Ben Johnson is a Disaster

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MNJay said:
You guys don't know anything about college basketball. Or you're closeted Badger fans. If you listen to what I say, you might learn something.

The ONLY thing that matters this year is getting our freshmen experience. Then next year we add 2 more good recruits. Then the year after is when we should look to win big.

Don't watch the games and get all emotional.

Last night was another good result. Ola-Joseph once again did well...11 points on 4/7 shooting and 5 rebounds. And Payne had 15 points on 6/6 shooting in 21 minutes. These are very good results at this early point. (Carrington did well last game...so it was nice to see Payne do well this game.)
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Sorry but you're delusional
 

Formerswish said:
That's certainly possible. There may be some times in which they could play together, but Payne would have to show he can shoot it a little. And with injuries and foul trouble, I don't mind having two capable centers on the squad.
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Here's where this is a different era - I think every team has this issue of trying to retain good depth because of the portal. I don't think you'll see many teams with two legit underclassmen centers for more than a single year - there's a demand for them because of the scarcity, and they easily can find a landing spot where they don't have to split time. Williams/Edey was a unicorn, but it also probably worked because one was an upperclassmen and would be giving way eventually - not the case with Payne/Evans (or Garcia, who's listed as a soph).)

Also, it's hard for me to imagine the two on the floor at the same time with Payne's current skill set. His effectiveness is entirely as a post player, and it's really hard to see him playing away from the basket - maybe, but it'd be a big departure. And in today's game, I don't see many teams posting two players - it's just too clogged in the lane. It also causes one of them to guard a 4 on defense.
 

Those are decent points, I didn't suggest they would be playing together a great deal, only that there may be times against certain lineups where it would be possible. There would have to be some development from Payne for that to happen at all, and while it would cause one of them to guard a 4, it may also create a matchup problem for the other team as well. Payne does a pretty good job of passing from a high post position.

In terms of the different era and guys looking for a landing spot somewhere else-it's possible one of them may want to leave. But it's also possible that they stay because of other reasons-they like the team, the school, the coach, their girlfriend, who knows. Maybe that's idealistic, but some of that relates to who you recruit. I see Evans, from reading about him, as unlike your "typical" recruit. Payne is local and seems to like it here. Maybe it works?
 

Payne and Evans playing at the same time would require both of them to be effective in the 10-15 foot range.

This isn’t out of the question but it requires establishment of the proper offense which prevents these guys from receiving the ball where they aren’t a threat.

I haven’t seen an offense like that at the U since Tubby left.
 

Otis said:
Payne and Evans playing at the same time would require both of them to be effective in the 10-15 foot range.

This isn’t out of the question but it requires establishment of the proper offense which prevents these guys from receiving the ball where they aren’t a threat.

I haven’t seen an offense like that at the U since Tubby left.
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Roster and portal considerations aside, I do remember James and Thomas both starting on a Final Four team, and Courtney was not reliable outside 5 feet.
 


Bad Gopher said:
Roster and portal considerations aside, I do remember James and Thomas both starting on a Final Four team, and Courtney was not reliable outside 5 feet.
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Clem knew how to coach that offense and had some pretty damn effective wings to keep teams from packing in the lane.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Roster and portal considerations aside, I do remember James and Thomas both starting on a Final Four team, and Courtney was not reliable outside 5 feet.
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That was a different time. Two only post players in 2023 is not a thing. I've said it before, even a top tier coach like Painter couldn't make Edey and Williams work. That's a far far superior coach and players. CBJ has done nothing to prove to me he could make that work.
 

Formerswish said:
Those are decent points, I didn't suggest they would be playing together a great deal, only that there may be times against certain lineups where it would be possible. There would have to be some development from Payne for that to happen at all, and while it would cause one of them to guard a 4, it may also create a matchup problem for the other team as well. Payne does a pretty good job of passing from a high post position.

In terms of the different era and guys looking for a landing spot somewhere else-it's possible one of them may want to leave. But it's also possible that they stay because of other reasons-they like the team, the school, the coach, their girlfriend, who knows. Maybe that's idealistic, but some of that relates to who you recruit. I see Evans, from reading about him, as unlike your "typical" recruit. Payne is local and seems to like it here. Maybe it works?
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Not trying to argue against your post at all as what you wrote is very logical, especially the 2nd paragraph. But what passes have you seen from Payne in the high post? Doesn't he only do those handoffs when the guards come over the top? For the season he has a .6 Ast/Tov ratio and in the last 5 games its worse (slightly @ .56). These numbers would indicate that he is not a good passer.

One additional stat I will add (from CBBanalytics.com) is Turnover Pct. Payne has a 27% turnover Pct...that is horrific (that ranks in the 7th percentile in all of college basketball players).
 

Bad Gopher said:
Roster and portal considerations aside, I do remember James and Thomas both starting on a Final Four team, and Courtney was not reliable outside 5 feet.
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That is the old world game of basketball. The game has changed drastically. Teams have moved to smaller guys who can mostly shoot and space the floor. The Gophers would be trading 2 points for 3 points. (granted we still shoot treys and can't make them...so what's the worst that can happen)
 



Well, we've turned this into a "There's no way Evans and Payne could play together" theme now. I had suggested before that if Payne (or Evans) could develop the ability to score from the elbow area that there may be situations in which they could play together. It was not suggested that this would be frequent- that will not happen.

And the suggestion that this high-low post set up with two bigs on occasion couldn't be accomplished without a "proper offense"? Wow, these coaches must be idiots. I'm sorry to have wasted everyone's time with my original post.
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
That is the old world game of basketball. The game has changed drastically. Teams have moved to smaller guys who can mostly shoot and space the floor. The Gophers would be trading 2 points for 3 points. (granted we still shoot treys and can't make them...so what's the worst that can happen)
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The Gophers are currently 327 out of 352 teams nationally, and dead last in the B1G in 3PT% at 30%. If they play Payne/Evans at the same time and shoot less 3's, I don't think that's a bad thing.

Edit: They are also 346/352 in fast break points (again, dead last in the B1G, less than even Wisky), so playing fast and waiting for the bigs to get down the court isn't an issue either.

Once you start digging, it is absolutely astounding how many team statistics this squad is ranked at 300 or worse in the country. This team truly does almost nothing well.
 
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forever a gopher said:
The Gophers are currently 327 out of 352 teams nationally, and dead last in the B1G in 3PT% at 30%. If they play Payne/Evans at the same time and shoot less 3's, I don't think that's a bad thing.

Edit: They are also 346/352 in fast break points (again, dead last in the B1G, less than even Wisky), so playing fast and waiting for the bigs to get down the court isn't an issue either.

Once you start digging, it is absolutely astounding how many team statistics this squad is ranked at 300 or worse in the country. This team truly does almost nothing well.
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Why did this staff select bad players?
 

forever a gopher said:
The Gophers are currently 327 out of 352 teams nationally, and dead last in the B1G in 3PT% at 30%. If they play Payne/Evans at the same time and shoot less 3's, I don't think that's a bad thing.

Edit: They are also 346/352 in fast break points (again, dead last in the B1G, less than even Wisky), so playing fast and waiting for the bigs to get down the court isn't an issue either.

Once you start digging, it is absolutely astounding how many team statistics this squad is ranked at 300 or worse in the country. This team truly does almost nothing well.
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This is the thing that worries me most with CBJ. We aren't say Iowa who scores but can't stop anyone, or Rutgers who can't score but is amazing at defending or MSU who has holes but is generally a top 5 rebounding team. I don't care if it's SR or FR or whatever stupid year 0 we are on, have a damn identity. That's the difference between being a good ast coach (what CBJ is) and a good head coach (what CBJ isn't). Knowing what direction your team takes to win.
 



leib0039 said:
This is the thing that worries me most with CBJ. We aren't say Iowa who scores but can't stop anyone, or Rutgers who can't score but is amazing at defending or MSU who has holes but is generally a top 5 rebounding team. I don't care if it's SR or FR or whatever stupid year 0 we are on, have a damn identity. That's the difference between being a good ast coach (what CBJ is) and a good head coach (what CBJ isn't). Knowing what direction your team takes to win.
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also @forever a gopher - it's crazy...they are bad at everything. They play slow...but the only teams who play slow (Wisconsin, Virginia - come to mind) are historically efficient on offense and have good defenses....compared to what we do...have no offense which relies on 3 points (some guy posted in the startribune, which was then posted on GopherHole about a week ago) that through 22 games, the gophers shot ~ 123 shots in the paint (5.6 per game) - what the hell even is that?

If you're going to play slow, please have an offense that doesn't suck, and for god's sake, value the ball...and while you're at it, play defense... we are so far behind the rest of the B10 in defensive (not named Iowa but their game is to outscore people) efficiency it's not even funny.
 

leib0039 said:
This is the thing that worries me most with CBJ. We aren't say Iowa who scores but can't stop anyone, or Rutgers who can't score but is amazing at defending or MSU who has holes but is generally a top 5 rebounding team. I don't care if it's SR or FR or whatever stupid year 0 we are on, have a damn identity. That's the difference between being a good ast coach (what CBJ is) and a good head coach (what CBJ isn't). Knowing what direction your team takes to win.
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He said we were going to play ferocious defense. Sounds like a good idea. Maybe they'll suddenly start doing that after the Holidays?
 

Otis said:
Payne and Evans playing at the same time would require both of them to be effective in the 10-15 foot range.

This isn’t out of the question but it requires establishment of the proper offense which prevents these guys from receiving the ball where they aren’t a threat.

I haven’t seen an offense like that at the U since Tubby left.
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Pitino ran good high low stuff with Murphy and Lynch and Oturo.
 


Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
also @forever a gopher - it's crazy...they are bad at everything. They play slow...but the only teams who play slow (Wisconsin, Virginia - come to mind) are historically efficient on offense and have good defenses....compared to what we do...have no offense which relies on 3 points (some guy posted in the startribune, which was then posted on GopherHole about a week ago) that through 22 games, the gophers shot ~ 123 shots in the paint (5.6 per game) - what the hell even is that?

If you're going to play slow, please have an offense that doesn't suck, and for god's sake, value the ball...and while you're at it, play defense... we are so far behind the rest of the B10 in defensive (not named Iowa but their game is to outscore people) efficiency it's not even funny.
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Virginia and Wisconsin are not even close to being historically efficient offensively. They play extremely good pack line defenses and make teams use the shot clock while also controlling the pace offensively. They do not score at an incredibly higher rate per possession than other top teams. They just don’t turn the ball over.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
Virginia and Wisconsin are not even close to being historically efficient offensively. They play extremely good pack line defenses and make teams use the shot clock while also controlling the pace offensively. They do not score at an incredibly higher rate per possession than other top teams. They just don’t turn the ball over.
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KenPom disagrees with you. Wisconsin is not efficient on offense this season, but both have been pretty efficient under Bennett and Ryan/Gard overall.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
KenPom disagrees with you. Wisconsin is not efficient on offense this season, but both have been pretty efficient under Bennett and Ryan/Gard overall.
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Pretty efficient (totally agree they are) is quite a bit different than historical. WBG was claiming they were carried by their offenses when both programs hang their hats on D and KenPom would back that too.
Watched Gard run a practice before. He’s really good.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
Pretty efficient (totally agree they are) is quite a bit different than historical. WBG was claiming they were carried by their offenses when both programs hang their hats on D and KenPom would back that too.
Watched Gard run a practice before. He’s really good.
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Have you watched a Ben practice?
 



Gopherfan84 said:
Pretty efficient (totally agree they are) is quite a bit different than historical. WBG was claiming they were carried by their offenses when both programs hang their hats on D and KenPom would back that too.
Watched Gard run a practice before. He’s really good.
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Not this year, which is why they are terrible, but historically they do
 

Gopherfan84 said:
Pretty efficient (totally agree they are) is quite a bit different than historical. WBG was claiming they were carried by their offenses when both programs hang their hats on D and KenPom would back that too.
Watched Gard run a practice before. He’s really good.
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I was not claiming they were carried by their offenses. If it came across that way, it was a taken out of context. Clearly everyone knows Virginia is a defensive basketball school, same as Wisconsin, but they also have better than average offense. I said historically in the sense that known to just effective enough on offense (efficient enough), not that they have historic offenses.

According to KenPom, here is some stats on Virginia and Wisconsin's O & D adjusted efficiency since 2010: (average)
  • Virginia has an O adjusted rating of 68.71 since 2010 and a 22.28 D adjusted rating
  • Wisconsin has an O adjusted rating of 48.28 since 2010 and a 23.92 D adjusted rating
    • when they went their deepest in the tourney 2013-14 and 2014-15 *their offense carried them as they were rated 4th in 2013/14 and 1st in 2014/15 *so in some way you could almost argue that when at their most successful, they were carried by their offense
 
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Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
And we ran him out of town
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Defense wins game in our conference. NW is winning because they defend. Nebraska has seen improvement because they defend. Very rare you win on offense alone (Iowa is the best example of winning on that side of the floor). Pitino was awful defensively.
Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
Not this year, which is why they are terrible, but historically they do
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I’m talking about past years too. Those teams KenPom ratings share my opinion on their defense being elite while being solid offensively. The stuff they run is actually pretty vanilla, but they run it for a long time and use the shot clock. They run offense that allows them to be set for their D. I read your comment like their offense is why they win, but it’s their program focus is defense first
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
I was not claiming they were carried by their offenses. If it came across that way, it was a taken out of context. Clearly everyone knows Virginia is a defensive basketball school, same as Wisconsin, but they also have better than average offense. I said historically in the sense that known to just effective enough on offense (efficient enough), not that they have historic offenses.

But I bet if you look at Wisconsin's NCAA runner up team from 7 or 8 years ago, they would be up there (in 2014-15 according to KenPom they had the best Adjusted Offensive rating *virginia was #21)
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Fair enough on the context.
 


Spaulding!No! said:
Doll just slam dunked on MNJay in the Asuma thread. Really not much more to be said about Ben.
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Since GopherHole said there were going to delete the post since it was in the Asuma thread, I'll put it here:

EasyThere Pilgrim said:
The same guys saying Ben can't coach would be saying Clem couldn't coach. Guaranteed. I've been on these message boards for 20 years...and some things never change.
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Since this nonsense keeps springing its ugly head from time-to-time, let me address your faulty logic and hopefully put this to bed once and for all (though I'm sure you'll be back spouting it again in no time).

1. The two coaches were coming in with vastly different resumes and profiles. Haskins was an outstanding college player and the #3 overall draft pick when he came into the NBA, drafted ahead of guys like Clyde Frazier, Pat Riley, and Phil Jackson. He also had 6 years of division I head coaching experience and had led two teams to the NCAA Tournament, including the year he was hired to come to Minnesota. I wasn't a Gophers fan at the time as I was living in South Dakota and in the first grade, but I have to imagine the Haskins hire was pretty well-received and his resume to that point fits the profile of a first-time high major head coach. On the other hand, Johnson was a mediocre college player, didn't sniff the NBA or any professional league, had zero head coaching experience at any level, and had an assistant tenure filled with mediocre-to-bad teams, including somehow getting a head coach fired at Xavier where almost every head coach goes on to a blue blood job. From literally the announcement of the hire, the almost-universal response was "WTF?!?!?" (see this board for proof) because everyone on Earth except the University of Minnesota administration knew that Johnson wasn't qualified for this job and didn't deserve it.

2. The 1987-88 Gophers team, Haskins' second, featured six future NBA players (Burton, Newbern, Coffey, Lynch, Bond and Maxey). SIX! Again, I wasn't watching as I was 8 years old and in South Dakota, but I have to imagine that the potential was self-evident, as all six were sophomores and freshman, and yet Burton and Newbern were both double-digit scorers, with Coffey averaging close to a double-double. The current Gophers roster is untalented and imbalanced, and if any of them ever play a second in a real, competitive, meaningful NBA game, I will be absolutely floored. You think ANY current Gophers are playing in the NBA someday, let alone six of them?

3. The 1987-88 Gophers team was 4-14, and while they did suffer a few blowouts, were generally competitive in most games and usually stayed within a single-digit margin. Meanwhile, the current Gophers squad looks completely lost on both ends of the floor, are getting absolutely destroyed in every game, and only have the one win they do have because Ohio St. is far worse than expected and didn't look like they even wanted to be there the night we played them. We will probably end the conference season 1-19, maybe steal a second win somewhere if we cross our fingers really hard and run into another disinterested opponent.

The TL; DR version:
1. Haskins had playing and head coaching experience and credibility, Johnson has neither.
2. The 1987-88 roster was young and very talented, the 2022-23 roster is not as young as people like to pretend and untalented.
3. We are getting blown off the floor in every game and haven't been in a competitive game in weeks.

Hopefully you'll stop it now, but my guess is we'll be going round and round.

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This was as good as it gets
 


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