Ben Johnson is a Disaster

[stocker08]

I think the person that was hired caused the mass exodus. I have a hard time believing if a coach with a more proven track record was hired then we would have seen the same mass exodus. How many times has that even happened to that degree? But I can't prove that.

I'm not one of the posters calling for this head right now. He will likely get four years minimum. But I do believe this April will be very telling. If he wants us as fans to believe in the progress he is seeing from some of his players and his vision coming to fruition then his players must feel the same. Another large roster turnover from some of the key pieces on this team doesn't support a blueprint based on patience. 5500 fans showing up on a Saturday night suggests the public hasn't bought in, but have the players?

We've gone over this ad nauseum. Carr was gone. Mashburn was going with Pitino regardless. Robbins very likely going with his uncle. Gabe may have been convinced to stay. But that's three of the four best pieces on Pitino's final team that went 6-14 in BT play gone. Ben Johnson hanging onto some of the role players remaining on the roster wouldn't have changed much.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Is the B1G not worse this year? Is Payne and JOJ playing better than their ranking? Those parts are true and it wasn’t unreasonable to think we could take a jump. Not everyone was Nostradamus like you and knew Carrington would be hurt and not able to contribute and Cooper wouldn’t be a good solution at PG.

The B1G is pretty similar to last year, with Purdue being better than any B1G last team year. That's with 2 freshman starting.

JOJ has been better than I thought, but is he a starting caliber player on a good B1G team? I have my doubts, plus he's also a tweener and doesn't play D. Payne has been disappointing to me. Some were comparing him to Oturu, but he's not even close. Neither can score outside of 3 ft. Carrington has been mostly terrible even when he was healthy. Henley has always been a long term project.

They were a bottom of the B1G class and now you can see why. But people have been trying to sell this as a great class since they signed last year. Pitino brought in 7-8 freshman who were better in their first year than any of these players.

Cooper wasn't anything special at Morehead St, I'm not sure why so many were expecting him to be some great PG. And that was the best Ben could do.

 

[stocker08]

You think programs like Rutgers and MD arent going to get players in the portal? Rutgers lost Harper and Baker and are better than they were last year. They have a class coming in similar to ours. MD has a top 15 class, PLUS have proven Head Coaches. Sure NW, will likely take a dip, so I guess we'll be fighting with them for last place. Counting on teams to be worse in the portal era is disingenuous. Rutgers is gonna be good again next year, Pikiell has a track record of them being tournament caliber going on 4 years now.

So they are losing a number of upperclassmen....but THEY will be fine because they are bringing in a class similar to the Gophers. Real interesting take.

 

[bga1]

The B1G is pretty similar to last year, with Purdue being better than any B1G last team year. That's with 2 freshman starting.

JOJ has been better than I thought, but is he a starting caliber player on a good B1G team? I have my doubts, plus he's also a tweener and doesn't play D. Payne has been disappointing to me. Some were comparing him to Oturu, but he's not even close. Neither can score outside of 3 ft. Carrington has been mostly terrible even when he was healthy. Henley has always been a long term project.

They were a bottom of the B1G class and now you can see why. But people have been trying to sell this as a great class since they signed last year. Pitino brought in 7-8 freshman who were better in their first year than any of these players.

Cooper wasn't anything special at Morehead St, I'm not sure why so many were expecting him to be some great PG. And that was the best Ben could do.

Payne would be an instant take by any Big Ten coach. He has a ways to go but most frosh bigs do.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

For the Johnson apologetics out there, i.e. Bfan, Mennosota, etc, interested in your thoughts.

Next year Johnson has a nice class coming in, 2 four* and a five*. If at this time next year you are staring at the same thing, which is a team that is completely uncompetitive and out-coached, do you give Johnson his pink slip/walking papers?

Yes. I like Johnson. by all accounts he is a decent person. but the program is bigger than any coach. If the powers-that-be decide that, for the good of the program, a change has to be made, then they should make it.

having said that, I don't think Coyle has the balls to make that move on his own. Someone higher-up would have to put his balls in a vice and order him to make the move.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Payne would be an instant take by any Big Ten coach. He has a ways to go but most frosh bigs do.

I agree, and I'm not arguing that. But he's likely the only freshman that would be an instant take for the rest of the league.

He's still a project like all of our freshman this year, and like Evans and Christie will be next year. You can't win recruiting all projects. You have to have some come in and be good, B1G caliber players from day 1.

 

[leib0039]

I think what's frustrating for us fans is that last year was painful AND pointless. The timing of the Johnson hire and the new era transfer portal forced the staff to string together a piecemeal roster of upperclassmen transfers that added nothing to the program's long-term stability (Yes, I know some of his "comps" have faired much better).

I've been a pretty adamant Johnson sympathizer. I still believe he deserves more time, but it is unreasonable to ignore some of his glaring mistakes thus far (roster construction and portal decisions loom large).

While this year is a colossal failure, It could be used as a building block. I think five glaring questions must be addressed.

#1. Are Payne, JOJ, Henley, and Carrington bought into the vision?

These guys got thrown into the fire, and this year will be for nothing if they take their experience, transfer, and apply it elsewhere. If I'm coach, I'm playing all these guys 20+ minutes, even with a healthy Garcia, and reminding them daily that they are the nucleus.

I'm assuming Garcia and Betts are bought in. The plan was always to redshirt Betts, and Garcia is home after multiple transfers. Betts has more upside than Henley/Carrington only because we haven't seen him play (sans exhibition), and he has a year to prepare his body and learn the system (unlike the other two freshmen guards).

Panic Time: Payne or JOJ transfers or both Carrington and Henley transfer.

#2. Can we find a true PG in the portal with two years to play?

We need a veteran, sure-handed PG that can defend. No more explanation is needed.

Panic Time: Roll with Cooper in 2023/2024 as the 40 mpg PG.

#3. Will there be an honest assessment of Ihnen and Fox?

Johnson needs to be realistic about what these guys can bring. They've been incredibly unlucky and have done nothing but support the team. I know it's cutthroat and bad optics potentially moving on from them, but I'd venture a bet that there's a portal player that hasn't had two ACLs tears that is a proven shooting guard.

I would love a story of redemption and seeing both of these guys contribute meaningfully. They deserve it. Only our staff knows what they are capable of.

Panic Time: They take up two scholarships and aren't contributors.

#4. Will there be an honest assessment of Cooper and Battle?

I'd guess one of these guys will not be back next year (likely Cooper). When committing, it was reported he wouldn't use his Covid year. I would welcome a redo at a portal PG. Cooper could be much more effective off the ball, but he'd need to buy into that.

Battle's regression isn't all that surprising. Payton Willis was a huge asset for Battle. We need more dynamic guards to take the pressure off him.

Battle isn't the future. He is potentially a nice bridge piece that makes the rebuilding transition smoother. I would love to have him back next year with a different roster makeup, but I won't be upset if he decides to play elsewhere. He could carve out a solid role on a competitive team as the 3rd scoring option.

Panic Time: Cooper/Battle in the same role next year.

#5. Can Johnson make difficult, unpopular decisions?

Johnson will have some difficult conversations and ultimately make tough decisions this offseason with certain players. Does he have it in him to move in a different direction and ruffle some feathers?

Panic Time: Johnson tries to keep everyone happy.

There are brighter days ahead, Gopher fans. I would love to have everyone healthy in Chicago for the Big Ten tourney and make some noise!

Overall very good post! I think as far as 5, the answer is no. Word was after Cooper he was afraid to add anyone else for fear of upsetting the apple cart. Thus we ended up with Samuels and Ramburg, guys who should be on UMDs roster.

That said, I don't think he'll have to make the tough call with someone because I'd guess multiple guys leave.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

quick thought - a lot of people are down on Carrington.

my question is when was he injured and how long did he try to play through it?

if you're having a problem with your legs, that will impact every aspect of your game - especially shooting and lateral movement on defense.

so I'm willing to cut Carrington some slack so that we can see what he can do when 100% healthy.
the guy won Mr. Basketball in MN. and the people behind that award are not bozos - so I have to think there is more there than we have seen to date.

 

[Gophers7633]

So they are losing a number of upperclassmen....but THEY will be fine because they are bringing in a class similar to the Gophers. Real interesting take.

Did you happen to miss what else I wrote, or just want to fail to acknowledge it because it hurts your argument? MD and Rutgers' head coaches have a track record of being able to land guys in the portal. Rutgers lost Harper and Baker from last year, and are better this year! Spencer has been a huge get for them. Also, the only player that wont have eligibility for next year is McConnell, so they could be in a position to return their entire team minus him. Do you honestly think we'll be in the same league as Rutgers next season?

As for MD, they also only have one significant contributor who will have exhausted his eligibility after this season. They bring in a top 15 class. Willard has proven to land much better players in the portal than Johnson.

It's dumb to bank on future success because of attrition at other schools. Especially when those schools are better in the portal.

 

[Gopherfan84]

quick thought - a lot of people are down on Carrington.

my question is when was he injured and how long did he try to play through it?

if you're having a problem with your legs, that will impact every aspect of your game - especially shooting and lateral movement on defense.

so I'm willing to cut Carrington some slack so that we can see what he can do when 100% healthy.
the guy won Mr. Basketball in MN. and the people behind that award are not bozos - so I have to think there is more there than we have seen to date.

He hasn’t been healthy all year. It is what it is with some folks. They won’t trust it until it shows and that’s fair too.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

quick thought - a lot of people are down on Carrington.

my question is when was he injured and how long did he try to play through it?

if you're having a problem with your legs, that will impact every aspect of your game - especially shooting and lateral movement on defense.

so I'm willing to cut Carrington some slack so that we can see what he can do when 100% healthy.
the guy won Mr. Basketball in MN. and the people behind that award are not bozos - so I have to think there is more there than we have seen to date.

This is a good point but I also think putting way too much on his plate way too early has been part of it as well. There are a lot of recruits who grow into larger roles but that just wasn't possible here.

It'd have been really nice if Carrington could have eased into minutes playing off the ball, taking open shots and working on defense. We don't get great shots for our players because we don't have a roster that puts our guys in positions to succeed. It's kind of like how Blake forgot how to shoot when we moved him to PG.

I think Carrington could be a decent rotational wing but we need to start building our team with some purpose.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

Overall very good post! I think as far as 5, the answer is no. Word was after Cooper he was afraid to add anyone else for fear of upsetting the apple cart. Thus we ended up with Samuels and Ramburg, guys who should be on UMDs roster.

That said, I don't think he'll have to make the tough call with someone because I'd guess multiple guys leave.

Diffident!

 

[stocker08]

Did you happen to miss what else I wrote, or just want to fail to acknowledge it because it hurts your argument? MD and Rutgers' head coaches have a track record of being able to land guys in the portal. Rutgers lost Harper and Baker from last year, and are better this year! Spencer has been a huge get for them. Also, the only player that wont have eligibility for next year is McConnell, so they could be in a position to return their entire team minus him. Do you honestly think we'll be in the same league as Rutgers next season?

As for MD, they also only have one significant contributor who will have exhausted his eligibility after this season. They bring in a top 15 class. Willard has proven to land much better players in the portal than Johnson.

It's dumb to bank on future success because of attrition at other schools. Especially when those schools are better in the portal.

So you are basing it off of players that they don't yet have? Love all of the double edged arguments made by the chicken littles. Especially when pimping a guy who also placed last in the Big Ten his first two years at a school.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

quick thought - a lot of people are down on Carrington.

my question is when was he injured and how long did he try to play through it?

if you're having a problem with your legs, that will impact every aspect of your game - especially shooting and lateral movement on defense.

so I'm willing to cut Carrington some slack so that we can see what he can do when 100% healthy.
the guy won Mr. Basketball in MN. and the people behind that award are not bozos - so I have to think there is more there than we have seen to date.

I think Carrington could eventually be a good player, but not every MN Mr Basketball turns out to be a great college player. I've never liked that he scored what, 5 pts in his HS championship game last year? It doesn't really matter if he had good talent around him, star players should put up better numbers than that in a championship game.

I have similar concerns about Evans who doesn't exactly dominate at the HS level for someone with his size and ranking, and is playing for a team that's now 15-13.

 

[Gophers7633]

So you are basing it off of players that they don't yet have? Love all of the double edged arguments made by the chicken littles. Especially when pimping a guy who also placed last in the Big Ten his first two years at a school.

When those coaches have a proven track record of landing good/great portal guys to fill out their roster, yes I am. Especially when ours hasn't. Also, Rutgers was better in year two than year one under him, and they were significantly better in year one than the year before he was hired. He also got them to the B1G tournament QF's in his second season. He also had a decade of sustained success at the low major level on his resume. Not three years of being an assistant at an underperforming school, and being turned away from fucking MAC HC jobs.

 

[goldenboy]

I have been a diehard Gopher hoops fan for 50 years. College hoops is my favorite sport (been known to tune in to middle of the pack, small conference games—just to enjoy watching hoops), and the Gophers are my favorite team. I have attended as many games as I can afford (and had countless magical experiences at Williams Arena), watched every televised game I couldn’t attend, and listened on the radio when games aren’t televised (or on %#*@ BTN+).
I’ve been through the highs and lows of Musselman, Dutcher, Clem, Monson, Tubby and Pitino. Each new coach gave me hope that the failure or scandal or malaise of the last staff would be left behind and better days were ahead. Until now.
Last night I didn’t remember the Gophers had a game. I didn’t realize I had missed it until today when I saw the score and was thankful I hadn’t watched. It has taken a lot (and I NEVER thought there would come a day), but I no longer care.

 

[stocker08]

When those coaches have a proven track record of landing good/great portal guys to fill out their roster, yes I am. Especially when ours hasn't. Also, Rutgers was better in year two than year one under him, and they were significantly better in year one than the year before he was hired. He also got them to the B1G tournament QF's in his second season. He also had a decade of sustained success at the low major level on his resume. Not three years of being an assistant at an underperforming school, and being turned away from fucking MAC HC jobs.

You have zero idea if they'll be able to bring in impact transfers....but you're just making the assumption.

As for the funny defense of Pikiell....lol. Trying to jump through hoops explaining how his last place finishes at Rutgers would have been seen as any different than the pessimists see for Johnson. None of you would be pointing to his Stony Brook results as proof that he needs more time. None. The only thing his tenure at Rutgers proves is that drawing conclusions after two years is a fools game.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

When those coaches have a proven track record of landing good/great portal guys to fill out their roster, yes I am. Especially when ours hasn't. Also, Rutgers was better in year two than year one under him, and they were significantly better in year one than the year before he was hired. He also got them to the B1G tournament QF's in his second season. He also had a decade of sustained success at the low major level on his resume. Not three years of being an assistant at an underperforming school, and being turned away from fucking MAC HC jobs.

Blew Coyle away.

 

[kg21]

You have zero idea if they'll be able to bring in impact transfers....but you're just making the assumption.

As for the funny defense of Pikiell....lol. Trying to jump through hoops explaining how his last place finishes at Rutgers would have been seen as any different than the pessimists see for Johnson. None of you would be pointing to his Stony Brook results as proof that he needs more time. None. The only thing his tenure at Rutgers proves is that drawing conclusions after two years is a fools game.

And you have zero idea if these freshman will be impact players.

It's a fun game we all play.

 

[kg21]

I have been a diehard Gopher hoops fan for 50 years. College hoops is my favorite sport (been known to tune in to middle of the pack, small conference games—just to enjoy watching hoops), and the Gophers are my favorite team. I have attended as many games as I can afford (and had countless magical experiences at Williams Arena), watched every televised game I couldn’t attend, and listened on the radio when games aren’t televised (or on %#*@ BTN+).
I’ve been through the highs and lows of Musselman, Dutcher, Clem, Monson, Tubby and Pitino. Each new coach gave me hope that the failure or scandal or malaise of the last staff would be left behind and better days were ahead. Until now.
Last night I didn’t remember the Gophers had a game. I didn’t realize I had missed it until today when I saw the score and was thankful I hadn’t watched. It has taken a lot (and I NEVER thought there would come a day, but I no longer care.

I did the same thing. Last night I checked what time they play. I was thinking it was today. I always click on Minnesota Rivals where they have the games on a calendar. I see game, in progress..........something like 35-13. I'm like f-me! So I turn on BTN thinking the game must be in Maryland. Unflipping believable.

So I watch a little and Minnesota goes on an 8-0 run or something. then at halftime, they say Payne has 12 points. I'm pumped just about that, as I thought maybe he was putting on some moves or hitting a few shots that weren't dunks. Then they do the hi-lites of him at halftime, and all they are showing is wide open dunks.

I watched about 4 minutes of the second half and cashed it in. I've never cared less.

 

[Gophers7633]

You have zero idea if they'll be able to bring in impact transfers....but you're just making the assumption.

As for the funny defense of Pikiell....lol. Trying to jump through hoops explaining how his last place finishes at Rutgers would have been seen as any different than the pessimists see for Johnson. None of you would be pointing to his Stony Brook results as proof that he needs more time. None. The only thing his tenure at Rutgers proves is that drawing conclusions after two years is a fools game.

They certainly have a better track record of bringing in better transfers than Johnson. Maybe Johnson will surprise me and not bring in a guy from Dartmouth that avg 9 ppg to be a starter on a B1G team.

As for Rutgers, do you know what a trend is. Rutgers was trending up. Won 15 games his second season, got to the QF's of the B1G tournament and that team is about 100 spots higher in KenPom than this Gophers team. The year before he got there Rutgers was 279 in KenPom. This might be the worst team in Gophers history. That's a little different than Pikiell's second season.

 

[stocker08]

They certainly have a better track record of bringing in better transfers than Johnson. Maybe Johnson will surprise me and not bring in a guy from Dartmouth that avg 9 ppg to be a starter on a B1G team.

As for Rutgers, do you know what a trend is. Rutgers was trending up. Won 15 games his second season, got to the QF's of the B1G tournament and that team is about 100 spots higher in KenPom than this Gophers team. The year before he got there Rutgers was 279 in KenPom. This might be the worst team in Gophers history. That's a little different than Pikiell's second season.

Gophers team that has been undermanned basically all year. Skews the numbers a bit.

Yeah....I know what a trend is. Using two years to determine a trend is silly. Gophers are still going to finish last in the Big Ten. Just like Rutgers under Pikiell his first two years. Bad teams.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

They certainly have a better track record of bringing in better transfers than Johnson. Maybe Johnson will surprise me and not bring in a guy from Dartmouth that avg 9 ppg to be a starter on a B1G team.

As for Rutgers, do you know what a trend is. Rutgers was trending up. Won 15 games his second season, got to the QF's of the B1G tournament and that team is about 100 spots higher in KenPom than this Gophers team. The year before he got there Rutgers was 279 in KenPom. This might be the worst team in Gophers history. That's a little different than Pikiell's second season.

They have a legit shot at being the worst Big 10 team since KenPom created. The worst ranked team in the Kenpom era is the Rutgers team Pikiell inherited in 2016 (273). The worst prior to that was a team at like 218 (we're currently at 222).

If we don't win another game and we have a couple more thrashings, we could get closer to that Rutgers number.

 

[gopheraddict]

I have been a diehard Gopher hoops fan for 50 years. College hoops is my favorite sport (been known to tune in to middle of the pack, small conference games—just to enjoy watching hoops), and the Gophers are my favorite team. I have attended as many games as I can afford (and had countless magical experiences at Williams Arena), watched every televised game I couldn’t attend, and listened on the radio when games aren’t televised (or on %#*@ BTN+).
I’ve been through the highs and lows of Musselman, Dutcher, Clem, Monson, Tubby and Pitino. Each new coach gave me hope that the failure or scandal or malaise of the last staff would be left behind and better days were ahead. Until now.
Last night I didn’t remember the Gophers had a game. I didn’t realize I had missed it until today when I saw the score and was thankful I hadn’t watched. It has taken a lot (and I NEVER thought there would come a day, but I no longer care.

I can relate in many respects. I was at the game Saturday night and, near the end of the game, some of the few remaining fans around us had resorted to joking and laughing about the comedy unfolding on the floor. We knew it was going to be a bad night when the shot clock expired on the Gophers first possession of the game! One fan suggested that the halftime scrimmage by a grade school team was the highlight of the night. At the end of the game, one fan asked how many more home games do we have to suffer through.

 

[Gophers7633]

Gophers team that has been undermanned basically all year. Skews the numbers a bit.

Yeah....I know what a trend is. Using two years to determine a trend is silly. Gophers are still going to finish last in the Big Ten. Just like Rutgers under Pikiell his first two years. Bad teams.

We were bad with Garcia and Carrington. Using their injuries as an excuse is just that.

While finishing last is the same, Pikiell didn't guide Rutgers to their worst season in history, and they were slightly better than his first team was. There are bad teams, and then there is this Gophers team.

 

[Gophers7633]

They have a legit shot at being the worst Big 10 team since KenPom created. The worst ranked team in the Kenpom era is the Rutgers team Pikiell inherited in 2016 (273). The worst prior to that was a team at like 218 (we're currently at 222).

If we don't win another game and we have a couple more thrashings, we could get closer to that Rutgers number.

I wouldn't put anything past this Gophers team from a historically bad perspective.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

Recent results aside there is a chance the gophers can catch Ohio St for 13th. But they are 3+ games back of everyone else as Nebraska finishes off the Nittany Lions.

 

[stocker08]

We were bad with Garcia and Carrington. Using their injuries as an excuse is just that.

While finishing last is the same, Pikiell didn't guide Rutgers to their worst season in history, and they were slightly better than his first team was. There are bad teams, and then there is this Gophers team.

Think most posters agree that the team was trending in the right direction before the injuries....and has been significantly worse with the paper thin roster that we now have.

Pikiell's second team was better than Johnson's second team. Ok. Both were bad and finished last in the Big Ten. I'm just glad that knee jerk reaction fans don't make the decisions. I'm sure Rutgers had a lot of fans like you who wanted to pull the plug after the first year too.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

Think most posters agree that the team was trending in the right direction before the injuries....and has been significantly worse with the paper thin roster that we now have.

Pikiell's second team was better than Johnson's second team. Ok. Both were bad and finished last in the Big Ten. I'm just glad that knee jerk reaction fans don't make the decisions. I'm sure Rutgers had a lot of fans like you who wanted to pull the plug after the first year too.

Trending in the right direction is a tough argument as the teams you’re saying this about (Wisconsin, Nebraska, Ohio State) are bottom feeders.

So even if we played better, we still lost at home to a bottom of the league Nebraska, lost to a bottom of the league Wisconsin (who had their star player get hit with 13 min remaining in the first half) and barely won against Ohio State (2-9 since Jan 2023). You could throw in Michigan as not being that great, and we still lost (and one of their best players got hurt).

I don’t think you can say either way if they were improving or not as they were playing bottom feeders and still losing…if that’s improving, we need more of a mutation to compete. I feel it fair judge the teams improvement against the B10s top teams, not the bottom feeders.

 

[leib0039]

Think most posters agree that the team was trending in the right direction before the injuries....and has been significantly worse with the paper thin roster that we now have.

Pikiell's second team was better than Johnson's second team. Ok. Both were bad and finished last in the Big Ten. I'm just glad that knee jerk reaction fans don't make the decisions. I'm sure Rutgers had a lot of fans like you who wanted to pull the plug after the first year too.

So if Pikiell should be the standard for patience on your end why can't us on the other side use Iowa St as the reason we should be a top 15 team already? Feels like a double standard on your end