Chip Scoggins: Gophers have a quarterback quandary

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60's Guy said:
When he rates out at a 104th best of 115 quarterbacks who played this week, I think it's okay for people to expect better. If you factor in the opponent he vaults to 90th best. All Chip is saying is we need average quarterback play. We didn't get it in game one. Any rational person or coach is going to explore all remedies. Maybe we have none other than Mitch performing better? But to deny we have a problem...that's the comedy to me. http://espn.go.com/ncf/qbr/_/page/3/sort/qbr
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That's a nonsense stat. He rated out at a -3.6 (third worst) in "Sack EPA" because of the fumble.....which was in no way his fault.
 

During the open practices I watched Croft throw several perfect spirals ... right to defensive backs! Folks, relax, he will probably be great but he is a couple of years away.
 

The thing about Leidner is he has played under much better lines in the past to similar results. Overall shows moments of ability intermixed with a whole heap of inaccuracy. Previously it was a receiver issue now it's an OLine issue, from my perspective he's ultimately a below average QB we'd replace if anyone we're immediately available. He's essentially a bruising FB at QB you hope can make 1-4 throws over 10 yards per game while the defense plays great.
 

60's Guy said:
When he rates out at a 104th best of 115 quarterbacks who played this week, I think it's okay for people to expect better. If you factor in the opponent he vaults to 90th best. All Chip is saying is we need average quarterback play. We didn't get it in game one. Any rational person or coach is going to explore all remedies. Maybe we have none other than Mitch performing better? But to deny we have a problem...that's the comedy to me. http://espn.go.com/ncf/qbr/_/page/3/sort/qbr
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60 Trevone Boykin, TCU

Awesome metric. Do you think TCU is "expecting better"?
 

stocker08 said:
That's a nonsense stat. He rated out at a -3.6 (third worst) in "Sack EPA" because of the fumble.....which was in no way his fault.
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http://www.footballperspective.com/is-espns-qbr-the-best-measure-of-quarterback-play/

Their Conclusion: "QBR is the best way to measure quarterback play"

Everything has it's critics... All you are doing is supporting my point: you are denying there is a problem at quarterback.
If Mitch had better pocket presence, better instinct, was a better a quarterback there doesn't have to be a fumble. So, every time a lineman misses a block and the quarterback throws an interception or the quarterback fumbles, that's the lineman's fault? Sorry, it can't work like that if you are the quarterback. Quarterbacks need to take responsibility and be accountable for the whole offense. If they are not, they won't win big games. Ball security, the quarterback is the guy with the ball, not the lineman. We blame Nugget for his fumble versus crediting the tackle, but we blame the lineman rather than Mitch for the fumble? Awareness of the situation is pretty big part of being a good quarterback. (He does have a tendency to cough it up.)
I don't know if Mitch is our best quarterback. He was in game one. We'll see going forward. My whole point...for the team to be "good" we have to have better quarterback play from somebody.
Denying that will not fix it.
 


goldengophers said:
The thing about Leidner is he has played under much better lines in the past to similar results. Overall shows moments of ability intermixed with a whole heap of inaccuracy. Previously it was a receiver issue now it's an OLine issue, from my perspective he's ultimately a below average QB we'd replace if anyone we're immediately available. He's essentially a bruising FB at QB you hope can make 1-4 throws over 10 yards per game while the defense plays great.
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By what metric? He is not below average by B1G standards or by NCAA standards.
 

Unregistered User said:
60 Trevone Boykin, TCU

Awesome metric. Do you think TCU is "expecting better"?
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The problem with the QBR stat is that it puts WAY to much stock into the sack fumble.....which wasn't Leidner fault. One game. QBR is a worthless stat through one game.
 

60's Guy said:
http://www.footballperspective.com/is-espns-qbr-the-best-measure-of-quarterback-play/

Their Conclusion: "QBR is the best way to measure quarterback play"

Everything has it's critics... All you are doing is supporting my point: you are denying there is a problem at quarterback.
If Mitch had better pocket presence, better instinct, was a better a quarterback there doesn't have to be a fumble. So, every time a lineman misses a block and the quarterback throws an interception or the quarterback fumbles, that's the lineman's fault? Sorry, it can't work like that if you are the quarterback. Quarterbacks need to take responsibility and be accountable for the whole offense. If they are not, they won't win big games. Ball security, the quarterback is the guy with the ball, not the lineman. We blame Nugget for his fumble versus crediting the tackle, but we blame the lineman rather than Mitch for the fumble? Awareness of the situation is pretty big part of being a good quarterback. (He does have a tendency to cough it up.)
I don't know if Mitch is our best quarterback. He was in game one. We'll see going forward. My whole point...for the team to be "good" we have to have better quarterback play from somebody.
Denying that will not fix it.
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Better pocket presence? He had enough time to do his three step drop before getting hit. It's not as though he stood in the pocket like a statue. One game is not nearly enough to make the determination that QBR is a relevant statistic. Wait until the Gophers get a few cupcakes before determining how the season will go. Playing the number two team in the nation isn't going to make many QB's look very good.
 

60's Guy said:
http://www.footballperspective.com/is-espns-qbr-the-best-measure-of-quarterback-play/

Their Conclusion: "QBR is the best way to measure quarterback play"

Everything has it's critics... All you are doing is supporting my point: you are denying there is a problem at quarterback.
If Mitch had better pocket presence, better instinct, was a better a quarterback there doesn't have to be a fumble. So, every time a lineman misses a block and the quarterback throws an interception or the quarterback fumbles, that's the lineman's fault? Sorry, it can't work like that if you are the quarterback. Quarterbacks need to take responsibility and be accountable for the whole offense. If they are not, they won't win big games. Ball security, the quarterback is the guy with the ball, not the lineman. We blame Nugget for his fumble versus crediting the tackle, but we blame the lineman rather than Mitch for the fumble? Awareness of the situation is pretty big part of being a good quarterback. (He does have a tendency to cough it up.)
I don't know if Mitch is our best quarterback. He was in game one. We'll see going forward. My whole point...for the team to be "good" we have to have better quarterback play from somebody.
Denying that will not fix it.
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Please define what "good" means to you. 19/35, with his receivers dropping several passes, 1 TD & no Ints certainly isn't "bad". I'm really curious what you think the standard should be to be considered good? 65% completion rate? 70%? 3 TDS per game? 300+ yards per game?

I'm not even a "Leidner" guy, but he was middle of the pack in B1G QB rating last year, athletic enough to be one of only 8 QB's last season to pass & rush for 10 TD's or more, was the #1 QB in the entire country for Red Zone efficiency, etc. I'm not saying he's Payton Manning, but I am saying he's not "the problem" or even close to being the problem. We can win with Mitch.
 



Unregistered User said:
60 Trevone Boykin, TCU

Awesome metric. Do you think TCU is "expecting better"?
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I have no idea if you are being sarcastic or rippin' but, Coach Patterson said he could have probably at least hit one the two wide open receivers for touchdowns. So, I'd say they absolutely expected Boykin to play better. Boykin said as much as well. http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/college-sports/columnists/chuck-carlton/20150904-carlton-tcu-s-defense-without-six-of-top-seven-tacklers-from-a-year-ago-saves-horned-frogs-from-upset.ece

And when you factor in the opponent Boykin moves up to number 36 of 115. That's above average.
 


60's Guy said:
I have no idea if you are being sarcastic or rippin' but, Coach Patterson said he could have probably at least hit one the two wide open receivers for touchdowns. So, I'd say they absolutely expected Boykin to play better. Boykin said as much as well. http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/college-sports/columnists/chuck-carlton/20150904-carlton-tcu-s-defense-without-six-of-top-seven-tacklers-from-a-year-ago-saves-horned-frogs-from-upset.ece

And when you factor in the opponent Boykin moves up to number 36 of 115. That's above average.
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36 out of 115 is "average". I can't help you.
 

60's Guy said:
http://www.footballperspective.com/is-espns-qbr-the-best-measure-of-quarterback-play/

Their Conclusion: "QBR is the best way to measure quarterback play"

Everything has it's critics... All you are doing is supporting my point: you are denying there is a problem at quarterback.
If Mitch had better pocket presence, better instinct, was a better a quarterback there doesn't have to be a fumble. So, every time a lineman misses a block and the quarterback throws an interception or the quarterback fumbles, that's the lineman's fault? Sorry, it can't work like that if you are the quarterback. Quarterbacks need to take responsibility and be accountable for the whole offense. If they are not, they won't win big games. Ball security, the quarterback is the guy with the ball, not the lineman. We blame Nugget for his fumble versus crediting the tackle, but we blame the lineman rather than Mitch for the fumble? Awareness of the situation is pretty big part of being a good quarterback. (He does have a tendency to cough it up.)
I don't know if Mitch is our best quarterback. He was in game one. We'll see going forward. My whole point...for the team to be "good" we have to have better quarterback play from somebody.
Denying that will not fix it.
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Or you could use your own eyes. Nuggets fumble was a nice run he just didn't protect the ball. Leidner fumble in the end zone was clearly a break down on the line. Mitch made some errant throws where he had time so did boy kin. Overall he didn't lose the game for us. As a whole we didn't exactly get any part if the offense going.
 



Have any of you obsessing over the spiral played catch with a football? Do you throw a tight one? Do those who throw to you? Can you catch it if it's not a tight spiral? Sheesh.

As for you, Chip, I think we have a newspaper writer quandary and I think it's time to get a look at the 2nd and 3rd teamers.
 

This article was "below average".
 

Costa Rican Gopher said:
Please define what "good" means to you. 19/35, with his receivers dropping several passes, 1 TD & no Ints certainly isn't "bad". I'm really curious what you think the standard should be to be considered good? 65% completion rate? 70%? 3 TDS per game? 300+ yards per game?

I'm not even a "Leidner" guy, but he was middle of the pack in B1G QB rating last year, athletic enough to be one of only 8 QB's last season to pass & rush for 10 TD's or more, was the #1 QB in the entire country for Red Zone efficiency, etc. I'm not saying he's Payton Manning, but I am saying he's not "the problem" or even close to being the problem. We can win with Mitch.
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I agree with much of that. I'm not so much about statistics as proof but people were ripping earlier for reasons why Mitch isn't a good quarterback...so stats is pretty much the answer to that argument.
I trust the coaches...I'm guessing Mitch is the best we have. It's about intangibles for me...the plays you make, and especially, when you make them. Body language: you have to look comfortable out there. Your team feeds off you. Play with a smile. Play confident. I don't see that from Mitch. All I hear is how much of a leader he is from Jerry...don't see it on the field. (Kind of like Joe Mauer being a leader...who says that? anybody? but they used to) Those kinds of things. Again, I agree with much of what you said...we can win with Mitch...he can play well...but he can also play poorly. Somebody said Mitch was better this year than last year versus TCU...that is true...so in that light he is getting better.
I'm guessing we don't do certain things because Mitch isn't effective at them... but mixing in quicker, shorter passes more often that should be completed at a higher percentage would give me a different outlook overall on the team's fortunes.
 

Costa Rican Gopher said:
36 out of 115 is "average". I can't help you.
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36 of 115 is above average in any math class.....someone needs "help" with math class? Or is it just makin' crap up you prefer, suggesting I said it was average?
 

Mitch got us within 6 of possibly the best team in existence. If this was one of Mitch's 'bad' games, we are going to have a hell of a year - he looked much better than last year. People really have to go back and look at his stats in our losses to elite defenses and will realize that Thursday was a vast improvement. Gopherhole REALLY needs an "all things Mitch Leidner" thread - it's getting ridiculous.
 

60's Guy said:
I agree with much of that. I'm not so much about statistics as proof but people were ripping earlier for reasons why Mitch isn't a good quarterback...so stats is pretty much the answer to that argument.
I trust the coaches...I'm guessing Mitch is the best we have. It's about intangibles for me...the plays you make, and especially, when you make them. Body language: you have to look comfortable out there. Your team feeds off you. Play with a smile. Play confident. I don't see that from Mitch. All I hear is how much of a leader he is from Jerry...don't see it on the field. (Kind of like Joe Mauer being a leader...who says that? anybody? but they used to) Those kinds of things. Again, I agree with much of what you said...we can win with Mitch...he can play well...but he can also play poorly. Somebody said Mitch was better this year than last year versus TCU...that is true...so in that light he is getting better.
I'm guessing we don't do certain things because Mitch isn't effective at them... but mixing in quicker, shorter passes more often that should be completed at a higher percentage would give me a different outlook overall on the team's fortunes.
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He had the highest red zone efficiency of any QB in college football last year. That's a pretty good time to make plays, imo.
 

GopherHomer said:
Mitch got us within 6 of possibly the best team in existence. If this was one of Mitch's 'bad' games, we are going to have a hell of a year - he looked much better than last year. People really have to go back and look at his stats in our losses to elite defenses and will realize that Thursday was a vast improvement. Gopherhole REALLY needs an "all things Mitch Leidner" thread - it's getting ridiculous.
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I agree 100%

Light years ahead of what he showed last year against TCU and played better than he did against OSU and Wisconsin.
 

Leidner is a leader, tough as nails and doesn't deserve the amount of criticism that he receives. With that said, I think a lot of us are pining for the day when our program has a true passing pro-style QB that can carry an entire team on his shoulders when needed.
 

Costa Rican Gopher said:
He had the highest red zone efficiency of any QB in college football last year. That's a pretty good time to make plays, imo.
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Look Mitch was number 30 in the country in QBR last year. Cobb and Maxx factor into those stats. I'm not trying to bash Mitch. I am saying he didn't play well vs TCU and we need better quaterback play going forward. Deny that, disagree, that's cool, just don't twist what I say.
 


I don't agree that Leidner is the worst QB to ever step foot on a college football field = I am a Leidner apologist.
 

60's Guy said:
Look Mitch was number 30 in the country in QBR last year. Cobb and Maxx factor into those stats. I'm not trying to bash Mitch. I am saying he didn't play well vs TCU and we need better quaterback play going forward. Deny that, disagree, that's cool, just don't twist what I say.
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So Cobb and Maxx factor into his stats last year.....but the poor o-line play on Thursday doesn't factor into his stats through one game? That's quite the selective reasoning.

Nobody denies that we need more consistent QB play........but we played the #2 team in the nation.........and Leidner didn't play nearly as bad as some think. He's not a game changer. He's a game manager. I think that he did that on Thursday. Keep in mind.......if the OC calls three straight runs and we have to punt.........that shouldn't reflect poorly on ML.
 

After having a few days to think about it, my frustrations with Leidner are less that he missing passes, and more that he misses easy passes. I am not a football genius so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but what percentage of the throws that he makes are considered difficult by college standards? I watch other teams and the throws their QBs makes seem to be far more impressive than anything we even attempt. So it's like we are giving Mitch only the easier throws to make, and he still can't do that. I'm not calling for a change because because I trust the coaches are going with what they have. Just frustrated to see so much of our team improve, yet in the 5th year of Kill this is the best we have. It's going to hold us back.
 

fan of Ray Williams said:
http://espn.go.com/ncf/qbr/_/page/3/sort/qbr
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Go back to 2014. (Looks like you did, my friend.)[/QUOTE]

lol...no problem...I'm just frustrated by the people who think Mitch played well vs TCU. I thought going in, that Mitch was better than he played vs TCU. I guess, I'm having trouble deciding if i still feel he is better than that or if the TCU Mitch is all he really is?... basically inconsistent? Frustrated we lost...not satisfied being close. It was a pretty big opportunity.
 

stocker08 said:
So Cobb and Maxx factor into his stats last year.....but the poor o-line play on Thursday doesn't factor into his stats through one game? That's quite the selective reasoning.

Nobody denies that we need more consistent QB play........but we played the #2 team in the nation.........and Leidner didn't play nearly as bad as some think. He's not a game changer. He's a game manager. I think that he did that on Thursday. Keep in mind.......if the OC calls three straight runs and we have to punt.........that shouldn't reflect poorly on ML.
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"Nobody denies we need more consistent quarterback play" IF that were true I wouldn't have posted on the topic.

"poor o-line play"
Well, the coach thought thought the line played pretty well and I'd agree with him. Did the line play worse Thursday than they did last year? There are breakdowns every game...they are magnified when the quarterback fumbles. Patch quilt line I'd say played well.
 

60's Guy said:
Go back to 2014. (Looks like you did, my friend.)
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lol...no problem...I'm just frustrated by the people who think Mitch played well vs TCU. I thought going in, that Mitch was better than he played vs TCU. I guess, I'm having trouble deciding if i still feel he is better than that or if the TCU Mitch is all he really is?... basically inconsistent? Frustrated we lost...not satisfied being close. It was a pretty big opportunity.[/QUOTE]

Correct, my buddies and I were commenting after leaving the game that if you told us we'd lose by 6 before the game that would be a very good showing and that that Leidner would've played well. What we actually left with impression-wise is that the defense played terrific and made up for an innacurate and inconsistent Leidner. Like was said above he's is not being asked to make very tough throws, you just hope he can make 1-4 over 10 yards a game, limit turnovers and be a very poor man's Trent Dilfer.
 

60's Guy said:
When he rates out at a 104th best of 115 quarterbacks who played this week, I think it's okay for people to expect better. If you factor in the opponent he vaults to 90th best. All Chip is saying is we need average quarterback play. We didn't get it in game one. Any rational person or coach is going to explore all remedies. Maybe we have none other than Mitch performing better? But to deny we have a problem...that's the comedy to me. http://espn.go.com/ncf/qbr/_/page/3/sort/qbr
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Last season I think he finished 113 of 119 - something like that. QB is the missing link in getting this team to the B10 championship - but passing has been a problem for years (remember the controversy over Weber?). It has been a long time since we've had a decent passing QB. Watching the better ones over the weekend (hitting 75% to 95%) was instructive.
 

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