Ben Johnson is a Disaster

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Gophers7633 said:
There are certainly plenty of examples of that. Shrewsbury was one of the numerous examples of being successful in year 2 at PSU. Obviously not every coach is successful in year 1 at a program. But plenty of examples exist.
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Of course there are examples of first year coaches having success. There are also plenty of coaches that need a couple years to build and develop a roster.
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
Yet that team still had better wins through the 1st 1/3 of the season than this one does.
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Oh good lord.....That year one team had a lot of experienced players who gelled quickly and had a couple solid early season wins before they predictably fell apart down the stretch and couldn't contend with most teams in the Big Ten due to their complete lack of skilled size.

This current roster is better than that squad at their very best and has potential to get even better as guys like JOJ, Payne, Carrington and Christie continue to gain experience.

The schedule this year has been really bad and the second half collapse against Missouri after having a huge lead sucked. But that doesn't change the fact that this is easily Johnson's most talented and complete team during his 3 years here.

I know you and the crew that insists on being down on anything and everything Gopher basketball want to pretend like those of us that are actually seeing some things to like this year are somehow excusing everything from the first 2 years but that couldn't be farther from the truth.

Those first 2 years were a complete disaster which is why coming into this year nearly everyone agreed that there would have to be signs of improvement to justify keeping BJ around for another year. We are not at the point yet where he is out of the woods but there is quite a bit to like about this current team and there is a very good chance that they will end up doing enough to keep Johnson around for at least one more year. I know that isn't what you want to hear but it is the way things are trending.....Sorry.
 


MNVCGUY said:
Oh good lord.....That year one team had a lot of experienced players who gelled quickly and had a couple solid early season wins before they predictably fell apart down the stretch and couldn't contend with most teams in the Big Ten due to their complete lack of skilled size.

This current roster is better than that squad at their very best and has potential to get even better as guys like JOJ, Payne, Carrington and Christie continue to gain experience.

The schedule this year has been really bad and the second half collapse against Missouri after having a huge lead sucked. But that doesn't change the fact that this is easily Johnson's most talented and complete team during his 3 years here.

I know you and the crew that insists on being down on anything and everything Gopher basketball want to pretend like those of us that are actually seeing some things to like this year are somehow excusing everything from the first 2 years but that couldn't be farther from the truth.

Those first 2 years were a complete disaster which is why coming into this year nearly everyone agreed that there would have to be signs of improvement to justify keeping BJ around for another year. We are not at the point yet where he is out of the woods but there is quite a bit to like about this current team and there is a very good chance that they will end up doing enough to keep Johnson around for at least one more year. I know that isn't what you want to hear but it is the way things are trending.....Sorry.
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Even though I lean more critical and skeptical than you may, this is a really fair post, and I think close to the way most of us probably feel - even those of us that express frustration.

I do think the collapses experienced throughout the Tubby and Pitino years (with CBJ as an assistant) probably leave many fans reluctant to accept any signs of optimism. A lot of January and early February peaks the last 15 years. The Gophers are going to need to break that trend under CBJ before optimism is the prevailing sentiment.
 


MNVCGUY said:
Oh good lord.....That year one team had a lot of experienced players who gelled quickly and had a couple solid early season wins before they predictably fell apart down the stretch and couldn't contend with most teams in the Big Ten due to their complete lack of skilled size.

This current roster is better than that squad at their very best and has potential to get even better as guys like JOJ, Payne, Carrington and Christie continue to gain experience.

The schedule this year has been really bad and the second half collapse against Missouri after having a huge lead sucked. But that doesn't change the fact that this is easily Johnson's most talented and complete team during his 3 years here.

I know you and the crew that insists on being down on anything and everything Gopher basketball want to pretend like those of us that are actually seeing some things to like this year are somehow excusing everything from the first 2 years but that couldn't be farther from the truth.

Those first 2 years were a complete disaster which is why coming into this year nearly everyone agreed that there would have to be signs of improvement to justify keeping BJ around for another year. We are not at the point yet where he is out of the woods but there is quite a bit to like about this current team and there is a very good chance that they will end up doing enough to keep Johnson around for at least one more year. I know that isn't what you want to hear but it is the way things are trending.....Sorry.
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Based on this, the current team should easily win 10 conference games.
 




GopherWeatherGuy said:
I've said several times this team is better than last years. What proof is there yet that this team is better than year 1's team as of today?

You and the others who continue to argue the same things over and over with me are only helping to make my point. The basketball program has been such a disaster the last two years that anything slightly better looks like progress. That's exactly why Ben is still a disaster.

That still doesn't mean it's good basketball or that actual progress is being made compared to the last several coaches who have coached here and were significantly better than Ben has been so far.
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Who is agruing with who?
 

MonikerSchmoniker45 said:
Some of us understand what "better" means. We also understand circumstances the first year may have been out of CBJ's control and get excited about what we're seeing with this team. You made up your mind on this season in December, when you didn't even know who the players were going to be, and now you "enjoy the wins" while telling everyone a road win against a team that whooped us last year doesn't mean progress? 🤡🤡🤡🤡
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Let's say this: Even a team that goes 5-15 in the B1G probably has 2 wins right now because of who we've played and so does one that goes 11-9. We still don't know where in that range this team is, but the higher range seems more attainable now.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Oh good lord.....That year one team had a lot of experienced players who gelled quickly and had a couple solid early season wins before they predictably fell apart down the stretch and couldn't contend with most teams in the Big Ten due to their complete lack of skilled size.

This current roster is better than that squad at their very best and has potential to get even better as guys like JOJ, Payne, Carrington and Christie continue to gain experience.

The schedule this year has been really bad and the second half collapse against Missouri after having a huge lead sucked. But that doesn't change the fact that this is easily Johnson's most talented and complete team during his 3 years here.

I know you and the crew that insists on being down on anything and everything Gopher basketball want to pretend like those of us that are actually seeing some things to like this year are somehow excusing everything from the first 2 years but that couldn't be farther from the truth.

Those first 2 years were a complete disaster which is why coming into this year nearly everyone agreed that there would have to be signs of improvement to justify keeping BJ around for another year. We are not at the point yet where he is out of the woods but there is quite a bit to like about this current team and there is a very good chance that they will end up doing enough to keep Johnson around for at least one more year. I know that isn't what you want to hear but it is the way things are trending.....Sorry.
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How many B1G wins do you think Ben needs to keep his job?
 

Johnson will keep his job not only because the team is quite an improvement and won't finish in the basement but because his teams get good grades and stay out of trouble. That too is important for us old fart donors. He has also shown he can recruit in Minnesota...a lot of our good players have returned (Garcia, Fox, Sutherlin, Battle) or come here in the first place (Thompson, Ola-Joseph, Payne, Carrington, Asuma, Grove) and local walk ons (Purcell, Ramberg, Reader). That's a lot of Minnesotans! Which means the local club coaches like him.
 
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Gophers7633 said:
Yes, I understand all of this. I also understand the quality of this team at the moment(half way through the season) is performing like the team that got Pitino fired. I personally, would like to be above that bar. That isn't asking all that much.
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Pitino was a lousy coach, a lousy evaluator and his players got in trouble. There was more to fire him for than just his team. He was here a long time and didn't take over the dumpster fire Johnson did.
 

MonikerSchmoniker45 said:
I think we all understand that there's a lot left to prove for CBJ, but this current blueprint for success is different than anything we've seen in a while. It's not just our best player getting hot... there's real teamwork going on.
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This! Teamwork is coaching! Pitino's teams never had teamwork. That's why those of us who have studied basketball and coached on some level, can see that Johnson is a better coach than Pitino.
 

CoMn said:
Johnson will keep his job not only because the team is quite an improvement and won't finish in the basement but because his teams get good grades and stay out of trouble. That too is important for us old fart donors. He has also shown he can recruit in Minnesota...a lot of our good players have returned (Garcia, Fox, Willis, Sutherlin, Battle) or come here in the first place (Thompson, Ola-Joseph, Payne, Carrington, Asuma, Grove) and local walk ons (Purcell, Ramberg, Reader). That's a lot of Minnesotans! Which means the local club coaches like him.
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Willis is from Arkansas for the record: )
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
How many B1G wins do you think Ben needs to keep his job?
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No clue if there is a certain number he has to reach but if this team keeps playing the way they are playing to date I think he will almost certainly win enough to keep his job for at least another season.

Let me flip that to you. Based on what you are seeing from the team this year do you really think he still should get fired right now? Is there a win total that will make you actually think Johnson should not be fired?
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
I've said several times this team is better than last years. What proof is there yet that this team is better than year 1's team as of today?

You and the others who continue to argue the same things over and over with me are only helping to make my point. The basketball program has been such a disaster the last two years that anything slightly better looks like progress. That's exactly why Ben is still a disaster.

That still doesn't mean it's good basketball or that actual progress is being made compared to the last several coaches who have coached here and were significantly better than Ben has been so far.
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The proof that this team is better than year 1 this. Peyton Willis and Jamison Battle carried that team to many of the victories and if one of them wasn't having a good game, then an L was a certainty. This year, two guys are not carrying us to victories. Vs. Nebraska 5 guys were in double figures and one other was at 9, led by JOJ with 15. At Michigan, again we had 5 guys in double figures with Mike M leading with 18. Last night only 4 were in double figures with two others at 8 and Cam C led with 12.
We also don't have to play guys for all 40 minutes. We have a much deeper team and the bench guys can and do contribute, unlike that year 1 team.
 

GFBfan said:
The proof that this team is better than year 1 this. Peyton Willis and Jamison Battle carried that team to many of the victories and if one of them wasn't having a good game, then an L was a certainty. This year, two guys are not carrying us to victories. Vs. Nebraska 5 guys were in double figures and one other was at 9, led by JOJ with 15. At Michigan, again we had 5 guys in double figures with Mike M leading with 18. Last night only 4 were in double figures with two others at 8 and Cam C led with 12.
We also don't have to play guys for all 40 minutes. We have a much deeper team and the bench guys can and do contribute, unlike that year 1 team.
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Well said....I get the general negativity some are still hanging onto based on the past two years but anyone that can't see that this team is easily the best team Johnson has had here during his 3 years is either blind or playing dumb.

Long way to go but middle of the pack in the Big Ten feels very attainable right now if the team stays healthy.
 

MNVCGUY said:
No clue if there is a certain number he has to reach but if this team keeps playing the way they are playing to date I think he will almost certainly win enough to keep his job for at least another season.

Let me flip that to you. Based on what you are seeing from the team this year do you really think he still should get fired right now? Is there a win total that will make you actually think Johnson should not be fired?
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He shouldn't be fired at this point, but here's the problem with simply saying he should get to x number of wins to stay. We're halfway through the season and our SOS still sits at 343. We literally have played the worst OOC schedule in the country according to KenPom. Evaluate how we are playing as a whole. We've been an above average CBB team this year, that is much improved over last year. I'd like to at least perform better than what got the previous coach fired in his final year. I'm not talking wins/losses. Just being better than that. We are approaching that, but still aren't there yet. We have one decent win and one bad loss. We played okay at OSU, played terrible vs. SF. We still haven't played what I would consider a good team yet. There are still question marks with this team, but we are much improved, which I give Johnson and the staff credit for. I'll forever wish we wouldn't have backed out of the Vegas event.
 

Gophers7633 said:
He shouldn't be fired at this point, but here's the problem with simply saying he should get to x number of wins to stay. We're halfway through the season and our SOS still sits at 343. We literally have played the worst OOC schedule in the country according to KenPom. Evaluate how we are playing as a whole. We've been an above average CBB team this year, that is much improved over last year. I'd like to at least perform better than what got the previous coach fired in his final year. I'm not talking wins/losses. Just being better than that. We are approaching that, but still aren't there yet. We have one decent win and one bad loss. We played okay at OSU, played terrible vs. SF. We still haven't played what I would consider a good team yet. There are still question marks with this team, but we are much improved, which I give Johnson and the staff credit for. I'll forever wish we wouldn't have backed out of the Vegas event.
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I agree, I'm always hesitant to pin a particular win total to a coaches status because there are so many factors that go into it. Some of them the coach can control, others they can't (injuries being the main one). Things are always in flux, what looks like a sure thing one day can drastically shift the next.

The soft OOC schedule makes it tough to really evaluate the team, however the 3-1 start to conference play does confirm that at least some of the improvement we are seeing is legit. I know it isn't saying much or any sort of massive accomplishment but it is looking very likely that we won't be at the bottom of the conference again when it is all said and done this year.

I'm cautiously optimistic that if this squad stays healthy they have a great shot of finishing with a .500 or better conference record.
 

GFBfan said:
The proof that this team is better than year 1 this. Peyton Willis and Jamison Battle carried that team to many of the victories and if one of them wasn't having a good game, then an L was a certainty. This year, two guys are not carrying us to victories. Vs. Nebraska 5 guys were in double figures and one other was at 9, led by JOJ with 15. At Michigan, again we had 5 guys in double figures with Mike M leading with 18. Last night only 4 were in double figures with two others at 8 and Cam C led with 12.
We also don't have to play guys for all 40 minutes. We have a much deeper team and the bench guys can and do contribute, unlike that year 1 team.
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They are deeper this year, I agree. While Battle and Willis were 1A and 1B that season, Stephens also averaged double figures, and Loewe helped them win several of their games as well.
 

MNVCGUY said:
No clue if there is a certain number he has to reach but if this team keeps playing the way they are playing to date I think he will almost certainly win enough to keep his job for at least another season.

Let me flip that to you. Based on what you are seeing from the team this year do you really think he still should get fired right now? Is there a win total that will make you actually think Johnson should not be fired?
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It's year 3, there is absolutely a number of wins they need to get to. You've even alluded to it in your previous posts. So what do you think that is? I've asked you and other posters first, but none of you will give me a number. I'll happily share my thoughts after you answer that question.

Just looking better after two disasterous years isn't enough. 3 BIG wins isn't enough either, which is what they have today. So yes, I do think Ben should and will get fired if he doesn't reach a certain number of wins this season.
 

Gophers7633 said:
He shouldn't be fired at this point, but here's the problem with simply saying he should get to x number of wins to stay. We're halfway through the season and our SOS still sits at 343. We literally have played the worst OOC schedule in the country according to KenPom. Evaluate how we are playing as a whole. We've been an above average CBB team this year, that is much improved over last year. I'd like to at least perform better than what got the previous coach fired in his final year. I'm not talking wins/losses. Just being better than that. We are approaching that, but still aren't there yet. We have one decent win and one bad loss. We played okay at OSU, played terrible vs. SF. We still haven't played what I would consider a good team yet. There are still question marks with this team, but we are much improved, which I give Johnson and the staff credit for. I'll forever wish we wouldn't have backed out of the Vegas event.
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For a team that is probably topping out at an NIT appearance....which would be a big improvement over last year.....Mizzou being the worst loss on the schedule is nothing.

And get over the SOS. The team is 3-1 so far in Big Ten play.
 


stocker08 said:
For a team that is probably topping out at an NIT appearance....which would be a big improvement over last year.....Mizzou being the worst loss on the schedule is nothing.

And get over the SOS. The team is 3-1 so far in Big Ten play.
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And they are about 14-1 against the spread which means they are probably better than people think.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
8, but I don't think a number is needed. They are improving and barring injury they will be just fine and he will keep his job.
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Agree. There's no doubt that this team is significantly improved from last year....and Johnson should be looking at bringing back almost every significant contributor (with Garcia as a ?). It would take a pretty big meltdown from how the team is playing right now to justify shutting it down now.
 

stocker08 said:
For a team that is probably topping out at an NIT appearance....which would be a big improvement over last year.....Mizzou being the worst loss on the schedule is nothing.

And get over the SOS. The team is 3-1 so far in Big Ten play.
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How can I overlook the SOS when that's a large reason why the record is what it is? We are 3-3 against the first 3 quadrants. Missouri is a bad loss and getting worse the longer we get into the season. I don't understand the need for people to defend that loss continually. Its a bad loss, just is what it is.
 

There is a number, but with the current play in the B1G, it may be getting higher.

In the end, it’s a feel/momentum decision.

Vote in Ben’s favor: He might be the only coach I’ve ever heard of to have a player leave the team for personal reasons and actually return! That alone says something!
 

Today seems like a good day to burn a bridge or two

The one with old wood creaking that would burn away right on cue

I try to be not like that but some people really suck

Some people need to get the axing chalk it up to bad luck

Beautiful disaster

Link
 

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