Ben Johnson is a Disaster

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formerlybis said:
You said people were calling for Pikiell's head after his first two years - not accurate.

Minnesota has been to the tournament 5 times since 2009, and twice during Pitino's regime. Before Pikiell brought RU to the tourney in 2021, it had been since 1991 since they made the tournament - 30 years. They hadn't even been to a NIT since 2006.
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Well, it's certainly reasonable to suggest people weren't calling for his head. But after two 3-15 seasons in the Big Ten, nobody was calling for his head? I don't know if you were at Rutgers during those years and were aware of that, but if you were, you know more than I about it. And "once or twice every few years" to the tournament sound like more than 5 times in 13 years, but that can be debated.
This wasn't meant to be an argument about whether Rutgers basketball fans were unhappy during that time, or how many times the teams have gone to the tournament: It's about whether it's possible that something similar to the process that happened at Rutgers with Pikiell might have a chance of happening here. I think it's possible, other don't. If Johnson can recruit good players, I believe it can happen. And it needs to happen, or he'll be gone.
 


Formerswish said:
Well, it's certainly reasonable to suggest people weren't calling for his head. But after two 3-15 seasons in the Big Ten, nobody was calling for his head? I don't know if you were at Rutgers during those years and were aware of that, but if you were, you know more than I about it. And "once or twice every few years" to the tournament sound like more than 5 times in 13 years, but that can be debated.
This wasn't meant to be an argument about whether Rutgers basketball fans were unhappy during that time, or how many times the teams have gone to the tournament: It's about whether it's possible that something similar to the process that happened at Rutgers with Pikiell might have a chance of happening here. I think it's possible, other don't. If Johnson can recruit good players, I believe it can happen. And it needs to happen, or he'll be gone.
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This has been discussed repeatedly, and even though the B1G record was the same under Pikiell for year's 1 and 2, they showed improvement in other areas, especially on defense.

Rankings via Ken Pom:
Year prior to Pikiell's hiring:
Overall: 279
Offense: 303
Defense: 236

Year 1
Overall: 135
Offense: 231
Defense: 70

Year 2
Overall: 130
Offense: 270
Defense: 28

Compared to Minnesota
Last year of Pitino:
Overall: 62
Offense: 76
Defense: 56

Year 1 of Ben
Overall: 109
Offense: 93
Defense: 153

Year 2 so far
Overall: 200
Offense: 264
Defense: 132

Pikiell's improvement was significant in the first two years, especially on defense. Ben has taken a bad program from Pitino and made it significantly worse in just 2 years. Defense has improved slightly this year, but it's still at the bottom conference with Iowa. Fortunately Iowa has the offense to make up for it.
 

Formerswish said:
Well, it's certainly reasonable to suggest people weren't calling for his head. But after two 3-15 seasons in the Big Ten, nobody was calling for his head? I don't know if you were at Rutgers during those years and were aware of that, but if you were, you know more than I about it. And "once or twice every few years" to the tournament sound like more than 5 times in 13 years, but that can be debated.
This wasn't meant to be an argument about whether Rutgers basketball fans were unhappy during that time, or how many times the teams have gone to the tournament: It's about whether it's possible that something similar to the process that happened at Rutgers with Pikiell might have a chance of happening here. I think it's possible, other don't. If Johnson can recruit good players, I believe it can happen. And it needs to happen, or he'll be gone.
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Its a completely different landscape now though. So past examples dont work as well.

With the portal now you never know what a roster is going to look like year to year and coaches also have opportunities and thus lack of excuses to not fill their rosters as well.

Rutgers at that time had to truly build from the bottom. Now days coaches can take 2-22 teams and get them to the tournament the next year.
 

Ogee Ogilthorpe said:
Very well said, pretty much nailed it on all counts.

The key is the apathy with the fan base. Nobody gives a shit anymore. People aren't even mad about losing and losing in typically embarrassing fashion. That is not good
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I’m still visiting the board, but I couldn’t even tell you who the next opponent is and when the game is. I’m here for the train wreck I suppose.
 


Spaulding!No! said:
Fewer and fewer CBJ rage posts are appearing on the GH. This could be good or this could be bad.
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Apathy mainly. Have seen enough of this team to know that there really hasn't been a ton of steady improvement. If Ben is to be the guy, I want the team to head up from here and finish strong, looking like a team that is a tough out.

Currently, when they play any team in the Big Ten that is better than the bottom 4 or so, they get taken to the woodshed in most aspects of the game. The fire wasn't there the last couple games, even though it was the few prior. This can't happen. That part of their play(effort, smarts) needs to stay at a high level or improve throughout the season.
 

bga1 said:
Anyone that holds to the premise that this job hire was overseen by Gabel (as I do) needs to also realize the firing would also be under her "guidance". He's here for a while and I want him to succeed.
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Agreed. I'm actually fine with giving him 4 years. I like the recruits next year and if he can keep the core here and add 1-2 impact guys in the transfer portal, we'll get better. I think he's capable of doing this.

If we're Weakling Wednesday in year 4, likely the end.
 

skiumah1 said:
Agreed. I'm actually fine with giving him 4 years. I like the recruits next year and if he can keep the core here and add 1-2 impact guys in the transfer portal, we'll get better. I think he's capable of doing this.

If we're Weakling Wednesday in year 4, likely the end.
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What are some firm goals for next year? Next year cannot be a free pass and 100% security regardless of performance...
 




He has done well with prep recruiting, but he still needs to follow up on his 2023 class strongly. If Evans and Christie are the top of the mountain, we may be done for.
 

goldengophers said:
What are some firm goals for next year? Next year cannot be a free pass and 100% security regardless of performance...
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He has 4 year security barring a scandal. If he doesn't get 7 or more wins AND midway through the Big Ten season has us thinking there is a chance at an NCAA berth- I don't think he is savable. But the administration will give him year 4 regardless.

Early in the year we had some folks here saying that the last 5 games of this year would show something good. Those are coming up in a few weeks. I hope we see the promise.
 

Formerswish said:
Well, it's certainly reasonable to suggest people weren't calling for his head. But after two 3-15 seasons in the Big Ten, nobody was calling for his head? I don't know if you were at Rutgers during those years and were aware of that, but if you were, you know more than I about it. And "once or twice every few years" to the tournament sound like more than 5 times in 13 years, but that can be debated.
This wasn't meant to be an argument about whether Rutgers basketball fans were unhappy during that time, or how many times the teams have gone to the tournament: It's about whether it's possible that something similar to the process that happened at Rutgers with Pikiell might have a chance of happening here. I think it's possible, other don't. If Johnson can recruit good players, I believe it can happen. And it needs to happen, or he'll be gone.
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First off, thanks for accepting what I wrote about RU - 5/13 years > 0/30 years, and thus the fanbase expectations are naturally set at different levels.

I'm going to focus on the bolded. What I and many people are trying to say is that coaching acumen is more important than personnel - especially at a school that will rarely, if ever, be able to out-talent its league brethren. Pikiell doesn't have better talent than the league - he knows how to coach, though, and the numbers backed that up from the time he got there. There are no such numbers for Johnson.
 

bga1 said:
He has 4 year security barring a scandal. If he doesn't get 7 or more wins AND midway through the Big Ten season has us thinking there is a chance at an NCAA berth- I don't think he is savable. But the administration will give him year 4 regardless.

Early in the year we had some folks here saying that the last 5 games of this year would show something good. Those are coming up in a few weeks. I hope we see the promise.
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7 year security regardless of BT finishes.
 



on the hiring: I thought at the time it couldn't be any worse than Pitino. Johnson had ties to MN and he just seemed like a decent guy.

and I will say that Johnson has had to deal with some different situations - a mass exodus of players and a lot of injury issues. (yes - some of the exodus could be on him for not retaining them)

but this year has been very disappointing.

I'm willing to give Johnson one more year to show what he could do with a healthy roster (assuming everyone stays healthy and most players return) plus the incoming recruits.

But if next year is not significantly better, then I honestly think the U has to consider pulling the plug - assuming the missing persons unit can find the AD.

to be blunt - I think Coyle is a bigger problem than Johnson or Whalen. but that's a topic for another day.
 

bga1 said:
He has 4 year security barring a scandal. If he doesn't get 7 or more wins AND midway through the Big Ten season has us thinking there is a chance at an NCAA berth- I don't think he is savable. But the administration will give him year 4 regardless.

Early in the year we had some folks here saying that the last 5 games of this year would show something good. Those are coming up in a few weeks. I hope we see the promise.
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And I haven't seen those folks around here lately. If you're strong on a position, don't hide.
 

formerlybis said:
First off, thanks for accepting what I wrote about RU - 5/13 years > 0/30 years, and thus the fanbase expectations are naturally set at different levels.

I'm going to focus on the bolded. What I and many people are trying to say is that coaching acumen is more important than personnel - especially at a school that will rarely, if ever, be able to out-talent its league brethren. Pikiell doesn't have better talent than the league - he knows how to coach, though, and the numbers backed that up from the time he got there. There are no such numbers for Johnson.
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I thought about this when watching the game on Wednesday. When the Gophers went to the zone in the first half, it took about two or three empty possessions for Rutgers to figure out how to attack it. After a couple minutes, it was a parade of open shots from the elbow, baseline, and around the three point line. Ball movement. Wide open shots. Speaking of talent -- they lost their two best players from last year's team (Baker and Harper) and are about to go to their 4th consecutive NCAA tournament. That's what good coaching looks like. Rutgers is lucky to have him.
 

skiumah1 said:
Agreed. I'm actually fine with giving him 4 years. I like the recruits next year and if he can keep the core here and add 1-2 impact guys in the transfer portal, we'll get better. I think he's capable of doing this.

If we're Weakling Wednesday in year 4, likely the end.
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I'm afraid that, if we're still playing on Wednesday in year 4, it'll be like Riley turning off the engines in "The Naked Time." The program would be as cold and dead as a dead body. Instead of calling ourselves the new Northwestern, future hapless teams would be calling themselves the new Minnesota.
 

Beyond the on-court results, the biggest red flag is the lack of coherent roster construction, which suggests he doesn’t have a plan (also supported by the on-court results). The state of our PG and SG positions, which really haven’t been hit by injury, is astounding.
 

SPEGOPHER said:
Beyond the on-court results, the biggest red flag is the lack of coherent roster construction, which suggests he doesn’t have a plan (also supported by the on-court results). The state of our PG and SG positions, which really haven’t been hit by injury, is astounding.
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He was pretty excited about Cooper. I am surprised they thought his lack of speed would translate here in the Big Ten- with this offensive style and a man to man defense. I think he got lured in by Payton Willis who is a little quicker than Cooper but not a speedy guard- because Willis had such a nice year last year.
 

goldengophers said:
What are some firm goals for next year? Next year cannot be a free pass and 100% security regardless of performance...
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I'd say 500 in the Big Ten should be the goal and at least be in the bubble conversation. More realistic may be 6+ Big Ten wins.

If we get a competent or better PG for next year (and possibly another Guard), and all others come back (Mainly Battle, Garcia, Payne, JOJ, Cooper), I'd think a decent coach should be competitive with that roster.

Evans and Christie should both be Day 1 players that contribute as well. Wouldn't be surprised, and actually would hope, that Christie players over Carrington and Henley right away.
 
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No reason this team isn’t competing for the lead in the BT. Talent is there. Coaching is there.
 

formerlybis said:
First off, thanks for accepting what I wrote about RU - 5/13 years > 0/30 years, and thus the fanbase expectations are naturally set at different levels.

I'm going to focus on the bolded. What I and many people are trying to say is that coaching acumen is more important than personnel - especially at a school that will rarely, if ever, be able to out-talent its league brethren. Pikiell doesn't have better talent than the league - he knows how to coach, though, and the numbers backed that up from the time he got there. There are no such numbers for Johnson.
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I hear what you're saying, and I'm way outnumbered here by people who don't think Johnson can coach worth a damn. I've played and coached for many years, which doesn't make me an expert, but my experience is that better players make coaches a hell of a lot better. Coaching acumen is incredibly important, and so are talented players. I don't think Johnson is John Wooden, but I think he's better than the buffoon people on this board make him out to be.
Right now Pikiell has players that play great defense and shoot the ball a whole lot better than the Gophers, who don't have a lot of talent overall. I'm anxious to see some significant improvement through next year. Most of you don't think it's coming. Let's talk at the end of next year and see.
 

Formerswish said:
I hear what you're saying, and I'm way outnumbered here by people who don't think Johnson can coach worth a damn. I've played and coached for many years, which doesn't make me an expert, but my experience is that better players make coaches a hell of a lot better. Coaching acumen is incredibly important, and so are talented players. I don't think Johnson is John Wooden, but I think he's better than the buffoon people on this board make him out to be.
Right now Pikiell has players that play great defense and shoot the ball a whole lot better than the Gophers, who don't have a lot of talent overall. I'm anxious to see some significant improvement through next year. Most of you don't think it's coming. Let's talk at the end of next year and see.
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Yep 100%. He's significantly better than Lil' Ricky, although it has not translated to wins to date.
Recruiting and roster mgmt. will decide BJ's fate here
 

Formerswish said:
I hear what you're saying, and I'm way outnumbered here by people who don't think Johnson can coach worth a damn. I've played and coached for many years, which doesn't make me an expert, but my experience is that better players make coaches a hell of a lot better. Coaching acumen is incredibly important, and so are talented players. I don't think Johnson is John Wooden, but I think he's better than the buffoon people on this board make him out to be.
Right now Pikiell has players that play great defense and shoot the ball a whole lot better than the Gophers, who don't have a lot of talent overall. I'm anxious to see some significant improvement through next year. Most of you don't think it's coming. Let's talk at the end of next year and see.
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It would pretty difficult not to show improvement next year. Pitino won conference coach of the year in his fourth year in part because the bar had been set so low in year three.

Johnson was lauded by many for his current class of freshman and the recruits coming in next year. Do those recruits lack talent in your view? Garcia and Battle are not talented? Does the product on the floor this year lack talent or lack execution or lack coaching? Does Pikiell's team really have that much more "talent" or just execute much better on both sides of the ball? This team doesn't look like it is better than the sum of its parts to me (as another poster said). That gets back to coaching.
 

Bad Gopher said:
I'm afraid that, if we're still playing on Wednesday in year 4, it'll be like Riley turning off the engines in "The Naked Time." The program would be as cold and dead as a dead body. Instead of calling ourselves the new Northwestern, future hapless teams would be calling themselves the new Minnesota.
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Fold the program! Lol
 

golfing18now said:
It would pretty difficult not to show improvement next year. Pitino won conference coach of the year in his fourth year in part because the bar had been set so low in year three.

Johnson was lauded by many for his current class of freshman and the recruits coming in next year. Do those recruits lack talent in your view? Garcia and Battle are not talented? Does the product on the floor this year lack talent or lack execution or lack coaching? Does Pikiell's team really have that much more "talent" or just execute much better on both sides of the ball? This team doesn't look like it is better than the sum of its parts to me (as another poster said). That gets back to coaching.
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Certainly the jury is still out on the freshmen. JOJ is showing he can contribute, Payne clearly is talented enough to contribute but has been disappointing with his reluctance to shoot or drive to the hoop when he has opportunities. Henley shows promise athletically, but needs to learn play under control, and Carrington is an unknown. He can shoot it, but hasn't shown that in games yet.

They all have some talent, but there are no stars here. Garcia is an above average player in this league, and Battle has been at times and at times below average. Does Pikiell's team have more talent? Right now, yes, and they have an older and more experienced team.

In terms of coaching and coaching acumen, have you ever tried to coach players to increase their lateral foot speed on defense, or coach them to shoot better? The coaches aren't always to blame when players don't do things well. And no matter what anyone tells you, freshmen struggle much more with these 2 things than upperclassmen. The Gophers right now don't defend well and don't shoot it well. During the last 6 games, they're shooting 22.8% on 3 pointers. That's truly awful. I still believe there will be significant improvement next year, and if not, many people here may get their wish.
 

Formerswish said:
Well, it's certainly reasonable to suggest people weren't calling for his head. But after two 3-15 seasons in the Big Ten, nobody was calling for his head? I don't know if you were at Rutgers during those years and were aware of that, but if you were, you know more than I about it. And "once or twice every few years" to the tournament sound like more than 5 times in 13 years, but that can be debated.
This wasn't meant to be an argument about whether Rutgers basketball fans were unhappy during that time, or how many times the teams have gone to the tournament: It's about whether it's possible that something similar to the process that happened at Rutgers with Pikiell might have a chance of happening here. I think it's possible, other don't. If Johnson can recruit good players, I believe it can happen. And it needs to happen, or he'll be gone.
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Pikiell was a head coach for 12 years prior to Rutgers. His record at Stony brook was 192-156 (109-71), including 4 conference championships and finishing 2nd twice more. So in his 11 seasons there, he finished in the top 2 in the conference 6 times, including finishing 1 or 2 in each of his last 5 seasons there.

There was evidence that Pikiell could coach at a high level. There is no evidence to lean on to say CBJ can turn this around. It's all just a hope and a prayer. If Craig Smith, Niko, etc. were here and had a similar record, while I'd be concerned, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and wouldn't be pushing the panic button yet.
 

Formerswish said:
Certainly the jury is still out on the freshmen. JOJ is showing he can contribute, Payne clearly is talented enough to contribute but has been disappointing with his reluctance to shoot or drive to the hoop when he has opportunities. Henley shows promise athletically, but needs to learn play under control, and Carrington is an unknown. He can shoot it, but hasn't shown that in games yet.

They all have some talent, but there are no stars here. Garcia is an above average player in this league, and Battle has been at times and at times below average. Does Pikiell's team have more talent? Right now, yes, and they have an older and more experienced team.

In terms of coaching and coaching acumen, have you ever tried to coach players to increase their lateral foot speed on defense, or coach them to shoot better? The coaches aren't always to blame when players don't do things well. And no matter what anyone tells you, freshmen struggle much more with these 2 things than upperclassmen. The Gophers right now don't defend well and don't shoot it well. During the last 6 games, they're shooting 22.8% on 3 pointers. That's truly awful. I still believe there will be significant improvement next year, and if not, many people here may get their wish.
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Yes. Back when the peach basket was still a part of the game.

Most understand that playing solid D is just as much mental as physical. Sure its easier if the team has a bunch of quick twitch players. But so much of it is desire and doing the little things. Like playing to the strong hand and force the weak hand on the dribble, defending the baseline and forcing to the middle, maintaining the proper ball/man alignment, boxing out and with today's use of film study, get a firm understanding of the other guys strengths, weakness and tendencies.

Everyone likes to score. And coaches must spend the majority of practice time on teaching D fundamentals. Somehow I wish there was a stat that measured D efficiency. I was one who highly valued Gabe's effort and D savvy. I don't see that with anyone on the current roster other than Samuel's who is no Gabe.
 

Formerswish said:
Certainly the jury is still out on the freshmen. JOJ is showing he can contribute, Payne clearly is talented enough to contribute but has been disappointing with his reluctance to shoot or drive to the hoop when he has opportunities. Henley shows promise athletically, but needs to learn play under control, and Carrington is an unknown. He can shoot it, but hasn't shown that in games yet.

They all have some talent, but there are no stars here. Garcia is an above average player in this league, and Battle has been at times and at times below average. Does Pikiell's team have more talent? Right now, yes, and they have an older and more experienced team.

In terms of coaching and coaching acumen, have you ever tried to coach players to increase their lateral foot speed on defense, or coach them to shoot better? The coaches aren't always to blame when players don't do things well. And no matter what anyone tells you, freshmen struggle much more with these 2 things than upperclassmen. The Gophers right now don't defend well and don't shoot it well. During the last 6 games, they're shooting 22.8% on 3 pointers. That's truly awful. I still believe there will be significant improvement next year, and if not, many people here may get their wish.
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On offense, yeah, there's some things coaches can do with scheme to get better looks, but players do need to ultimately make shots. I'm not sold the scheme is doing much of anything to increase the quality of looks (or if there is a scheme), but I'm willing to concede that better skill helps.

On defense, though, I have less sympathy for the performance. Pikiell's first two teams at Rutgers were comparable in talent (or worse) than the first two teams that Johnson's had. But he instilled the culture and discipline and focus on that end of the court. It can be done when there's a will.
 


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