Ben Johnson is a Disaster

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GFBfan said:
Not be in Weakling Wednesday, however many wins that takes and he should be back. Guessing it will be around 7 wins needed to stay out of playing that day.
It is year 3, and years 1 and 2 were not good, but I put more of those years on Coyle than B Johnson. I know you aren't going to like the reason, but it is true. He had never been a head coach before (that is not his fault for accepting the job) He has had a ton to learn in his 2.5 years here. It been some really rough bball to watch at times in those first two years - more so last year due to the youth that played - but he's continued to stay the course and stick to whatever his plan has been. He's learned on the job and so far this year has the team headed in the right direction. He's also had players who do the right things in the classroom and off the court. For all those reasons a fourth year should be given if he can have them only practicing on WW at the BIG tourney.
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There is no way 7-13 in your 3rd year in a high major conference should get you a 4th season. He would be 13-46 in conference play in your hypothetical scenario. Being horrible beyond belief through your first two seasons doesn't make 7-13 some sort of accomplishment, especially when you are recruiting at the bottom of the conference as well. I think it's far more likely he is back under your scenario than not (and I am sure we're all hoping the season turns out better than that), but it never would have been considered acceptable the day he was hired and it never would be tolerated anywhere else. Things get bad and our response is just to continually lower the bar. Over and over again.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
If you ignore the first 2 years, there is no trend.
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Where did I say to ignore it? I said that year 1/2 were in the past. The important thing is where the team is now.....and where they could be next year.

But I get that you need to live in the past in order to continue with your vendetta against Johnson.
 

EG#9 said:
There is no way 7-13 in your 3rd year in a high major conference should get you a 4th season. He would be 13-46 in conference play in your hypothetical scenario. Being horrible beyond belief through your first two seasons doesn't make 7-13 some sort of accomplishment, especially when you are recruiting at the bottom of the conference as well. I think it's far more likely he is back under your scenario than not (and I am sure we're all hoping the season turns out better than that), but it never would have been considered acceptable the day he was hired and it never would be tolerated anywhere else. Things get bad and our response is just to continually lower the bar. Over and over again.
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Johnson's first HS class were all freshman last year. Passing judgement halfway through their sophomore season is horribly short-sighted and nonsensical.....especially seeing as how Payne, JOJ, and Carrington all appear to be improving.
 


GopherWeatherGuy said:
With all of the data out there, and countless examples of coaches brought up in other threads, it's hard to believe anyone can still have this opinion.

Yes - all of the other P6 coaches hired at the same time as Ben or after, had the same challenges and roster turnover he had. They either lost the majority of their roster to the transfer portal and brought in better players form the portal, or were able to recruit good players on the roster to stay and supplement them with better players from the portal.

Ben did neither in year 1. That's 100% on him and no one else.
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You’re forgetting one thing in your data.
 


Gophers7633 said:
Missouri isn't a top-100 team. They are by every metric bad. This is really the overlying issue that I have. We've been so bad, that because we have no expectation, losing a home game to a bad team is being defended. Missouri is bad, just because we aren't a tournament or top 25 team, doesn't make them or the loss any less bad.
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This obsession with the Missouri loss is bordering on OCD levels of unhealthy.

Move the F on....you've made your point. I'm certain EVERYONE understands the Missouri meltdown was bad. Got it.
 

EG#9 said:
There is no way 7-13 in your 3rd year in a high major conference should get you a 4th season. He would be 13-46 in conference play in your hypothetical scenario. Being horrible beyond belief through your first two seasons doesn't make 7-13 some sort of accomplishment, especially when you are recruiting at the bottom of the conference as well. I think it's far more likely he is back under your scenario than not (and I am sure we're all hoping the season turns out better than that), but it never would have been considered acceptable the day he was hired and it never would be tolerated anywhere else. Things get bad and our response is just to continually lower the bar. Over and over again.
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I would agree with you for situations in which an experienced head coach takes over a program. To me a first time ever head coach should have a longer leash to establish himself. I know you and others don’t buy into that philosophy, but that is what the Gopher situation is. BJ didn’t choose that, Mark Coyle did.
Season 1 was a pleasant surprise through about the middle of Jan. When injuries and the wear and tear of the BIG season exposed the lack of quality depth. Season 2 was a disappointment from the get go, but the improvement of Payne, Carrington and JOJ was a slight glimmer of positivity.

Not being in WW in year 3 no matter what it takes for the number of BIG victories is the bar for this year. Along with that, the coach should show positive signs in recruiting and retaining talent and an ability to coach up his team. I believe that is happening and look forward to seeing what happens the rest of this season, the off season and into next year with BJ as the coach - as long as we’re not playing on WW.
You and others can continue to be pissed that he’s our coach and post on how much of a disaster the first two years were.
 



DarthGopher said:
This obsession with the Missouri loss is bordering on OCD levels of unhealthy.

Move the F on....you've made your point. I'm certain EVERYONE understands the Missouri meltdown was bad. Got it.
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This will be my last post on it...unless more people start defending it again.
 



formerlybis said:
The discussion here would be a lot different if Michigan makes their wide open three at the end of that game....
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But they didn't so for a nice change of pace we actually get to have some positive discussions about Gopher Basketball as opposed to the constant negativity that has been this board for the past 2 seasons. Enjoy it while we can....I am sure the full on negativity is just a loss away. :)
 




IF you hire an inexperienced coach, and don’t expect to have a tough learning curve, the only one wrong is YOU. If you do go that route then two things must be accepted, and one hopefully expected.

The two mandatory ones are patience and reality. You sign a young inexperienced coach and don’t have these two as part of your operating philosophy, then it’s the administrator who did the hiring is the one underperforming.

The other one is the expectation at the end of a probably painful acclimation period you will end up with a qualified individual. In the Gophers case someone who is attached and loyal to the U, not just looking for the next gig. Also someone who can become the go to coach for the top instate recruits, someone who can close the borders. After all that’s done the W/L record should take care of itself. Is BJ the guy? He seems to have a chance to be. I have noticed he is a better coach, since he has some better players!

Much is in the eye of the beholder. When Tubby came up here from Kentucky I ran into a guy from Kentucky on Mackinaw Island. He was ecstatic that Tubby was gone, and let me know in no uncertain terms that we in the Great North were in for a tough time. I on the other hand thought we had made at the minimum a very respectable hire. Truth be told, at the end of the following 5 year period, I doubt either one of us would have been quite as adamant in our opinion!
 

Gopheritnow said:
IF you hire an inexperienced coach, and don’t expect to have a tough learning curve, the only one wrong is YOU. If you do go that route then two things must be accepted, and one hopefully expected.

The two mandatory ones are patience and reality. You sign a young inexperienced coach and don’t have these two as part of your operating philosophy, then it’s the administrator who did the hiring is the one underperforming.

The other one is the expectation at the end of a probably painful acclimation period you will end up with a qualified individual. In the Gophers case someone who is attached and loyal to the U, not just looking for the next gig. Also someone who can become the go to coach for the top instate recruits, someone who can close the borders. After all that’s done the W/L record should take care of itself. Is BJ the guy? He seems to have a chance to be. I have noticed he is a better coach, since he has some better players!

Much is in the eye of the beholder. When Tubby came up here from Kentucky I ran into a guy from Kentucky on Mackinaw Island. He was ecstatic that Tubby was gone, and let me know in no uncertain terms that we in the Great North were in for a tough time. I on the other hand thought we had made at the minimum a very respectable hire. Truth be told, at the end of the following 5 year period, I doubt either one of us would have been quite as adamant in our opinion!
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Thank you for some wisdom.

Continually berating CBJ, is akin to “that driver” who always lays on the horn - it accomplishes nothing, other than create noise and and air of superiority in the mind of the honker.

We understood the first honk, kiddos.
 
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to be fair, I think any evaluation of the coach needs to be put in some context.
since the Final 4 team in '96-97 there have been 26 seasons of men's basketball at the University of Minnesota.

here is a breakdown of the numbers of Conference victories per season
2 wins - 2x
3 wins - 2x
4 wins - 3x
5 wins - 2x
6 wins - 5x
7 wins - 0x
8 wins - 6x
9 wins - 4x
10 wins - 1x
11 wins - 1x

in 26 seasons, the average (mean) # of conference victories per season is 6.65
the median # of conference victories is 6

a further breakdown-
10 seasons with a 16-gm conf schedule - avg victories 6.1 (avg record 6.1-9.9)
11 seasons with an 18-gm conf schedule - avg victories 7.2 (avg record 7.2-10.8)
5 seasons with a 20-gm conf schedule - avg victories 5.8 (avg record 5.8-14.0)*

Ben Johnson 1st two full seasons avg record 3.0 -16.5*

* (1 season played 19 games)
 

formerlybis said:
The discussion here would be a lot different if Michigan makes their wide open three at the end of that game....
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Yep, we would have then been discussing how great of a drive and dish from Hawkins to Garcia for a lay in at the buzzer was and what a nicely designed play CBJ drew up.
 


Gopher_In_NYC said:
Thank you for some wisdom.

Continually berating CBJ, is akin to “that driver” who always lays on the horn - it accomplishes nothing, other than create noise and and air of superiority in the mind of the honker.

We understood the first honk, kiddos.
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There are some that seem to think those who don't want to dwell on the first two years are somehow forgiving them or acting like they didn't happen.
 


stocker08 said:
No team wants to lose game.....especially to teams that are worse than they are....which I think Mizzou qualifies as. But in a long NCAA basketball season.....even tournament teams lose games that they are favored in. Happens all the time. We didn't lose to a Chicago State or a Drexel. We didn't lose to a 300 RPI team. We lost to an SEC team that managed to keep within single digits of Kansas. Nothing even remotely close to an embarrassing loss on paper.
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On face value, a loss to Mizzou does not look too bad. Most fans agree that they are generally OK with losing to the teams we are supposed to lose to and win the games we are supposed to win. IE team meets expectations. Now let's talk about HOW we lost that game. 20-point lead with 11 to go. 14-point lead with 7 to go. What did we do? Choked it away. THAT is the problem. The HOW we lost. I would be willing to bet if we gave Macalester a 20-point lead on us with 11 to go they would hold on to beat us.
 

Big Dawg said:
On face value, a loss to Mizzou does not look too bad. Most fans agree that they are generally OK with losing to the teams we are supposed to lose to and win the games we are supposed to win. IE team meets expectations. Now let's talk about HOW we lost that game. 20-point lead with 11 to go. 14-point lead with 7 to go. What did we do? Choked it away. THAT is the problem. The HOW we lost. I would be willing to bet if we gave Macalester a 20-point lead on us with 11 to go they would hold on to beat us.
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It's clear they learned from it.... now we avoid the 20 pt lead and just keep it close the whole time. Problem solved.
 

Big Dawg said:
On face value, a loss to Mizzou does not look too bad. Most fans agree that they are generally OK with losing to the teams we are supposed to lose to and win the games we are supposed to win. IE team meets expectations. Now let's talk about HOW we lost that game. 20-point lead with 11 to go. 14-point lead with 7 to go. What did we do? Choked it away. THAT is the problem. The HOW we lost. I would be willing to bet if we gave Macalester a 20-point lead on us with 11 to go they would hold on to beat us.
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But at some point you have to move on from a game like that. It was a disappointing loss because it shouldn't have happened, but it did. If it happens one time you chalk it up to a choke job where everything that can go wrong did. If it keeps happening over and over again then you have a much more serious issue.

If you gave the Gopher team playing the way they are playing right now that same lead against Missouri I guarantee the comeback doesn't happen. Hawkins and Mitchell are playing at a much higher level than they were early in the season. In a weird sort of way that loss probably helped the team in the grand scheme of things.
 


Big Dawg said:
On face value, a loss to Mizzou does not look too bad. Most fans agree that they are generally OK with losing to the teams we are supposed to lose to and win the games we are supposed to win. IE team meets expectations. Now let's talk about HOW we lost that game. 20-point lead with 11 to go. 14-point lead with 7 to go. What did we do? Choked it away. THAT is the problem. The HOW we lost. I would be willing to bet if we gave Macalester a 20-point lead on us with 11 to go they would hold on to beat us.
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I completely agree with you. That game was a gut punch. It was also our third game of the year.....and nearly half our minutes were going to guys who either weren't on the team last year or didn't play due to injury. Payne was also limited in that game.

Regardless.....not only is there zero question that this team is vastly improved over the team from the past two years.....but there's been noticeable improvement from just the beginning of the year until now. Hawkins was erratic and sloppy early on as he was getting his feet underneath him.....and is now playing like our team MVP.
 

stocker08 said:
I completely agree with you. That game was a gut punch. It was also our third game of the year.....and nearly half our minutes were going to guys who either weren't on the team last year or didn't play due to injury. Payne was also limited in that game.

Regardless.....not only is there zero question that this team is vastly improved over the team from the past two years.....but there's been noticeable improvement from just the beginning of the year until now. Hawkins was erratic and sloppy early on as he was getting his feet underneath him.....and is now playing like our team MVP.
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Honestly, I'm over Missouri.

It was brutal, and it felt like the season was crashing at the time. But the fact that we are finishing close to Big Ten games proves there was a valuable lesson in that game.

It was a quad 3 loss. It could have been a quad 3 win—whoop-de-do. It doesn't do much for the resume if we win that game. And one Q3 loss also doesn't condemn a resume like a Q4 loss can.

Hawkins was still getting used to the new system. Ben benched him for the last few minutes of that game (which is even more crazy in hindsight).

I like our chances in close games down the stretch if Hawkins stays healthy. Plus, it seems like everyone else is also playing with more confidence.
 

A little over halfway through year 3 and the Gophers are 12-5, 3-3 in the B1G and have played the 301st ranked schedule to date according to KenPom. The next closest B1G team is Maryland at 146.

The Gophers just gave Iowa their first road win of the season, and they have beaten the Gophers 3 straight times in Minneapolis for the first time in 70 years.

10 of the final 14 games are against teams ranked in KenPom's top 55. Where does it go from here?
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
Thank you for some wisdom.

Continually berating CBJ, is akin to “that driver” who always lays on the horn - it accomplishes nothing, other than create noise and and air of superiority in the mind of the honker.

We understood the first honk, kiddos.
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But you still haven't moved. You're still sitting there like we're in rainbow-and-unicorn land, when we clearly are not.

The honking is the demand for action. If you are just sitting there with your feelings, then you are not displaying a sense of urgency in your actions. This is sports and in sports results matter, not feelings.

Your ridiculous "we heard you the first time" defense is the aloof, disingenuous and self-absorbed response from someone who is out of their depth and unwilling to get out of the way thanks to their overinflated sense of self-importance. You are the "get out of the way" in the "lead, follow or get out of the way" leadership model. Impeding leadership is not leadership.

Its not that hard to understand that winning is the bottom line and the rest is shenanigans.
 


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