Ben Johnson and this team

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Dave H said:
Thorson coaches the D and the D is the reason they are winning. He is isnt denigrating Johnson. He is just giving credit where it is do.

Seriously you need to take a breathe. Is it a knock on Fleck when people praise Rossi's D?
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Exactly. Monson's best team was when coach Mo came in and coached up the defense too.
 

Dave H said:
Uh...what? Are you high? You reading racism into giving the defensive coach credit for the team winning based on defense says more about you than anything.

If he gives credit to a White Player is that racism too? Does all praise need to be given out equally or is there some "This Isnt Racism" formula?

I am as bleeding heart as they come and I think this post is one of the stupidest I have ever seen. There is no microaggression, there is just someone looking for a reason to find racism where it doesn't exist. Race has literally zero to do with the comment at all but you just had to find a way to make it about that so you could get up on your high horse and prove you are better minded than everyone else. Quick note: you aren't.

Just because someone mentioned Thorson as a big reason the team is winning (you know the coach everyone wanted to come back here for years and who everyone was excited to have back because his teams play hard especially on D) isn't a knock on Ben Johnson and it certainly isn't some racist wink and nod. They aren't dog whistling or disparaging, they are giving credit where it was due...something that happens on this board all the time. The only one injecting race into it is you and again that speaks more to you.

(if your post was in jest or sarcasm than I apologize for being stupid)
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You have to take it into the context of all the criticism of the hiring of Ben Johnson. There is a lot of sensitivity brought on by all of the claims that it was only a diversity hire and that he had no business getting the job, etc... All of that blatantly ignored Ben's experience, personality and visions of how he would coach a team.

It is Ben's vision to play lock down defense, have high IQ BB payers, have players that will outwork the opponent, be good shooters, be a family, etc... We have all heard Ben talk about what he wants. Now we see a team that looks to be cast in that vision that Ben has outlined. Defense is one important part, but not by any means the only reason they have had success. Ben hired who he thought was the best defensive coach, Thorson.

Someone posts that "Thorson is a big reason why we are winning". Isn't it obvious that some may see that as taking all of the credit away from Ben. If the teams is not playing good offense, having confidence to make the shots or doing all of the little things then the defense alone would not be winning these games. Yes, Thorson is doing a very good job, but credits goes to the whole staff.
 


alchemy2u said:
You have to take it into the context of all the criticism of the hiring of Ben Johnson. There is a lot of sensitivity brought on by all of the claims that it was only a diversity hire and that he had no business getting the job, etc... All of that blatantly ignored Ben's experience, personality and visions of how he would coach a team.

It is Ben's vision to play lock down defense, have high IQ BB payers, have players that will outwork the opponent, be good shooters, be a family, etc... We have all heard Ben talk about what he wants. Now we see a team that looks to be cast in that vision that Ben has outlined. Defense is one important part, but not by any means the only reason they have had success. Ben hired who he thought was the best defensive coach, Thorson.

Someone posts that "Thorson is a big reason why we are winning". Isn't it obvious that some may see that as taking all of the credit away from Ben. If the teams is not playing good offense, having confidence to make the shots or doing all of the little things then the defense alone would not be winning these games. Yes, Thorson is doing a very good job, but credits goes to the whole staff.
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No, it is not obvious at all. Another big reason fou our success is Battle's aggressive scoring. Another Willis' guts and I've water at the end. And Curry's heart in playing as a shell of his long lost potential. And on and on. Good job, Ben. You made it all happen.
 

alchemy2u said:
You have to take it into the context of all the criticism of the hiring of Ben Johnson. There is a lot of sensitivity brought on by all of the claims that it was only a diversity hire and that he had no business getting the job, etc... All of that blatantly ignored Ben's experience, personality and visions of how he would coach a team.

It is Ben's vision to play lock down defense, have high IQ BB payers, have players that will outwork the opponent, be good shooters, be a family, etc... We have all heard Ben talk about what he wants. Now we see a team that looks to be cast in that vision that Ben has outlined. Defense is one important part, but not by any means the only reason they have had success. Ben hired who he thought was the best defensive coach, Thorson.

Someone posts that "Thorson is a big reason why we are winning". Isn't it obvious that some may see that as taking all of the credit away from Ben. If the teams is not playing good offense, having confidence to make the shots or doing all of the little things then the defense alone would not be winning these games. Yes, Thorson is doing a very good job, but credits goes to the whole staff.
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I know the context I hated all the diversity hire crap.

Assuming everyone who posts a positive about Thorson is a racist though is quite a leap. It isn't like the poster said "Ben Johnson is a mediocre coach but thankfully he has Thorson around who is making him look good!!". Then I could at least kind of see where it is coming from. (still a leap though) But just mentioning a coach on its own is not anywhere close IMHO.

Johnson is getting tons of praise and deservedly so...by many of the people who hated the hire. (I had no issue with the hire and was super excited for the future before the team started out 7-0 because I like Ben Johnson a lot) No need to mar that by starting fights that have no real basis. If CoMN thought said poster was being racist or was somehow shortchanging Ben Johnson with his post all they had to do was ask for a clarification. Jumping straight to tHaT Is dA rACiSm!1!!11 tells me they were itching to start something.
 
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Dakota2 said:
There is no greater divide between the old regime and the beginning of the Johnson era than that part of success called "playing smart".
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Exactly. Fundamentals and smart basketball were never the hallmark of Pitino's teams and they can go a long way to making a team better than the sum of its parts. When Johnson has the horses this could be an awesome team to watch!

I think the team will win over a lot of fans, as will he as he gets interviewed more and really becomes the true face of the team. He could be what Clem was...minus the cheating of course ;)
 

CoMn said:
Have you ever seen a fan of a winning team give credit to the black assistant coach over a white head coach? To give Thorson credit (who Johnson hired BTW), is so racist and offensive, I felt compelled to post my extremely sarcastic remark. I don't think the poster means to be racist, but it is so beyond his imagination to think that this winning team should be credited to Johnson. That's a micro-aggression if I've ever seen it. I have no doubt Thorson is contributing. But this is Ben Johnson's team. If it was losing would we say it's Thorson's fault??
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Oh my!

I am at a loss words !!

How dare you call me a racist!! Not even remotely the case. If anyone is it would be you. I don't fkn care what color anyone is and color of the coach never crossed my mind in that post. You sir need a clue.
 


Dave H said:
Uh...what? Are you high? You reading racism into giving the defensive coach credit for the team winning based on defense says more about you than anything.

If he gives credit to a White Player is that racism too? Does all praise need to be given out equally or is there some "This Isnt Racism" formula?

I am as bleeding heart as they come and I think this post is one of the stupidest I have ever seen. There is no microaggression, there is just someone looking for a reason to find racism where it doesn't exist. Race has literally zero to do with the comment at all but you just had to find a way to make it about that so you could get up on your high horse and prove you are better minded than everyone else. Quick note: you aren't.

Just because someone mentioned Thorson as a big reason the team is winning (you know the coach everyone wanted to come back here for years and who everyone was excited to have back because his teams play hard especially on D) isn't a knock on Ben Johnson and it certainly isn't some racist wink and nod. They aren't dog whistling or disparaging, they are giving credit where it was due...something that happens on this board all the time. The only one injecting race into it is you and again that speaks more to you.

(if your post was in jest or sarcasm than I apologize for being stupid)
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Especially since Gopherbbdude was replying to Angry who said “It was great for him to bring in Thorson the D has been outstanding”. Things get misconstrued when taken out of context.
 



lovethegophers said:
Especially since Gopherbbdude was replying to Angry who said “It was great for him to bring in Thorson the D has been outstanding”. Things get misconstrued when taken out of context.
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Maybe I’m wrong but I thought CoMN was being facetious. Anywho I like the defense whoever is responsible.
 

Spaulding!No! said:
What are u saying?
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You can respect and like both - it’s not a binary choice.

thank god Ben is secure enough in himself that he can share the coaching credit with his assistants and not care or be defensive about it. Everyone can shine
 
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Angry said:
Maybe I’m wrong but I thought CoMN was being facetious. Anywho I like the defense whoever is responsible.
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I was hoping so which is why I put the comment in at the end.
 

Dave H said:
Exactly. Fundamentals and smart basketball were never the hallmark of Pitino's teams and they can go a long way to making a team better than the sum of its parts. When Johnson has the horses this could be an awesome team to watch!

I think the team will win over a lot of fans, as will he as he gets interviewed more and really becomes the true face of the team. He could be what Clem was...minus the cheating of course ;)
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It's often the little things that scream fundamentals and bb IQ.

In the Pitt game, on Pitt's last possession with the lead, Jamarious Burton dribbled to the top of the key. Hugely, their stud center, came up the lane and looked like he was going to set a pick. But as Burron started to drive the lane, Hugley walked back down the lane.

By doing that, Hugley not only clogged the lane, he left Burton without the opportunity for a drive-and-dish and he took himself out of position to rebound Burton's errant shot--which was caused by Hugley blocking the lane.

It was only one play, but it just fundamentally poor spacing on Hugley's part, and it couldn't have come at a worse time for Pitt.
 



CoMn said:
Have you ever seen a fan of a winning team give credit to the black assistant coach over a white head coach? To give Thorson credit (who Johnson hired BTW), is so racist and offensive, I felt compelled to post my extremely sarcastic remark. I don't think the poster means to be racist, but it is so beyond his imagination to think that this winning team should be credited to Johnson. That's a micro-aggression if I've ever seen it. I have no doubt Thorson is contributing. But this is Ben Johnson's team. If it was losing would we say it's Thorson's fault??
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I don't believe that was the poster's intent. If they would have said instead, "Thorson is one of the reasons we are winning.", would that have carried the same connotation?

A great leader identifies and surrounds themselves with great people. They establish a vision. Then they empower those people, clear roadblocks and get the hell out of the way. Speaking highly of an assistant by no means diminishes the head coach. If anything it reinforces what the eye test has already revealed - the signs of a great, young head coach emerging in front of us in real time. His ability to assemble a solid coaching staff, build a team from scratch and have them ready to play fundamentally sound, inspired basketball in the span of several months speaks volumes to his potential. I am so excited for the future of Gopher basketball.

Message boards, like email, are notoriously unreliable for putting things into context. The most likely explanation is the poster was just excited with the team and loves their defensive intensity. Since most people tend to write like they talk, they just blurted it out as if they were in a live conversation. Upon hearing it, you could have asked them what they meant by that instead of jumping to conclusions. If you still feel it was somehow racially motivated and a slight at HC Johnson, then you are entitled to feel that way, but I don't believe that was the intention.
 

alchemy2u said:
You have to take it into the context of all the criticism of the hiring of Ben Johnson. There is a lot of sensitivity brought on by all of the claims that it was only a diversity hire and that he had no business getting the job, etc... All of that blatantly ignored Ben's experience, personality and visions of how he would coach a team.

It is Ben's vision to play lock down defense, have high IQ BB payers, have players that will outwork the opponent, be good shooters, be a family, etc... We have all heard Ben talk about what he wants. Now we see a team that looks to be cast in that vision that Ben has outlined. Defense is one important part, but not by any means the only reason they have had success. Ben hired who he thought was the best defensive coach, Thorson.

Someone posts that "Thorson is a big reason why we are winning". Isn't it obvious that some may see that as taking all of the credit away from Ben. If the teams is not playing good offense, having confidence to make the shots or doing all of the little things then the defense alone would not be winning these games. Yes, Thorson is doing a very good job, but credits goes to the whole staff.
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You're wrong.

People said it was a diversity hire BECAUSE of his experience. No one knew his personality or vision.

As everyone has said, it could certainly work out. I'm ecstatic it has and I like Ben. It doesn't change the fact that if he were white he wouldn't have been hired and that he doesn't have the resume of a Big 10 basketball coach.

It'd be like if Ryan Saunders had turned out to be a really good coach. That wouldn't have then changed the fact he got the job because he was the coaches son. It just turned out that he couldn't coach (same with Pitino).

As I've said all along, all of that stuff means NOTHING once we start to play. If Ben's a good coach, it will never matter how and why he was hired. So far so good.
 

I saw it more as a country club hire than a diversity hire. Let's give the job to a guy who has a history with the program and understands the basic geography of Twin Cities basketball.

It makes sense in some ways, but we've also seen how that plays out via the Twins and Timberwolves. We settle for mediocrity and don't have any high aspirations.

There are many ways to build a basketball program and what Ben sold us was recruiting the state hard. Based on next year's class, I had a hard time seeing how this approach would actually yield a roster that could compete for a Big 10 title, which seems to be the demand of this fanbase.

What I underappreciated was the fact that with the transfer rules going the way it is, Ben is going to be able to flip veteran college players in the portal every year that have some connection to Minnesota, and have that consistently supplement our true freshman classes to build a sustainable contender. We might not be able to get someone of Willis' caliber every transfer window, but we will be able to get guys like Lowe, Sutherlin, Stephens to really bolster our roster.

Ben has proven capable at piecemealing a roster together. I didn't anticipate that but I should have.
 

DarthGopher said:
I don't believe that was the poster's intent. If they would have said instead, "Thorson is one of the reasons we are winning.", would that have carried the same connotation?

A great leader identifies and surrounds themselves with great people. They establish a vision. Then they empower those people, clear roadblocks and get the hell out of the way. Speaking highly of an assistant by no means diminishes the head coach. If anything it reinforces what the eye test has already revealed - the signs of a great, young head coach emerging in front of us in real time. His ability to assemble a solid coaching staff, build a team from scratch and have them ready to play fundamentally sound, inspired basketball in the span of several months speaks volumes to his potential. I am so excited for the future of Gopher basketball.

Message boards, like email, are notoriously unreliable for putting things into context. The most likely explanation is the poster was just excited with the team and loves their defensive intensity. Since most people tend to write like they talk, they just blurted it out as if they were in a live conversation. Upon hearing it, you could have asked them what they meant by that instead of jumping to conclusions. If you still feel it was somehow racially motivated and a slight at HC Johnson, then you are entitled to feel that way, but I don't believe that was the intention.
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If he would have said Thorson is one of the reasons I would have taken no offense. I see broadcasters describe white players as smart black players as athletic and black hires as diversity hires. It's all racist. It's not the intention but the inability to see people for what they are. Look at the dudes old posts and try to find one that supports a black coach when we were in the hiring process. You'll probably find a post or two complaining about black coaches. Some people are incapable of seeing black head coaches as leaders who are effectively orchestrating the team. This team would not be 7-0 without Ben Johnson. Has anyone ever said Duke wins because of Chris Carrawell? Do we say Gonzaga is sure great cuz of Roger Powell? Nope but gosh darn when a black head coach does well....well, it's because of Thorson. I am not trying to be an a$$, I am trying to make folks aware of when they do racist stuff....
 

CoMn said:
Has anyone ever said Duke wins because of Chris Carrawell? Do we say Gonzaga is sure great cuz of Roger Powell? Nope but gosh darn when a black head coach does well....well, it's because of Thorson. I am not trying to be an a$$, I am trying to make folks aware of when they do racist stuff....
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Most non-Duke/Gonzaga fans couldn't name the assistant coaches on Duke or Gonzaga. And most casual fans have no idea who Dave Thorson is either.

But fans who follow those teams very closely might give credit to the assistants. Also comparing Ben to Coach K is a bit of a leap. I think the comparison of Thorson to Coach Mo is very applicable. Monson's best year by far was when Mo came here and changed the defense. Also Pitino's teams went downhill after McHale left. Often one of the assistants is the "defensive coordinator" and gets the credit accordingly. I don't think any of it is to take away from Ben.
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
You're wrong.

People said it was a diversity hire BECAUSE of his experience. No one knew his personality or vision.

As everyone has said, it could certainly work out. I'm ecstatic it has and I like Ben. It doesn't change the fact that if he were white he wouldn't have been hired and that he doesn't have the resume of a Big 10 basketball coach.

It'd be like if Ryan Saunders had turned out to be a really good coach. That wouldn't have then changed the fact he got the job because he was the coaches son. It just turned out that he couldn't coach (same with Pitino).

As I've said all along, all of that stuff means NOTHING once we start to play. If Ben's a good coach, it will never matter how and why he was hired. So far so good.
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Unless you hear it directly from Coyle and the administration, you can never know that Ben "wouldn't have been hired if he were white." You just can't. There is no way that you can prove that race played any factor whatsoever in this decision. Your supposition is without merit as it is unable to be supported by facts. People make decisions based on multiple factors. Coyle had a recent history of going against conventional wisdom with the Whalen hire.

You say that "no one knew his personality or vision." That is undeniably false. The most important person in the room- the person who was doing the hiring- knew. Coyle knew Ben when Ben was a player and Coyle was the associate AD. Coyle knew Ben again when he was Ben's AD before Ben left for Xavier. For all we know, Coyle had identified Ben as someone who he thought could be a success in the future and decided to take a risk and bump that timeline up a few years.
 

CoMn said:
Yeah it cant be the diversity hire. Must be the white guy
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There is whole off topic board where there is thread after thread of people calling people racist who don't agree with them. Does it have to be on here too?
 


CoMn said:
If he would have said Thorson is one of the reasons I would have taken no offense. I see broadcasters describe white players as smart black players as athletic and black hires as diversity hires. It's all racist. It's not the intention but the inability to see people for what they are. Look at the dudes old posts and try to find one that supports a black coach when we were in the hiring process. You'll probably find a post or two complaining about black coaches. Some people are incapable of seeing black head coaches as leaders who are effectively orchestrating the team. This team would not be 7-0 without Ben Johnson. Has anyone ever said Duke wins because of Chris Carrawell? Do we say Gonzaga is sure great cuz of Roger Powell? Nope but gosh darn when a black head coach does well....well, it's because of Thorson. I am not trying to be an a$$, I am trying to make folks aware of when they do racist stuff....
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You sir are an ass for calling someone you don't know racist. You have no idea who I am or who your talking to. How do you know I'm not white?

You have turned this in to a rational thing and it's not.

For the record. Ben Johnson is a great hire and he hired Thorson. Making BJ get all the credit.

Unbelievable!!!!
 

ecoperson said:
Unless you hear it directly from Coyle and the administration, you can never know that Ben "wouldn't have been hired if he were white." You just can't. There is no way that you can prove that race played any factor whatsoever in this decision. Your supposition is without merit as it is unable to be supported by facts. People make decisions based on multiple factors. Coyle had a recent history of going against conventional wisdom with the Whalen hire.

You say that "no one knew his personality or vision." That is undeniably false. The most important person in the room- the person who was doing the hiring- knew. Coyle knew Ben when Ben was a player and Coyle was the associate AD. Coyle knew Ben again when he was Ben's AD before Ben left for Xavier. For all we know, Coyle had identified Ben as someone who he thought could be a success in the future and decided to take a risk and bump that timeline up a few years.
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(1) Of course no one can know for 100% certainty but all of the evidence we have suggests that my suspicion is true.
(2) My suspicion, of course, is going to be speculation. That's what a suspicion is or else it would be called knowledge. That said, it is 100% based on facts. Name another person who had such light of resume that was recently hired as a HC in the Big 10. Just 1. It's a FACT that you cannot. That fact is not dispositive, but it is a fact nonetheless. So my suspicion was created by gathering the facts and then letting those facts serve as a bridge to my eventual conclusion. That's kind of how all speculation works.
(3) Yeah, Whalen was also hired for reasons outside of her resume. Thank you for proving my point. There are numerous different ways someone can be hired that isn't based on their resume (diversity, family lineage, fame, etc.). So yes, Whalen was one kind of non-merit based hiring and Ben Johnson is another. This isn't complicated. It's like Yale has students who only get in because they are legacy and students who only get in because of their ethnicity - - neither of them would have gotten if it were 100% merit based.
(4) Yeah, I understand the narrative that Coyle interviewed this guy and was wowed and offered the job. My opinion, based on common sense and the factual reality of who gets hired as a head basketball coach, is that Ben Johnson wouldn't have even been considered but for the political component. Also, you'd have no idea what someone's style of play would be by interview. I've heard plenty of people talk about spacing and ball movement who clearly are not proponents of that style of play (Pitino).

I will read your response (if you choose to write one) but I'm not going to reply in this thread. I've said it from the beginning that just because someone is hired for reasons other than merit that doesn't mean they won't succeed. I like Ben Johnson and I really like his style of play, so I'm not going to further go down this road But I will read what you write if you choose to respond and I'll give you the last word.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
You're wrong.

People said it was a diversity hire BECAUSE of his experience. No one knew his personality or vision.

As everyone has said, it could certainly work out. I'm ecstatic it has and I like Ben. It doesn't change the fact that if he were white he wouldn't have been hired and that he doesn't have the resume of a Big 10 basketball coach.

It'd be like if Ryan Saunders had turned out to be a really good coach. That wouldn't have then changed the fact he got the job because he was the coaches son. It just turned out that he couldn't coach (same with Pitino).

As I've said all along, all of that stuff means NOTHING once we start to play. If Ben's a good coach, it will never matter how and why he was hired. So far so good.
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No. They could have hired any number of other people of color if they wanted a diversity hire. He was clearly hired out of budget (like BadGopher said) and the hope of better local recruiting. It was a home run shot. Hopefully it works out. Refusing to see that and continuing to pound away at the diversity crap is just looking for what you want to see.
 


CoMn said:
Have you ever seen a fan of a winning team give credit to the black assistant coach over a white head coach? To give Thorson credit (who Johnson hired BTW), is so racist and offensive, I felt compelled to post my extremely sarcastic remark. I don't think the poster means to be racist, but it is so beyond his imagination to think that this winning team should be credited to Johnson. That's a micro-aggression if I've ever seen it. I have no doubt Thorson is contributing. But this is Ben Johnson's team. If it was losing would we say it's Thorson's fault??
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Holy shit dude. The survey says "Thorazine"
 

howeda7 said:
Most non-Duke/Gonzaga fans couldn't name the assistant coaches on Duke or Gonzaga. And most casual fans have no idea who Dave Thorson is either.

But fans who follow those teams very closely might give credit to the assistants. Also comparing Ben to Coach K is a bit of a leap. I think the comparison of Thorson to Coach Mo is very applicable. Monson's best year by far was when Mo came here and changed the defense. Also Pitino's teams went downhill after McHale left. Often one of the assistants is the "defensive coordinator" and gets the credit accordingly. I don't think any of it is to take away from Ben.
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You did notice this thread is "Ben Johnson and this team" so what does the guy do....praise Ben...nope...says we are winning because of Thorson.
 

I like the juxtaposition of the young black head coach, with an older white assistant. Reminds me of those Eddie Murphy buddy-cop movies he used to do in the 80s.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
You're wrong.

People said it was a diversity hire BECAUSE of his experience. No one knew his personality or vision.

As everyone has said, it could certainly work out. I'm ecstatic it has and I like Ben. It doesn't change the fact that if he were white he wouldn't have been hired and that he doesn't have the resume of a Big 10 basketball coach.

It'd be like if Ryan Saunders had turned out to be a really good coach. That wouldn't have then changed the fact he got the job because he was the coaches son. It just turned out that he couldn't coach (same with Pitino).

As I've said all along, all of that stuff means NOTHING once we start to play. If Ben's a good coach, it will never matter how and why he was hired. So far so good.
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No, we did know his vision and goals for the program, you just ignored all of his interviews and jumped to a conclusion based on his race. It really shows more about your reflexive bias than it does about the hire.

Making overly simplified conclusions is just plain lazy and are very seldom correct. Ryan was an assistant coach in the NBA for 10 seasons before he became the coach of the Timberwolves. The owner had a comfortable relationship with Ryan and decided to give him the job after a trial run during the 2019 season. Yes, Ryan got some of his assistant coaching jobs because his dad was the head coach, but that is not the primary reason that Ryan got the HC job.

Also with Richard Pitino, many assume he only got the job because of his last name. He did get his start from his dad, but he was a productive assistant coach at two very high profile college programs (serving 1 year as an associate head coach). He over achieved in his first year at FIU in the playoffs and was highly recommended by one of the hottest coaches in College Basketball (Donovan). His name may have opened some doors and helped him with recruiting, but it was not the only reason he was hired.
 

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