Ben Johnson is a Disaster

[bga1]

You bring up some players that have done well as freshman. I said most, not all. Sorry for belief in development of players and not believing it’s an excuse

We see player development but it is rare in the past 20 years that we have seen Clem style player development. Since he left- you pretty much knew year one that they either could make it at this level or not. Damien Johnson is one exception but I can recall few others.

 

[Gophers7633]

I'm starting to get it. You just started watching basketball and are learning on the go. Might want to check out KSU and Missouri seasons in the past couple decades. Both have had stretches of success that Minnesota hasn't come close to.

Since 2010 on Missouri: ONE tournament win, ONE year where they finished ranked, only twice have they finished with a winning conference record since they joined the SEC, SIX times in the last decade, they finished below .500 overall, only THREE tournament appearances in the last decade. I'd put the Gophers up against that.

KSU was a better under Weber, but they still only managed 3 tournament wins during his tenure(2013-2022), which is only one more than the Gophers during that same time period. But KSU had been awful the last 3 seasons, prior to Tang arriving this season. He had to flip the entire roster.

 

[Gopherfan84]

We see player development but it is rare in the past 20 years that we have seen Clem style player development. Since he left- you pretty much knew year one that they either could make it at this level or not. Damien Johnson is one exception but I can recall few others.

That’s also part of why our program currently is where it is. NW developed their guards, Rutgers did too. It can be done and good programs do it. If we don’t, we will stay where we are imo

 

[skiumah1]

demanding

Worried about this most. I think Ben is a smart guy with charisma, but he's gotta hold these guys accountable. Refs as well. Demand more respect, can't be soft.

 

[CentralGopher]

What timeline do you mean for that? Do you mean canned after this season or inevitable the axe falls next season -- or something else?

I don’t really know the timeline here but think this isn’t going to work out long term unless he starts showing results now. What’s the incentive for good players to come here? It’s not NIL money and so far it doesn’t look like we will be making the tournament next year either.

 

[bga1]

That’s also part of why our program currently is where it is. NW developed their guards, Rutgers did too. It can be done and good programs do it. If we don’t, we will stay where we are imo

When a guy would come in under Clem- 4 years later they would leave with a different body- ripped. This was a repeating theme, how strong his guys got and I think that's a big thing, in addition to the other skills. When you are strong you are also more confident and not a lot of fun to play against... It's too early to tell on Ben, but I hope he insists on this as part of the deal.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

Worried about this most. I think Ben is a smart guy with charisma, but he's gotta hold these guys accountable. Refs as well. Demand more respect, can't be soft.

Charisma?

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

Payne has a shot to be all conference, the rest I agree have lower ceilings. We need those guys too and will help. Wisconsin and other programs do it with lower rated guys. It can be done with proper development. We will see if that happens

Payne would not be seeing the floor on most teams in the big10 as a freshmen…ok, maybe 10 min a game. He is a turnover machine and a putrid ft shooter. These would keep him buried on the bench while he develops in practice. We wouldn’t even be seeing him on a regular ten. This is a bad take.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

Since 2010 on Missouri: ONE tournament win, ONE year where they finished ranked, only twice have they finished with a winning conference record since they joined the SEC, SIX times in the last decade, they finished below .500 overall, only THREE tournament appearances in the last decade. I'd put the Gophers up against that.

KSU was a better under Weber, but they still only managed 3 tournament wins during his tenure(2013-2022), which is only one more than the Gophers during that same time period. But KSU had been awful the last 3 seasons, prior to Tang arriving this season. He had to flip the entire roster.

I was told these are traditional blue bloods over the past ten years!

 

[Bad Gopher]

Payne would not be seeing the floor on most teams in the big10 as a freshmen…ok, maybe 10 min a game. He is a turnover machine and a putrid ft shooter. These would keep him buried on the bench while he develops in practice. We wouldn’t even be seeing him on a regular ten. This is a bad take.

Word. Cam Heide would be starting for the Gophers.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

I'm curious stocker.....why are you so vehemently defending Johnson to the point you are disparaging other coaches whom are clearly more accomplished?

I'm curious why you or anyone else even attempt to engage in conversation with that poster. It's obvious his ignores or glosses over the points/data you guys provide, and just puts his fingers in his ear and screams the same thing over and over.

I don't know squat about the Gophers basketball teams, men's or women's, so I came to the boards to see how things are going. I'll say this, the arguments posters are making for Johnson to be replaced are FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR stronger than the stuff being said by those defending Johnson.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Payne would not be seeing the floor on most teams in the big10 as a freshmen…ok, maybe 10 min a game. He is a turnover machine and a putrid ft shooter. These would keep him buried on the bench while he develops in practice. We wouldn’t even be seeing him on a regular ten. This is a bad take.

You speak of a freshman playing 10 minutes like it’s bad. Dain Dainja didn’t play at all as a freshman and look at him now. Steven Crowl didn’t play as a freshman. Zach Edey played 10-15 mins a game. Bigs don’t come in and have to play 20+ minutes and be dominant to be a good post.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

You bring up some players that have done well as freshman. I said most, not all. Sorry for belief in development of players and not believing it’s an excuse

You used NW as an example, Buie averaged over 10 ppg as a FR. Audige started at W&M and averaged 10 as a freshman there, then jumped to NW and averaged 13 ppg as a sophomore. These guys were good from day 1.

Rutgers best players are Omoruyi, who was a big time recruit and started slow, but made a huge jump his 2nd year, and Spencer who transferred in. The rest of their guys are slower developing, but they all play D. Some of Pikiell's early recruits were also good right away as freshman, like Geo Baker and Ron Harper Jr, but he's had quite a bit of success with transfers on top of those.

In basketball, it only takes 1-2 years to know if you have a good player, and 2-3 to know if you have a good coach.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

You speak of a freshman playing 10 minutes like it’s bad. Dain Dainja didn’t play at all as a freshman and look at him now. Steven Crowl didn’t play as a freshman. Zach Edey played 10-15 mins a game. Bigs don’t come in and have to play 20+ minutes and be dominant to be a good post.

Ah last time I looked we aren’t Baylor competing for a national championship. I’d trade anyone on the team (including Evans) for Dainja. For Crowl, I think Gard develops players in a certain way. He doesn’t let them play unless they are ready (Payne ain’t ready me’boy). As for Edey… he was extremely raw and they had a potential B10 player of the year in Trevion Williams playing Center*Edey still played 14.6 min per game*

And I don’t think Crowl is that great. Dainja and Edey (especially Edey are in another stratosphere).

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

You used NW as an example, Buie averaged over 10 ppg as a FR. Audige started at W&M and averaged 10 as a freshman there, then jumped to NW and averaged 13 ppg as a sophomore. These guys were good from day 1.

Rutgers best players are Omoruyi, who was a big time recruit and started slow, but made a huge jump his 2nd year, and Spencer who transferred in. The rest of their guys are slower developing, but they all play D. Some of Pikiell's early recruits were also good right away as freshman, like Geo Baker and Ron Harper Jr, but he's had quite a bit of success with transfers on top of those.

In basketball, it only takes 1-2 years to know if you have a good player, and 2-3 to know if you have a good coach.

We don’t pass the eye test…flat out

 

[Gopherfan84]

You used NW as an example, Buie averaged over 10 ppg as a FR. Audige started at W&M and averaged 10 as a freshman there, then jumped to NW and averaged 13 ppg as a sophomore. These guys were good from day 1.

Rutgers best players are Omoruyi, who was a big time recruit and started slow, but made a huge jump his 2nd year, and Spencer who transferred in. The rest of their guys are slower developing, but they all play D. Some of Pikiell's early recruits were also good right away as freshman, like Geo Baker and Ron Harper Jr, but he's had quite a bit of success with transfers on top of those.

In basketball, it only takes 1-2 years to know if you have a good player, and 2-3 to know if you have a good coach.

I agree with the 1-2 years for players. None of these guys have completed a year yet. Mostly true on the coaches too. Hence the importance of next year.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Ah last time I looked we aren’t Baylor competing for a national championship. I’d trade anyone on the team (including Evans) for Dainja. For Crowl, I think Gard develops players in a certain way. He doesn’t let them play unless they are ready (Payne ain’t ready me’boy). As for Edey… he was extremely raw and they had a potential B10 player of the year in Trevion Williams playing Center*Edey still played 14.6 min per game*

And I don’t think Crowl is that great. Dainja and Edey (especially Edey are in another stratosphere).

I follow Purdue very closely. When Garcia is healthy, Payne played less. He’s been thrusted into a different role because of injuries, but he is very good. I saw Dianja, Crowl, and Payne in high school a lot. Payne’s right there, just see if he continues to develop. Most don’t come in as a freshman and dominate.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

I follow Purdue very closely. When Garcia is healthy, Payne played less. He’s been thrusted into a different role because of injuries, but he is very good. I saw Dianja, Crowl, and Payne in high school a lot. Payne’s right there, just see if he continues to develop. Most don’t come in as a freshman and dominate.

Then you don’t know elite basketball. Dainja can handle the ball and has great touch around the rim…Payne can dunk (that’s it). - they are not in the same planet of players.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Then you don’t know elite basketball. Dainja can handle the ball and has great touch around the rim…Payne can dunk (that’s it). - they are not in the same planet of players.

Correct different players indeed. Payne is more explosive, stronger, and a better defender. Dains nimbleness and craftiness around the hoop is something he’s had since HS. I’ll keep reading your brilliant posts and someday maybe learn the game better than my knowledge base from the multiple years I coached, played and hundreds of videos/clinics I’ve attended/watched.

 

[howeda7]

In basketball, it only takes 1-2 years to know if you have a good player, and 2-3 to know if you have a good coach.

Sometimes 1.5 is enough on the later.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

Most entertaining thread.

 

[bga1]

Then you don’t know elite basketball. Dainja can handle the ball and has great touch around the rim…Payne can dunk (that’s it). - they are not in the same planet of players.

You are comparing Payne in year one to Dainja who is in his third year out of HS. Payne will be doing more than dunking next year.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

Correct different players indeed. Payne is more explosive, stronger, and a better defender. Dains nimbleness and craftiness around the hoop is something he’s had since HS. I’ll keep reading your brilliant posts and someday maybe learn the game better than my knowledge base from the multiple years I coached, played and hundreds of videos/clinics I’ve attended/watched.

keep spending money on those clinics

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

You are comparing Payne in year one to Dainja who is in his third year out of HS. Payne will be doing more than dunking next year.

He better since Evans will be playing C.

There is nothing in the data that explains he will be comfortable more than 2 feet away from the hoop

 

[GopherPharmaBiz]

Part of the problem is that getting rid of Ben is an admittance that politically motivated decision making does not work. And at the U of M that is part of a larger strategy than just the mens basketball program. He’s gonna be here for awhile.

I think this is an important point.

I’d bet the Administration also fears the press saying “they gave the white guy (Pitino) 8 years and cut bait with Johnson after 3 years?!”

I think he’ll get at least four if not five years.

 

[Gopherfan84]

keep spending money on those clinics

I don’t coach anymore so it’s pointless.

He better since Evans will be playing C.

There is nothing in the data that explains he will be comfortable more than 2 feet away from the hoop

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I watched both in HS and saw their skillsets. They’ve reduced Payne’s responsibilities, just like Dains would’ve been. In HS Payne shot more 3s than Dain. I love analytics as much as the next guy, but they don’t tell the whole story with all young players.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

I don’t coach anymore so it’s pointless.

I watched both in HS and saw their skillsets. They’ve reduced Payne’s responsibilities, just like Dains would’ve been. In HS Payne shot more 3s than Dain. I love analytics as much as the next guy, but they don’t tell the whole story with all young players.

Payne should not be shooting 3s. He can't even hit 40% from the stripe. HS is not college basketball.

You know who also looked really good in HS basketball...Isaiah Dahlman. How was his MSU career?

 

[stocker08]

They were significantly improved from when he took over, with a slight improvement from year one to year two. And yes it didn't show in the win column, but they were improved in every metric out there. I'm able to look past wins and losses if there is some type of improvement. But there hasn't been. This whole season has been a shit show. We have no identity. We arent good on one side of the ball and the FR guards don't look like B1G level players.

I can appreciate a rebuild. It just shouldn't take five fucking years to be a competent team, especially in this era of college basketball.

I mean what is next year going to look like? What are reasonable expectations. To go 5-15 in B1G play? I know you're banking on other teams being worse, but being worse than we are is a huge drop for every other program in the B1G.

Sound significantly improved. How come they didn't win more games?

How have they been the last 15 years?

Why don't you look rather than ask questions.

 

[stocker08]

Since 2010 on Missouri: ONE tournament win, ONE year where they finished ranked, only twice have they finished with a winning conference record since they joined the SEC, SIX times in the last decade, they finished below .500 overall, only THREE tournament appearances in the last decade. I'd put the Gophers up against that.

KSU was a better under Weber, but they still only managed 3 tournament wins during his tenure(2013-2022), which is only one more than the Gophers during that same time period. But KSU had been awful the last 3 seasons, prior to Tang arriving this season. He had to flip the entire roster.

There's not a single (reasonable) person who'd compare the Gophers to either of these programs in the past couple of decades. Just another example of you stretching.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

Good ol' stocker is still ignoring the one aspect of the Rutgers coach that you guys have been hammering on for like, I dunno, a million pages in this thread?

Let's see if anyone is frustrated enough to try and explain it to him/her again, or if you guys have the fortitude to ignore said clown.

I bet someone replies, unfortunately.