Ben Johnson and this team

[alchemy2u]

(1) Of course no one can know for 100% certainty but all of the evidence we have suggests that my suspicion is true.
(2) My suspicion, of course, is going to be speculation. That's what a suspicion is or else it would be called knowledge. That said, it is 100% based on facts. Name another person who had such light of resume that was recently hired as a HC in the Big 10. Just 1. It's a FACT that you cannot. That fact is not dispositive, but it is a fact nonetheless. So my suspicion was created by gathering the facts and then letting those facts serve as a bridge to my eventual conclusion. That's kind of how all speculation works.
(3) Yeah, Whalen was also hired for reasons outside of her resume. Thank you for proving my point. There are numerous different ways someone can be hired that isn't based on their resume (diversity, family lineage, fame, etc.). So yes, Whalen was one kind of non-merit based hiring and Ben Johnson is another. This isn't complicated. It's like Yale has students who only get in because they are legacy and students who only get in because of their ethnicity - - neither of them would have gotten if it were 100% merit based.
(4) Yeah, I understand the narrative that Coyle interviewed this guy and was wowed and offered the job. My opinion, based on common sense and the factual reality of who gets hired as a head basketball coach, is that Ben Johnson wouldn't have even been considered but for the political component. Also, you'd have no idea what someone's style of play would be by interview. I've heard plenty of people talk about spacing and ball movement who clearly are not proponents of that style of play (Pitino).

I will read your response (if you choose to write one) but I'm not going to reply in this thread. I've said it from the beginning that just because someone is hired for reasons other than merit that doesn't mean they won't succeed. I like Ben Johnson and I really like his style of play, so I'm not going to further go down this road But I will read what you write if you choose to respond and I'll give you the last word.

Good thing you are not a lawyer. Alternative facts......

 

[ecoperson]

(1) Of course no one can know for 100% certainty but all of the evidence we have suggests that my suspicion is true.
(2) My suspicion, of course, is going to be speculation. That's what a suspicion is or else it would be called knowledge. That said, it is 100% based on facts. Name another person who had such light of resume that was recently hired as a HC in the Big 10. Just 1. It's a FACT that you cannot. That fact is not dispositive, but it is a fact nonetheless. So my suspicion was created by gathering the facts and then letting those facts serve as a bridge to my eventual conclusion. That's kind of how all speculation works.
(3) Yeah, Whalen was also hired for reasons outside of her resume. Thank you for proving my point. There are numerous different ways someone can be hired that isn't based on their resume (diversity, family lineage, fame, etc.). So yes, Whalen was one kind of non-merit based hiring and Ben Johnson is another. This isn't complicated. It's like Yale has students who only get in because they are legacy and students who only get in because of their ethnicity - - neither of them would have gotten if it were 100% merit based.
(4) Yeah, I understand the narrative that Coyle interviewed this guy and was wowed and offered the job. My opinion, based on common sense and the factual reality of who gets hired as a head basketball coach, is that Ben Johnson wouldn't have even been considered but for the political component. Also, you'd have no idea what someone's style of play would be by interview. I've heard plenty of people talk about spacing and ball movement who clearly are not proponents of that style of play (Pitino).

I will read your response (if you choose to write one) but I'm not going to reply in this thread. I've said it from the beginning that just because someone is hired for reasons other than merit that doesn't mean they won't succeed. I like Ben Johnson and I really like his style of play, so I'm not going to further go down this road But I will read what you write if you choose to respond and I'll give you the last word.

You seem to be solidly in the Johnson camp now so this has nothing to do with whether you like the hire or not. I am merely responding to point out that suggesting that your assertion that Ben "wouldn't have been hired if he were white" is downright misleading and wrong.

1.) You have no evidence at all. NONE. It is all supposition and conjecture to suit your supposition.

2) What facts? Because the majority of Power 5 hires have had previous head coaching experience, they must ALL have had head coaching experience? The list is admittedly not long but there are numerous examples of coaches hired as head coaches in Power 5 conferences (or name schools) with resumes similar or worse than Ben's coaching resume. One of the most recent examples is Hubert Davis at UNC. A more local example would be Fred Hoiberg at Iowa State. Throw in the Hardaways, Ewings, Mullens of the world. Is Chris Collins at Northwestern only given a pass because he played and coached at Duke? It seems that a large number of recent Dukies (Amaker, Woj, Snyder, etc) follow that path.

I found an interesting article that analyzed hiring from a dozen different angles. I haven't had time to read it all so I have no idea if it helps or hurts my case. I am merely sharing as it might be of interest to you and others. Coaching Hire Analysis

3) Thank you for further solidifying my point. "There are numerous different ways someone can be hired that isn't based on their resume (diversity, family lineage, fame, etc.)." Listen, we all know that Ben does not have a rock star resume but his hiring could be based just as easily on ANY or MANY of the 'numerous different ways someone can be hired.'

You clearly stated that "wouldn't have been hired if he were white." Most would look to the fact that he is an alum, a former player, a former assistant coach, is from the Twin Cities, had a previous relationship with the AD, etc. These are FACTS that we ALL know and can verify without a shred of doubt. You, instead, choose to hang your hat on only one reason for his hiring- his race.

I am not here to make enemies and wage battles. We are both fans of the Gophers. Now let's go out there and give a different MSU a game on Wed. night!

 

[Angry]

Unless you hear it directly from Coyle and the administration, you can never know that Ben "wouldn't have been hired if he were white." You just can't. There is no way that you can prove that race played any factor whatsoever in this decision. Your supposition is without merit as it is unable to be supported by facts. People make decisions based on multiple factors. Coyle had a recent history of going against conventional wisdom with the Whalen hire.

You say that "no one knew his personality or vision." That is undeniably false. The most important person in the room- the person who was doing the hiring- knew. Coyle knew Ben when Ben was a player and Coyle was the associate AD. Coyle knew Ben again when he was Ben's AD before Ben left for Xavier. For all we know, Coyle had identified Ben as someone who he thought could be a success in the future and decided to take a risk and bump that timeline up a few years.

If Whalen wasn’t hired after she showed interest there would’ve been people with pitchforks in dinkytown.

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

Unless you hear it directly from Coyle and the administration, you can never know that Ben "wouldn't have been hired if he were white." You just can't. There is no way that you can prove that race played any factor whatsoever in this decision. Your supposition is without merit as it is unable to be supported by facts. People make decisions based on multiple factors. Coyle had a recent history of going against conventional wisdom with the Whalen hire.

You say that "no one knew his personality or vision." That is undeniably false. The most important person in the room- the person who was doing the hiring- knew. Coyle knew Ben when Ben was a player and Coyle was the associate AD. Coyle knew Ben again when he was Ben's AD before Ben left for Xavier. For all we know, Coyle had identified Ben as someone who he thought could be a success in the future and decided to take a risk and bump that timeline up a few years.

Great post -thanks.

Additionally any hire can and should check many boxes; it isn’t an either/or, binary choice - that’s playing checkers. Whereas In playing chess you get a young up and comer (and they can come from a traditional pipeline, Fleck or Ben to a lesser extent with the no HC in the resume or Whalen from a non-traditional source) who will have loyalty to you as u gave them their first gig or in Flecks case P5 job, while meeting your budget, satisfying the state’s provincial bent (not a bad thing, but it is “a thing”), enduring the program to the local hoops community and the bonus is he’s black as well- that’s not the specific reason he was hired, I.e. why it’s a bonus. So your hire accomplishes multiple goals/checks multiple boxes (anyone who has done any hiring knows how hard this can be to conceptualize and implement) and that is a pro in action, i.e. Mr. Coyle. Gosh darn it, maybe he knows what he’s doing and is better at his vocation than most, including me, (all of us?) are. I doubt his avocation is posting about us, , yet that’s what we do about him, a highly educated person with legit experience = an impeccable CV, who has demonstrated competency in his job (remember, no one dies there job perfectly, including us).

 

[Otis]

So much better of an X’s and O’s Coach. You can see what the offense is trying to do and as much as I liked Carr sitting up top and throwing it around (or usually just dribbling) until the clock is inside of 10 seconds and watch Carr drive is not a good offense. This team moves the ball and plays D. I was never sure of the hire because of lack of head coaching experience but clearly he has what it takes. Excited to see him run with more heralded players but this is damn fun to watch!

Funny how Carr doesn’t do that at Texas.

 

[Otis]

Why do people continue to talk about race?
Can’t you just enjoy the team our new coach has put together under HIS LEADERSHIP.
He could be green for all I care.

 

[VolitileGopher]

I was against change for the sake of change. I liked the talent on last year's roster. For years, I gave Pitino a break because he really did have a ton of injuries derail his success.

That said, I think Johnson is quickly making the case that a) he can coach, b) he can get players to buy-in to his system, and c) he can win with inferior talent. I just hope recruits can see themselves succeeding in his system. I am anxious to see if his system changes a bit with more talent. Pretty obvious to me that Johnson is forfeiting offense rebounding (15.4% puts us at 357 out of 358 teams--kenpom data) in favor of floor balance and eliminating fast breaks. Very nervous about the boards versus the Big Ten competition starting tonight with Sparty.

 

[Some guy]

I was against change for the sake of change. I liked the talent on last year's roster. For years, I gave Pitino a break because he really did have a ton of injuries derail his success.

That said, I think Johnson is quickly making the case that a) he can coach, b) he can get players to buy-in to his system, and c) he can win with inferior talent. I just hope recruits can see themselves succeeding in his system. I am anxious to see if his system changes a bit with more talent. Pretty obvious to me that Johnson is forfeiting offense rebounding (15.4% puts us at 357 out of 358 teams--kenpom data) in favor of floor balance and eliminating fast breaks. Very nervous about the boards versus the Big Ten competition starting tonight with Sparty.

Yeah. I am pleased with 7-1 and am revising my 0-2 win prediction in big ten play up to 3-5 wins.

But the team is still really bad. He can coach bad talent to play decent ball.

long term
1) how much can he upgrade talent
2) can he get talent to buy in to the same degree he is getting on-talent to buy in

 

[Mulligan]

Yeah. I am pleased with 7-1 and am revising my 0-2 win prediction in big ten play up to 3-5 wins.

But the team is still really bad. He can coach bad talent to play decent ball.

long term
1) how much can he upgrade talent
2) can he get talent to buy in to the same degree he is getting on-talent to buy in

Have no real way of telling about getting talent to buy in, but I suspect he will. He certainly seems like he has a style or system. I think going forward, Johnson is going to target his recruiting to fit that system. I think he definitely has the intelligence and discipline to identify and recruit players he knows will buy in to his style of play or else he won't really go after them. Previously, Pitino never seemed to start from that foundation. As things evolved, he went after whomever and never established an identity.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Really successful people know how to collaborate and delegate. That might be what we are seeing with Johnson and his staff.

I think you make a good point about working with older players. This is one of the calmest college teams I've ever watched. B1G road games might not be so daunting. Johnson seems really chill on the sideline and the team takes on that persona. Pitino was constantly in the refs' ears or into it to some degree (something short of berating) with his players. That might buy this team more respect from the B1G refs than a rookie coach normally gets. It's a small sample, but a calm coach and older players seems to work well.

Pitino wore his emotions on his sleeve. He had that look sometimes where you knew exactly what he was thinking and wanted to say....

Having a bunch of experienced guys is great. Has really sped up the amount of time needed to adjust to each other. Team doesn't play like a collection of guys from all over the country that were just thrown together this off-season. If you didn't know the history of the team you would think it was a group that had been playing together for years not months.

 

[MplsGopher]

First of all, my grapevine tells me that it wasn't a diversity hire; it was a budget hire.

Utah hired CS for less than we paid Ben. And he (CS) was willing and wanting to come here, and I assume could have been had for that much here.

So this bit of it, really is out the window. Sorry, but it is.


Ben had never been a head coach before, and was turned down to be a head coach at two other schools.


Coyle took a massive risk, here.


And so far ..... appears to be paying off. Thank goodness.

Who doesn't like when a gamble pays off?? Maybe it's a gamble that a school like Minnesota has to take, to try to change things in a big way. Don't know.


But I just know that all the people feeling great about themselves, deserve it. Good for them, and good for all Gopher fans.

 

[Tucker32]

Yeah. I am pleased with 7-1 and am revising my 0-2 win prediction in big ten play up to 3-5 wins.

But the team is still really bad. He can coach bad talent to play decent ball.

long term
1) how much can he upgrade talent
2) can he get talent to buy in to the same degree he is getting on-talent to buy in

The team is not really bad. They have gaps, such as in limited size, but the top six players are each very sound, disciplined players who can compete athletically in the Big Ten. Daniels is athletic enough, without a lot of skill. They are by no means bad. They may win only five games, but teams will have to beat them. MSU had to make contested shots last night in order to beat them, but there will be nights that good teams will not knock those down, and the discipline this team demonstrates on both ends of the court will lead to a win against a more talented team overall.

They are a good team, without depth and limited size. A bad team does not beat Mississippi State on the road, or a couple of the other games they have pulled out.

 

[Some guy]

The team is not really bad. They have gaps, such as in limited size, but the top six players are each very sound, disciplined players who can compete athletically in the Big Ten. Daniels is athletic enough, without a lot of skill. They are by no means bad. They may win only five games, but teams will have to beat them. MSU had to make contested shots last night in order to beat them, but there will be nights that good teams will not knock those down, and the discipline this team demonstrates on both ends of the court will lead to a win against a more talented team overall.

They are a good team, without depth and limited size. A bad team does not beat Mississippi State on the road, or a couple of the other games they have pulled out.

Okay, they’re a really bad team for a big ten team.
they are not a really bad team for a division 1 team

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Good thing you are not a lawyer. Alternative facts......

Another loser obsessed with my job.

Do you remember the beginning of the Helen Keller movie where she is walking around the dinner table like a little monster? That's you with the English language. No one expects you to be able to function at the level of a non-disabled person, but with some effort, you can come a long way.

Lets put the merits of your post aside and lets just get you to a point where you are somewhat able to convey a message.

I know, you're obsessed with job, so you NEED to shoehorn it into this discussion. It's a necessity, lets talk about how to do it. So lets start with the premise that we need to bring up my job in this discussion.

The generic rip on lawyers is that they are deceitful. I believe that was your failed attempt at that point. So, if you were going to try to make that point, this is how it would have been done.

"Good thing you are a lawyer. Alternative facts . . ."

• The idea you're trying to convey is that because I am being a typical lawyer using alternative facts.
• I'd also suggest bridging these concepts a little. Right now, you have two points you want to make but you're not smart enough to do it. You just kind of puked things (incorrectly puked them) and you expect the reader to do all the work.
• Examples:
  • "With all of those alternative facts, good thing you are a lawyer".
  • "You can tell you're a lawyer the way you keep repeating alternative facts."

If you're trying to suggest I'm not really a lawyer, you need to walk your reader into this a lot more.

"Good thing you're not a lawyer because you're not very good at persuading people with your alternative facts."

In general, it just takes a little work and even you can get there. Obsessing over another man's job also makes you look intimidated. Going to law school is really not an accomplishment (the world has way too many lawyers), so there is no need to be intimidated and bring it up out of nowhere.

 

[Tucker32]

Okay, they’re a really bad team for a big ten team.
they are not a really bad team for a division 1 team

They are not a really bad BIG ten team either. However, believe what you wish.

 

[Bad Gopher]

Utah hired CS for less than we paid Ben. And he (CS) was willing and wanting to come here, and I assume could have been had for that much here.

So this bit of it, really is out the window. Sorry, but it is.


Ben had never been a head coach before, and was turned down to be a head coach at two other schools.


Coyle took a massive risk, here.


And so far ..... appears to be paying off. Thank goodness.

Who doesn't like when a gamble pays off?? Maybe it's a gamble that a school like Minnesota has to take, to try to change things in a big way. Don't know.


But I just know that all the people feeling great about themselves, deserve it. Good for them, and good for all Gopher fans.

I'm not saying my source is good or that it makes sense. What you say is true. That's why we maybe should take Coyle at his word.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Okay, they’re a really bad team for a big ten team.
they are not a really bad team for a division 1 team

With all due respect I think it remains to be seen just how bad they are for a Big Ten team. If they stay healthy there is a solid shot this team finishes closer to the middle of the conference than the bottom. Health will be the biggest determining factor though, couple key injuries and they are toast.

 

[MplsGopher]

That's why we maybe should take Coyle at his word.

I'm not even sure what that word would officially be.

Is he on record with a statement like "The reason I hired Ben Johnson, is: X,Y, and Z". I would be surprised if he let himself be pinned down like that, on such a risky hire. But I don't recall.

 

[MplsGopher]

With all due respect I think it remains to be seen just how bad they are for a Big Ten team. If they stay healthy there is a solid shot this team finishes closer to the middle of the conference than the bottom. Health will be the biggest determining factor though, couple key injuries and they are toast.

And any particular night, how well they shoot the 3.

 

[Bad Gopher]

I'm not even sure what that word would officially be.

Is he on record with a statement like "The reason I hired Ben Johnson, is: X,Y, and X". I would be surprised if he let himself be pinned down like that, on such a risky hire. But I don't recall.

What I'm talking about is when Coyle said he was "blown away" when he visited with Ben and that he earned the job on the strength of that interview.

 

[MplsGopher]

What I'm talking about is when Coyle said he was "blown away" when he visited with Ben and that he earned the job on the strength of that interview.

Right. Nothing specific in the slightest. Hand-wavy words that he can't be pinned down on for any specific aspect.

 

[Some guy]

With all due respect I think it remains to be seen just how bad they are for a Big Ten team. If they stay healthy there is a solid shot this team finishes closer to the middle of the conference than the bottom. Health will be the biggest determining factor though, couple key injuries and they are toast.

They are toast regardless

 

[Some guy]

They are not a really bad BIG ten team either. However, believe what you wish.

We will see at the end of the season. The conference is down. So that’s why I no longer think it’ll be close to an 0fer

 

[Some guy]

The team is not really bad. They have gaps, such as in limited size, but the top six players are each very sound, disciplined players who can compete athletically in the Big Ten. Daniels is athletic enough, without a lot of skill. They are by no means bad. They may win only five games, but teams will have to beat them. MSU had to make contested shots last night in order to beat them, but there will be nights that good teams will not knock those down, and the discipline this team demonstrates on both ends of the court will lead to a win against a more talented team overall.

They are a good team, without depth and limited size. A bad team does not beat Mississippi State on the road, or a couple of the other games they have pulled out.

Ok
We will see if they finish bottom 3-4 in the league (bad) or higher (not bad)

 

[TurfGopher]

Count me in with the group of people who thought BJ was a convenient, low cost, diversity hire. If BJ can continue to get his players to hustle for the whole game, play tough defense, and eek out some wins he will have success attracting talented players to the program. Even though they were getting whooped for much of the MSU game, the gophers kept fighting. Most of our roster would be bench players at any other B1G team, if BJ can get superior talent to play like that then were in business baby!

 

[MNVCGUY]

They are toast regardless

If your expecting a contender then sure, they are toast and were so the moment that Fox and Ihnen went down if not before.

 

[mnhoopboy]

Okay, they’re a really bad team for a big ten team.
they are not a really bad team for a division 1 team

Have you not watched some of these other BT teams play in NC? I'm trying to figure out what makes you think this Gopher team is any worse than NW, PSU, Nebraska, Rutgers, etc.? Again, a really bad team does not stay within single digits of a top 20 team all while shooting terribly from the 3 point line.

 

[Some guy]

Have you not watched some of these other BT teams play in NC? I'm trying to figure out what makes you think this Gopher team is any worse than NW, PSU, Nebraska, Rutgers, etc.? Again, a really bad team does not stay within single digits of a top 20 team all while shooting terribly from the 3 point line.

A bad team beat a top 20 team last year. What place do you think they’re getting in the big 10?

I would probably say 11-12 right now.
How good do you think they are?

 

[Some guy]

If your expecting a contender then sure, they are toast and were so the moment that Fox and Ihnen went down if not before.

Yeah. Let me be clear, me saying they aren’t very good isn’t a knock on the players or the coach in terms of effort and maximization of talent…it is simply a comment on the ceiling of the roster makeup

 

[Some guy]

Count me in with the group of people who thought BJ was a convenient, low cost, diversity hire. If BJ can continue to get his players to hustle for the whole game, play tough defense, and eek out some wins he will have success attracting talented players to the program. Even though they were getting whooped for much of the MSU game, the gophers kept fighting. Most of our roster would be bench players at any other B1G team, if BJ can get superior talent to play like that then were in business baby!

He is convenient and low cost. And there is no risk apart from the next 3 years. If we have 3 bad seasons, we are in a better financial position to make a splash hire.
If we are good in 3 years, we are in great shape.

This program has been over .500 in conference like once in the last 20 years