Ben Johnson is a Disaster

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GopherWeatherGuy said:
Whalen was 37-26 overall and 14-22 in the B1G her first 2 seasons. Those numbers are a dream compared to Ben's so far. Definitely not historically bad. It's not heading in the right direction now though. But unlike men's basketball, women's basketball is not a revenue generating sport.
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Whalen inherited a strong program and proceeded to ruin it. By what benchmark is it moving in the right direction? Recruiting? LOL.
 

Block M said:
Wow; what a track record. Never mind all the players who've transferred out of the program; the failure to sniff .500 conference record after five years; and the obvious on-the-court hallmarks of a terribly coached team. Sure she will be extended though.
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I wasn't defending her, I was pointing out just how bad the men's situation is. They both need to go.
 


Bad Gopher said:
Of course the situation is different. Because of Pikiell's track record as a head coach, there was rational reason for hope and confidence in him.
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I think having hope and confidence in a coach because he's had a track record is great, but I think having a good product on the floor will determine in the end whether this will work with Johnson. It certainly hasn't happened yet, but shouldn't that determine it?
 



howeda7 said:
I wasn't defending her, I was pointing out just how bad the men's situation is. They both need to go.
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Whalen, yes; CBJ, No. When you sign a new coach you need to show full commitment to his/her program less than four years (unless there are code of conduct violations or things of that nature). If, after four years, there is no clear trajectory, its reasonable to move on. A program that has been in the wilderness for 30 years can afford to give a high risk-high reward coach the time that everyone knew would be needed to establish a roster and culture from the ground up.
 

Block M said:
Whalen, yes; CBJ, No. When you sign a new coach you need to show full commitment to his/her program less than four years (unless there are code of conduct violations or things of that nature). If, after four years, there is no clear trajectory, its reasonable to move on. A program that has been in the wilderness for 30 years can afford to give a high risk-high reward coach the time that everyone knew would be needed to establish a roster and culture from the ground up.
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The trajectory is clear enough for me.
 

bga1 said:
They are going to keep him at least 2 more years - no doubt about it. In fact, I hope to never go through this again with an up and comer coach. If they can't hire a homerun- stick with Ben. This is a brutal job and getting worse. I sure hope he can get this done.
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I tend to think a minimum of four but I also think three is possible if next year is similar to either of the first two.
 

Allow me to be clear: I hope I'm dead wrong about all this. I'll gladly eat my hat with fava beans and a nice chianti.
 



Block M said:
Whalen, yes; CBJ, No. When you sign a new coach you need to show full commitment to his/her program less than four years (unless there are code of conduct violations or things of that nature). If, after four years, there is no clear trajectory, its reasonable to move on. A program that has been in the wilderness for 30 years can afford to give a high risk-high reward coach the time that everyone knew would be needed to establish a roster and culture from the ground up.
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You mean high risk, high risk.
 

howeda7 said:
$1.95 million is nothing. Drawing 9,000/game with a new coach next year vs 2,000 with Ben would make that up quick.
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Dirt cheap these days at this level but look at how Coyle finessed (or weaseled if you prefer) the Pitino departure just to save a buyout of $1.75 million. All it cost the U was about a hundred grand in incentive payments (supposedly for academic progress).
 

cjbfbp said:
Dirt cheap these days at this level but look at how Coyle finessed (or weaseled if you prefer) the Pitino departure just to save a buyout of $1.75 million. All it cost the U was about a hundred grand in incentive payments (supposedly for academic progress).
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I give him some props on Pitino's buyout. Whatever/whenever it happens with Ben, his buyout should be zero factor.
 

Indiana was a well-coached game.

Did you all enjoy the Ohio State game?

Michigan?

The team is half-baked. It's like a car engine not assembled.

We really don't know.

Once it's assembled, if the engine is smoking and sputtering, then we know. It may roar. We don't know.

1675389488070.png
 



Formerswish said:
I'm not writing this to suggest that it's a certainty that Ben Johnson will turn this program around, or that this season has been "part of the plan" that he has. It's been pretty awful. And no matter what, this will get ripped by a lot of you because you can't help yourselves. But I think it's worth noting what Steve Pikiell has done at Rutgers in the Big Ten:

2016-2017: 3-15
2017-2018: 3-15
2018-2019: 7-13
2019-2020: 11-9
2020-2021: 10-10
2021-2022: 12-8
2022-2023: 7-4, 2nd place in the Big Ten

I believe there were a lot of people calling for Pikiell's head during the first couple of seasons. He slowly built something, and they have a very good program right now. This is possible here, no matter how many people say Johnson has "destroyed" Minnesota basketball. Let's see where he's at after next season's finished before going ballistic.

There will be incoming missiles arguing that this situation is different for a multitude of reasons, but it's still possible, and it may help your blood pressure to see it as a possibility too.
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You aren't accurate with RU's fanbase attitude. Prior to Pikiell's arrival, Rutgers wasn't anywhere near Minnesota level success, by which I mean going to the tournament at least once or twice every few years. They won 3 games in the previous two years prior to Pikiell. And, in the first year Pikiell arrived, they improved defensively from #228 to #75, then #22 in his second year despite all the losing. Johnson has nothing like that to point to.
 

Bfan said:
Indiana was a well-coached game.

Did you all enjoy the Ohio State game?

Michigan?

The team is half-baked. It's like a car engine not assembled.

We really don't know.

Once it's assembled, if the engine is smoking and sputtering, then we know. It may roar. We don't know.

View attachment 23624
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It's true that this team has rebounded from thrashings before to have, well, more respectable defeats and it's certainly possible this team could win a game or two before the season is over but two consecutive record breaking losses for the season have understandably left a bad taste around here.
 


To try and make a pun.

Rebuilding isn't everything, it's the only thing.

There really isn't anything else.

Maybe Johnson isn't the best mechanic but we all should hope he is a good engineer because whatever he creates we all have to live with.
 

Didn’t it take Nate Oats all of 2 years to rebuild the Alabama basketball program? Wait, he had previous head coaching experience. My bad.

Nobody wants to say it but this hire was made at a very politically sensitive time in our nations recent history, with no other minority coaches to my recollection at the U. I believe the administration felt this was the right move at the time and they wanted to be at the forefront of change. Unfortunately it has backfired. That’s just my opinion, I could be wrong, as my wife often points out.

But this program has fallen to a point where I struggle to even watch them anymore. I flew out to see them play in San Juan Capistrano during the preseason and their performance was embarrassing.

If he cannot turn it around next year the program needs to move on. There’s just too much up and coming talent that I believe would be better for the U.
 

Blitzkrieg said:
Didn’t it take Nate Oats all of 2 years to rebuild the Alabama basketball program? Wait, he had previous head coaching experience. My bad.
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Two completely different scenarios. Could’ve maybe had Oats a couple years earlier though. He’s a good coach.
Blitzkrieg said:
Nobody wants to say it but this hire was made at a very politically sensitive time in our nations recent history, with no other minority coaches to my recollection at the U. I believe the administration felt this was the right move at the time and they wanted to be at the forefront of change. Unfortunately it has backfired. That’s just my opinion, I could be wrong, as my wife often points out.
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Literally everyone points out why the hire was made at least weekly. You’re not alone in your feelings.
Blitzkrieg said:
But this program has fallen to a point where I struggle to even watch them anymore. I flew out to see them play in San Juan Capistrano during the preseason and their performance was embarrassing.
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Not unreasonable as they’ve been bad.
Blitzkrieg said:
If he cannot turn it around next year the program needs to move on. There’s just too much up and coming talent that I believe would be better for the U.
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What is the up and coming talent? I’d be interested to hear. In state talent is going to be less deep for a least a couple years still.
If you’re talking coaches, yeah there will always be newer upcoming ones. Don’t know who we could get though.
 

I think GopherHole is one source of sentiment, and the sentiment is historic disapproval. Obviously, the program has hit a low.

So then administration can fix this hitting bottom.

Thank Johnson for the fine pieces he put together, we have some nice young players, and then at a lot of money paying two coaches, the second coach more than the program can afford? That stings.

Maybe that.

Let him have his four years to see what it looks like.

And maybe it will not be good.

Everyone can decide for his or her self if Johnson is ruining his prospects.

To me it's hard to know. I'm no basketball mind. I just look for the most obvious and see a young team with more prospects coming. Easy explanation to me right there.

Awhile back my goal was to destabilize the dialogue that was fixated on "Johnson is a disaster" to look at it differently.

If the concensus gravitates to "Johnson has to go" opinion, then so be it. I'm done being optimistic about Christie and Evans and maybe Carrington and Henley righting a lopsided, young and inexperienced team assembled well by a coach maybe over his head for Big Ten Basketball.
 


formerlybis said:
You aren't accurate with RU's fanbase attitude. Prior to Pikiell's arrival, Rutgers wasn't anywhere near Minnesota level success, by which I mean going to the tournament at least once or twice every few years. They won 3 games in the previous two years prior to Pikiell. And, in the first year Pikiell arrived, they improved defensively from #228 to #75, then #22 in his second year despite all the losing. Johnson has nothing like that to point to.
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I'm not aware I said anything about "RU's fanbase attitude", and I'm not sure that has to do with anything I said. Also, was Minnesota's success level going to the tournament "once or twice every few years?" I don't think it was quite that successful. Perhaps your memory is different than mine.
 

Formerswish said:
I'm not aware I said anything about "RU's fanbase attitude", and I'm not sure that has to do with anything I said. Also, was Minnesota's success level going to the tournament "once or twice every few years?" I don't think it was quite that successful. Perhaps your memory is different than mine.
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You said people were calling for Pikiell's head after his first two years - not accurate.

Minnesota has been to the tournament 5 times since 2009, and twice during Pitino's regime. Before Pikiell brought RU to the tourney in 2021, it had been since 1991 since they made the tournament - 30 years. They hadn't even been to a NIT since 2006.
 


Gopherfan84 said:
Two completely different scenarios. Could’ve maybe had Oats a couple years earlier though. He’s a good coach.

Literally everyone points out why the hire was made at least weekly. You’re not alone in your feelings.

Not unreasonable as they’ve been bad.

What is the up and coming talent? I’d be interested to hear. In state talent is going to be less deep for a least a couple years still.
If you’re talking coaches, yeah there will always be newer upcoming ones. Don’t know who we could get though.
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You point this out at least weekly. Most of them are "gets" for the right price, if the U Admin would let it happen.
 

BarnBurner said:
You point this out at least weekly. Most of them are "gets" for the right price, if the U Admin would let it happen.
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We both know that ain’t happening so I focus on what’s realistic since I have no true influence.
 

Bfan said:
I think GopherHole is one source of sentiment, and the sentiment is historic disapproval. Obviously, the program has hit a low.

So then administration can fix this hitting bottom.

Thank Johnson for the fine pieces he put together, we have some nice young players, and then at a lot of money paying two coaches, the second coach more than the program can afford? That stings.

Maybe that.

Let him have his four years to see what it looks like.

And maybe it will not be good.

Everyone can decide for his or her self if Johnson is ruining his prospects.

To me it's hard to know. I'm no basketball mind. I just look for the most obvious and see a young team with more prospects coming. Easy explanation to me right there.

Awhile back my goal was to destabilize the dialogue that was fixated on "Johnson is a disaster" to look at it differently.

If the concensus gravitates to "Johnson has to go" opinion, then so be it. I'm done being optimistic about Christie and Evans and maybe Carrington and Henley righting a lopsided, young and inexperienced team assembled well by a coach maybe over his head for Big Ten Basketball.
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For as down as Gopherhole is on the Johnson hire, the general public is even less interested in the Gopher program under Johnson.
 

Blitzkrieg said:
Didn’t it take Nate Oats all of 2 years to rebuild the Alabama basketball program? Wait, he had previous head coaching experience. My bad.

Nobody wants to say it but this hire was made at a very politically sensitive time in our nations recent history, with no other minority coaches to my recollection at the U. I believe the administration felt this was the right move at the time and they wanted to be at the forefront of change. Unfortunately it has backfired. That’s just my opinion, I could be wrong, as my wife often points out.

But this program has fallen to a point where I struggle to even watch them anymore. I flew out to see them play in San Juan Capistrano during the preseason and their performance was embarrassing.

If he cannot turn it around next year the program needs to move on. There’s just too much up and coming talent that I believe would be better for the U.
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Very well said, pretty much nailed it on all counts.

The key is the apathy with the fan base. Nobody gives a shit anymore. People aren't even mad about losing and losing in typically embarrassing fashion. That is not good
 

forever a gopher said:
I know this would never happen, but there should be some language in the contract that if you fail to win less than 20% of your conference games, you forfeit your buyout due to being terrible at your job. I wish I found a job where I would be paid millions to leave due to incompetence.
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Find a senior leadership role (like VP or higher) in any large corporation. Most get payouts when they do dumb shit and are asked to leave, assuming they aren't scuttled to some other part of the business on a redemption tour first. I've seen both, depending on their connections.
 

Gopher Teeth said:
Jobs did say that, but he didn't practice it. He was major douche, and fired people for doing just that.
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Yeah, I was about to comment on the same thing. The guy was a grade A azzhole until he got cancer and then seemingly had an epiphany (funny how that works when faced with your own mortality).

We have this tendency to equate business success with being a great person. He absolutely gets props for being a technical visionary. As a human being, mostly an egotistical POS many of us would have gladly kicked the crap out of if given the chance.
 

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