 at once one time during the Monson era... Walker, Mbakwe, Sampson, Hollins, Williams, Coleman were all top 150 players.. Osineks, Elliason and Austin all had Major D1 offers and could very easily been top 150 players. that's 6 top 150 players.. and 3 that easily could have been. Welch and Ingram are pretty good players as well for juco's. don't tell me you had that kind of talent before Tubby because you didn't.

It depends on what you mean and how far back you go. Dutcher brought in a lot of high-end talent, all the way up to the end of his tenure. Musselman did too, but perhaps under shady circumstances.

I like to think of the recruiting process as including talent evaluation, which is way more than where Rivals has people ranked. For this reason, my measure is how much cream rises to the top. It might sound crude and unscientific, but how many of your recruits ended up playing in the NBA, even for a short time?

By my count:
Haskins recruited 12 players that played in the NBA in his 14 seasons here. That would be 13 if you include El-Amin, who de-committed.

Monson recruited 1 NBA player in 7+ seasons.

The jury's still out on the current crop of Tubby's players. I give him credit for Royce White since he was indeed enrolled here. Credit also for Mbakwe, who I feel would still have to be run over by a bus to avoid playing in the League. So that's two in 4+ years in addition to anyone else on the roster who develops into that kind of player (which I think is going to be zero, but I hope I'm wrong; Austin Hollins is the leading candidate IMO).

In summary:
Haskins - 12 in 14 years
Monson - 1 in 7+ years
Tubby - 2 in 4+ years

Again, this is by my count, and I could be wrong.

 

[freshtrout]

Damien Johnson has tweeted to Marcus that Devoe fit better in a more "open system like the pac12" and that he left for the "same reason as cobbs" whom he also said fit better in the PAC12 (hence Oregon and cal)

So, maybe not tubby per se, but tubby's and the big 10's system. Plus the drugs thing didn't help.

w
Right - I agree with that, but Doogie says Tubby isn't blameless...because Tubby and his system didn't 'fit' Devoe? How is this the fault of Tubby? Team rules (likely)... how is that the fault of Tubby? Doogie throwing that out there just shows he's grabbing at straws to make his weak points regarding reqruiting.