Ben Johnson is a Disaster

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GopherWeatherGuy said:
It's year 3, there is absolutely a number of wins they need to get to. You've even alluded to it in your previous posts. So what do you think that is? I've asked you and other posters first, but none of you will give me a number. I'll happily share my thoughts after you answer that question.

Just looking better after two disasterous years isn't enough. 3 BIG wins isn't enough either, which is what they have today. So yes, I do think Ben should and will get fired if he doesn't reach a certain number of wins this season.
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Not be in Weakling Wednesday, however many wins that takes and he should be back. Guessing it will be around 7 wins needed to stay out of playing that day.
It is year 3, and years 1 and 2 were not good, but I put more of those years on Coyle than B Johnson. I know you aren't going to like the reason, but it is true. He had never been a head coach before (that is not his fault for accepting the job) He has had a ton to learn in his 2.5 years here. It been some really rough bball to watch at times in those first two years - more so last year due to the youth that played - but he's continued to stay the course and stick to whatever his plan has been. He's learned on the job and so far this year has the team headed in the right direction. He's also had players who do the right things in the classroom and off the court. For all those reasons a fourth year should be given if he can have them only practicing on WW at the BIG tourney.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
It's year 3, there is absolutely a number of wins they need to get to. You've even alluded to it in your previous posts. So what do you think that is? I've asked you and other posters first, but none of you will give me a number. I'll happily share my thoughts after you answer that question.

Just looking better after two disasterous years isn't enough. 3 BIG wins isn't enough either, which is what they have today. So yes, I do think Ben should and will get fired if he doesn't reach a certain number of wins this season.
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I have already gone on record many times with why I don't like pinning a coaches job status to a particular win total because there are too many factors involved to say you must win X # of games this year to save your job.

But based on where we are at right now and in what appears to be a pretty mediocre Big Ten this year, I would say anything less than 8-10 conference wins would be disappointing and potentially grounds for making a coaching change. Essentially need to win a majority of the remaining home games to reach that threshold which should be doable as long as the key players stays healthy.
 

Gophers7633 said:
How can I overlook the SOS when that's a large reason why the record is what it is? We are 3-3 against the first 3 quadrants. Missouri is a bad loss and getting worse the longer we get into the season. I don't understand the need for people to defend that loss continually. Its a bad loss, just is what it is.
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Mizzou is a bad loss for a top 25.....tournament team. For a Gophers team that was last in the conference two years in a row and is probably looking more like an NIT berth than an NCAA birth....that is not that bad a loss by itself. Plenty of tournament teams this year will have a loss that is worse than a loss to Mizzou.
 

Gophers7633 said:
How can I overlook the SOS when that's a large reason why the record is what it is? We are 3-3 against the first 3 quadrants. Missouri is a bad loss and getting worse the longer we get into the season. I don't understand the need for people to defend that loss continually. Its a bad loss, just is what it is.
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The reason people defend that loss some is because we were dominating that game before the team fell apart in a way I honestly don't think they would if put in the same situation today.

It would have been one thing if Missouri had dominated us but that wasn't the case. It was a massive choke job on the part of the Gophers to let them back into a game that should have been out of reach.

As for SOS being the reason the record is what it is.....it certainly is a factor......but it wasn't like we were squeaking by those bad teams. They were blowouts most nights which is what good teams do to bad teams. The 3-1 start to conference play confirms that it wasn't all smoke and mirrors in the OOC portion of the schedule. This team is improved.
 

GFBfan said:
Not be in Weakling Wednesday, however many wins that takes and he should be back. Guessing it will be around 7 wins needed to stay out of playing that day.
It is year 3, and years 1 and 2 were not good, but I put more of those years on Coyle than B Johnson. I know you aren't going to like the reason, but it is true. He had never been a head coach before (that is not his fault for accepting the job) He has had a ton to learn in his 2.5 years here. It been some really rough bball to watch at times in those first two years - more so last year due to the youth that played - but he's continued to stay the course and stick to whatever his plan has been. He's learned on the job and so far this year has the team headed in the right direction. He's also had players who do the right things in the classroom and off the court. For all those reasons a fourth year should be given if he can have them only practicing on WW at the BIG tourney.
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I think people can just accept years 1 and 2 as results of how Ben is being allowed to build the program and injuries.

Year 1 was a new coach with zero experience to sell to transfers. He brought in 2 HS kids and 7 Transfers.

Year 2 he brought in 5 HS kids and 3 transfers. Garcia still here and starting

Year 3 he brought in 2 HS kids and 3 transfers (Wilson is a needed practice body)

Year 4 2 HS guys signed and may only need 1-3 transfers if people stick around.

Stability is going to be key in this program going forward.
 


stocker08 said:
Mizzou is a bad loss for a top 25.....tournament team. For a Gophers team that was last in the conference two years in a row and is probably looking more like an NIT berth than an NCAA birth....that is not that bad a loss by itself. Plenty of tournament teams this year will have a loss that is worse than a loss to Mizzou.
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Missouri isn't a top-100 team. They are by every metric bad. This is really the overlying issue that I have. We've been so bad, that because we have no expectation, losing a home game to a bad team is being defended. Missouri is bad, just because we aren't a tournament or top 25 team, doesn't make them or the loss any less bad.
 

Gophers7633 said:
Missouri isn't a top-100 team. They are by every metric bad. This is really the overlying issue that I have. We've been so bad, that because we have no expectation, losing a home game to a bad team is being defended. Missouri is bad, just because we aren't a tournament or top 25 team, doesn't make them or the loss any less bad.
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You are right....the loss shouldn't have happened but you need to move on. We had a huge lead, got sloppy and complacent and let them back into the game. It was the 3rd game of the year, Hawkins and Mitchell were not playing anywhere near the level they are playing at right now.

It absolutely was a game we should have won and didn't. And will say again, if we were in the same situation with Missouri right now that we were in that night there is zero chance they would have been able to come back against us.
 





MNVCGUY said:
You are right....the loss shouldn't have happened but you need to move on. We had a huge lead, got sloppy and complacent and let them back into the game. It was the 3rd game of the year, Hawkins and Mitchell were not playing anywhere near the level they are playing at right now.

It absolutely was a game we should have won and didn't. And will say again, if we were in the same situation with Missouri right now that we were in that night there is zero chance they would have been able to come back against us.
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I didn't originally bring back up the loss to Missouri. There's been plenty of people defending it. Rather than say what it is. A bad loss.
 

Gophers7633 said:
Missouri isn't a top-100 team. They are by every metric bad. This is really the overlying issue that I have. We've been so bad, that because we have no expectation, losing a home game to a bad team is being defended. Missouri is bad, just because we aren't a tournament or top 25 team, doesn't make them or the loss any less bad.
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Out of 363 D1 teams. Again.....that is bad loss for an expected tournament team. But it's far from a terrible loss.....especially for a team that was picked to finish at the bottom of the Big Ten once again. Point is that many NCAA Tournament teams will have losses as bad or worse than Mizzou. While I don't think they are very good.....I also don't think they are anywhere near terrible.....like DePaul last year (and this year I suppose).
 

MaxyJR1 said:
I think people can just accept years 1 and 2 as results of how Ben is being allowed to build the program and injuries.

Year 1 was a new coach with zero experience to sell to transfers. He brought in 2 HS kids and 7 Transfers.

Year 2 he brought in 5 HS kids and 3 transfers. Garcia still here and starting

Year 3 he brought in 2 HS kids and 3 transfers (Wilson is a needed practice body)

Year 4 2 HS guys signed and may only need 1-3 transfers if people stick around.

Stability is going to be key in this program going forward.
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You can't just accept the disasterous results in years 1 and 2 when other comparable coaches have done significantly better in years 1 and 2 while inheriting similar situations.

Heading into this year we still lost 3 of our 5 starters from last year, is that stability? It's virtually a given they will lose multiple major contributors off of this years team heading into next season as well, and it will happen every year going forward regardless of the coach.
 

Gophers7633 said:
I didn't originally bring back up the loss to Missouri. There's been plenty of people defending it. Rather than say what it is. A bad loss.
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Yes you did. Despite winning Big Ten games.....you continue to bring up SOS and the single bad loss which happened to be the third game of the year.
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
You can't just accept the disasterous results in years 1 and 2 when other comparable coaches have done significantly better in years 1 and 2 while inheriting similar situations.

Heading into this year we still lost 3 of our 5 starters from last year, is that stability? It's virtually a given they will lose multiple major contributors off of this years team heading into next season as well, and it will happen every year going forward regardless of the coach.
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Who is comparable to the Ben? Who are we missing from last years starting line-up? Battle? Maybe but is sounds like it had become Garcia's team and Battle left.
 

stocker08 said:
Out of 363 D1 teams. Again.....that is bad loss for an expected tournament team. But it's far from a terrible loss.....especially for a team that was picked to finish at the bottom of the Big Ten once again. Point is that many NCAA Tournament teams will have losses as bad or worse than Mizzou. While I don't think they are very good.....I also don't think they are anywhere near terrible.....like DePaul last year (and this year I suppose).
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This

The better we play the more frustrating that loss becomes because it was a game we were dominating and should have won. But the handful still hung up on that game are acting like we lost to the Little Sisters of the Poor. Missouri is having their struggles but they are still an SEC team and lost to Kansas by 9 on the road.

Bad/Frustrating loss given how the game played out but in the grand scheme of things this is not a loss people should be getting hung up on. The San Francisco loss was worse in my mind because we didn't show up and got outplayed for the entire game.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
You can't just accept the disasterous results in years 1 and 2 when other comparable coaches have done significantly better in years 1 and 2 while inheriting similar situations.

Heading into this year we still lost 3 of our 5 starters from last year, is that stability? It's virtually a given they will lose multiple major contributors off of this years team heading into next season as well, and it will happen every year going forward regardless of the coach.
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Sure you can. Year 1 and 2 are in the past. Where is the team right now and which way are they trending? We may not lose any big contributors off this team other than Garcia.
 

stocker08 said:
Out of 363 D1 teams. Again.....that is bad loss for an expected tournament team. But it's far from a terrible loss.....especially for a team that was picked to finish at the bottom of the Big Ten once again. Point is that many NCAA Tournament teams will have losses as bad or worse than Mizzou. While I don't think they are very good.....I also don't think they are anywhere near terrible.....like DePaul last year (and this year I suppose).
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So because we were expected to be bad, it's okay to lose to bad teams? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And yes, there are varying levels of ineptitude. They obviously aren't as bad as DePaul, UL or ND, but they are a bad team.
 



MNVCGUY said:
I have already gone on record many times with why I don't like pinning a coaches job status to a particular win total because there are too many factors involved to say you must win X # of games this year to save your job.

But based on where we are at right now and in what appears to be a pretty mediocre Big Ten this year, I would say anything less than 8-10 conference wins would be disappointing and potentially grounds for making a coaching change. Essentially need to win a majority of the remaining home games to reach that threshold which should be doable as long as the key players stays healthy.
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I think that's fair. Anything at 7 wins or less should be an automatic dismissal. That's still a weakling Wednesday team most years.

8-9 is the grey area. I still think he should be gone, but I can see why the U and their lack of commitment to winning would give him another year.

10 is my minimum to keep his job, and that would be me caving, and what I and many others said before Ben was hired, that a new coach should be able to make the NCAA tournament once in his first 3 years here. Especially now that the transfer portal allows coaches to rebuild in one year, and that has been proven all over the country over the last 3 years.

10 won't get them into the NCAA tournament though. 10 might not even get them into the NIT. They will need at least 12-13 wins to have a shot at the NCAA tournament.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
I think that's fair. Anything at 7 wins or less should be an automatic dismissal. That's still a weakling Wednesday team most years.

8-9 is the grey area. I still think he should be gone, but I can see why the U and their lack of commitment to winning would give him another year.

10 is my minimum to keep his job, and that would be me caving, and what I and many others said before Ben was hired, that a new coach should be able to make the NCAA tournament once in his first 3 years here. Especially now that the transfer portal allows coaches to rebuild in one year, and that has been proven all over the country over the last 3 years.

10 won't get them into the NCAA tournament though. 10 might not even get them into the NIT. They will need at least 12-13 wins to have a shot at the NCAA tournament.
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Blah, blah, blah, whatever. I don't know why you think anyone would care. Everyone knows who you are and what you think.
 


MNVCGUY said:
The reason people defend that loss some is because we were dominating that game before the team fell apart in a way I honestly don't think they would if put in the same situation today.

It would have been one thing if Missouri had dominated us but that wasn't the case. It was a massive choke job on the part of the Gophers to let them back into a game that should have been out of reach.

As for SOS being the reason the record is what it is.....it certainly is a factor......but it wasn't like we were squeaking by those bad teams. They were blowouts most nights which is what good teams do to bad teams. The 3-1 start to conference play confirms that it wasn't all smoke and mirrors in the OOC portion of the schedule. This team is improved.
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MNVCGUY -- I think your posts on this topic (in particular) have been very reasonable and defensible over the last couple weeks. I appreciate your tone and although I don't always agree, you have made a number of good posts.

I personally think Ben Johnson will get a 4th year barring an absolute collapse in the last 16 conference games. Even though I hated the nonconference scheduling, he has beaten most of the lousy teams soundly and has had a nice start to the conference season. I'd like to see how the first 10 games play out before I draw a better conclusion but I was admittedly surprised he beat both Michigan AND Maryland this week.

Richard Pitino's overall conference record was always cited on this board as a reason to support his dismissal. A couple years (3rd year in particular) were an albatross on his overall record. I don't think Ben Johnson should get a pass on the first two years and/or the defection of all the players when he was given the job. As such, the first two years will also be an albatross (fairly or unfairly) on Ben Johnson. But the recent games would suggest he is trending in the right direction. Is it enough? I guess time will tell.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
I think that's fair. Anything at 7 wins or less should be an automatic dismissal. That's still a weakling Wednesday team most years.

8-9 is the grey area. I still think he should be gone, but I can see why the U and their lack of commitment to winning would give him another year.

10 is my minimum to keep his job, and that would be me caving, and what I and many others said before Ben was hired, that a new coach should be able to make the NCAA tournament once in his first 3 years here. Especially now that the transfer portal allows coaches to rebuild in one year, and that has been proven all over the country over the last 3 years.

10 won't get them into the NCAA tournament though. 10 might not even get them into the NIT. They will need at least 12-13 wins to have a shot at the NCAA tournament.
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I get the pain from the last 2 years but not the carrying it forward. Trajectory is the key indicator for fans and new recruits. 8-9 wins would be a huge boost for the program with next year would have huge interest and expectations with the potential to add even better talent from the portal. We would be potentially setup for a really-fun season. With a new guy there are no guarantees.

It is like you got hired at your job, the first 2 years sucked but now your third year you got promoted and love your job. But instead of leaning into your great career fortune you start complaining on how the average of the 3 years suck and other jobs could do it for you more quickly. Sure they could pal.

If Ben gets 8-9 wins this year (especially with a marquee win or two) he has my support for the next year. ...and this team can get 8-9 wins.
 


TwistingMyMelon said:
Blah, blah, blah, whatever. I don't know why you think anyone would care. Everyone knows who you are and what you think.
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Are you okay, how is this a response? I don't agree with GWG all the time but his opinions are his own and he has a right to comment just as much as anyone else. Put him on ignore if you are becoming personally attached to his opinions. You clearly take no value from anything he says.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
I think that's fair. Anything at 7 wins or less should be an automatic dismissal. That's still a weakling Wednesday team most years.

8-9 is the grey area. I still think he should be gone, but I can see why the U and their lack of commitment to winning would give him another year.

10 is my minimum to keep his job, and that would be me caving, and what I and many others said before Ben was hired, that a new coach should be able to make the NCAA tournament once in his first 3 years here. Especially now that the transfer portal allows coaches to rebuild in one year, and that has been proven all over the country over the last 3 years.

10 won't get them into the NCAA tournament though. 10 might not even get them into the NIT. They will need at least 12-13 wins to have a shot at the NCAA tournament.
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Coach K’s early years as head coach:
Just say’in
Career Coaching Record
Year School Overall
1980 Army 9-17
1981 Duke 17-13
1982 Duke 10-17
1983 Duke 11-17
 

Gophers7633 said:
So because we were expected to be bad, it's okay to lose to bad teams? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And yes, there are varying levels of ineptitude. They obviously aren't as bad as DePaul, UL or ND, but they are a bad team.
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No team wants to lose game.....especially to teams that are worse than they are....which I think Mizzou qualifies as. But in a long NCAA basketball season.....even tournament teams lose games that they are favored in. Happens all the time. We didn't lose to a Chicago State or a Drexel. We didn't lose to a 300 RPI team. We lost to an SEC team that managed to keep within single digits of Kansas. Nothing even remotely close to an embarrassing loss on paper.
 



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