Before you give up on Pitino...

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mcal24

mcal24

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In their first few seasons as head coach of a major conference school.

Coach A:
1980-81: 17-13 (6-8), NIT 3rd round
1981-82: 10-17 (4-10), no tourney
1982-83: 11-17 (3-11), no tourney

Coach B:
1995-96: 16-16 (9-9), NIT 2nd round
1996-97: 17-12 (9-9), NIT 2nd round

Coach C:
1996-97: 13-17 (5-11), no tourney
1997-98: 14-15 (6-10), NIT 1st round











Coach A is Mike Krzyzewski, B is Tom Izzo, C is Billy Donovan. You don't always see the results right away, some great coaches start off slow. Not saying Pitino will be a great coach, but it's a little early to lose hope. Be patient.
 

Great post....being honest when I say that, have to state that cause so many people on this forum are sarcastic.
 

Absolutely a great point. However, this is tough to swallow given how much we returned from a fairly successful season last year.
 


nemosgold said:
What were the school records the two years prior?
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Duke:
1978-79: 22-8 (9-3), NCAA round of 32
1979-80: 24-9 (7-7), NCAA Elite Eight

Michigan State:
1993-94: 20-12 (10-8), NCAA 2nd round
1994-95: 22-6 (14-4), NCAA 1st round

Florida:
1994-95: 17-13 (8-8), NCAA 1st round
1995-96: 12-16 (6-10), no tourney
 


Jim Boeheim 26-4 22-6
Denny Crum 26-5 23-7
Mark Few 26-9 26-7
Don Haskins 18-6 19-7
Gene Keady 17-11 21-8
Ray Meyer 19-5 22-4

I understand your post, but it's ok to win too.
 

fan of Ray Williams said:
Jim Boeheim 26-4 22-6
Denny Crum 26-5 23-7
Mark Few 26-9 26-7
Don Haskins 18-6 19-7
Gene Keady 17-11 21-8
Ray Meyer 19-5 22-4

I understand your post, but it's ok to win too.
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Obviously a lot of good coaches start off good and bad coaches start off bad. I was just trying to show that it isn't always the case, and it's a little ridiculous to get mad at Pitino this early. Three of the best coaches in the game today had slow starts similar to that of Pitino.
 

fan of Ray Williams said:
Jim Boeheim 26-4 22-6
Denny Crum 26-5 23-7
Mark Few 26-9 26-7
Don Haskins 18-6 19-7
Gene Keady 17-11 21-8
Ray Meyer 19-5 22-4

I understand your post, but it's ok to win too.
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Yes, its ok, but it doesn't seem to be an option this year.
 

Great post. I'm clearly not happy with this season, but I'll give Pitino 2 more seasons before I'm giving up on him. I think he will get it done...maybe not next year, but hopefully the year after.
 



The only problem with this is that our cupboard is pretty bare after this year and I don't see any program changers coming in next year. It's a decent class, but unless we get a couple of surprises, I think next year is going to be a tough year. Everyone of those big name programs in the B1G are going to be better next year than they are this year. Michigan, MSU, Indiana, Ohio State, Illinois and Purdue will all be better next year....and when was the last time Wisconsin finished with upside of the top 4? I'm not saying Pitino is a bad coach....all I'm saying is that im not as optimistic as many others on here.
 

Obviously there are lots of different thought processes. However, when we talk about "giving up on Pitino", I don't feel like I am seeing very many if any people saying that he will never succeed and should be fired. In my opinion, it is ok to be angry with him for how poorly this season has gone. He returned a lot of talent from last year, and frankly this team has been talented enough to hold late leads in many of the games they lost. I am pretty furious with him right now.

That said, I am not so furious that I am not curious about whether he will do better when he gets some more of his guys in system. If indeed he turns into one of the three guys who were mentioned by blind resume in the original post, then I will never again say a bad word about how this season went. This better be the low point though. We don't need to be world beaters next year for me to continue to have hope and faith with Pitino, but if this garbage continues for the rest of this season and next season, that is a really tough pill to ask fans to swallow. Especially fans who have been treated to some pretty bad meltdowns over the last decade.
 


I would like to see 2007-08 and 2008-09 compared to 2013-14 and 2014-15. That's the most relevant comparison we can make. And no, I'm not pining for Tubby, just saying that the best comparison would be how coaching tenures evolved from year to year. Tubby started going the wrong way in Year 4, maybe Pitino will be just the opposite? Sure hope so.
 



SelectionSunday said:
I would like to see 2007-08 and 2008-09 compared to 2013-14 and 2014-15. That's the most relevant comparison we can make. And no, I'm not pining for Tubby, just saying that the best comparison would be how coaching tenures evolved from year to year. Tubby started going the wrong way in Year 4, maybe Pitino will be just the opposite? Sure hope so.
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2007-08: 20-14 (8-10), NIT 1st round
2008-09: 22-11 (9-9), NCAA 1st round

2013-14: 25-13 (8-10), NIT champions
2014-15: 13-9 (2-7)

Nothing special and nothing bad about either of those years for Tubby.
 

A few thoughts.

1. No one is "giving up on Pitino" outside of a few irrational posters. 99% aren't.

2. I never understand these type of posts like the OP. Yes, some coaches aren't great their first few years and then turn into HOF coaches. That is so the minority it's not even funny. It's not just the OP, it happens all the time. People love to point out that Alvarez didn't start strong at UW after Brew's first year. Well Brew got canned. Fans at every school do this which is fine. But to try to suggest anything out of it is nonsense. We can just say this: a few coaches turn into HOFers, the overwhelming majority get fired. Hopefully Pitino is the former like his Dad, but it has nothing to do with his first few seasons, regardless if they were good or bad.

There is reason to be concerned. No one is giving up on Pitino.
 

I've had this same thought so I'm mostly on the same page as you that I'm nowhere near jumping off yet.

However, while I'm excited by our recruits, we're still not top of the BIG by any means (waits for "who cares about stars" guys to jump on me) and we've had some program attrition with our depth. So in year 3, barring something crazy, I'll have my lowest expectations for a team we've had with Pitino. Year 4 is do-or-die.
 

SelectionSunday said:
I would like to see 2007-08 and 2008-09 compared to 2013-14 and 2014-15. That's the most relevant comparison we can make. And no, I'm not pining for Tubby, just saying that the best comparison would be how coaching tenures evolved from year to year. Tubby started going the wrong way in Year 4, maybe Pitino will be just the opposite? Sure hope so.
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Difference is in style changes. You take a hi lo team and ask them to play up tempo pressure defense. You ask a bunch of JUCOs, transfers, and half recruited guys to play in the b1g, you're gonna get rough results.

Does Pitino's defense cause turnovers? Yup
Does his offense get good looks consistently ? Yup
Is he bringing in progressively better classes? Yup

Same could be said for tubby in the beginning too. He has the added clout to bring in a top class in year one. Pitinos name didn't get him the boost we all had hoped it would.
 

Stan said:
A few thoughts.

1. No one is "giving up on Pitino" outside of a few irrational posters. 99% aren't.

2. I never understand these type of posts like the OP. Yes, some coaches aren't great their first few years and then turn into HOF coaches. That is so the minority it's not even funny. It's not just the OP, it happens all the time. People love to point out that Alvarez didn't start strong at UW after Brew's first year. Well Brew got canned. Fans at every school do this which is fine. But to try to suggest anything out of it is nonsense. We can just say this: a few coaches turn into HOFers, the overwhelming majority get fired. Hopefully Pitino is the former like his Dad, but it has nothing to do with his first few seasons, regardless if they were good or bad.

There is reason to be concerned. No one is giving up on Pitino.
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Like I said in the OP, I'm not saying Pitino will be a HOF coach, just that it's way to early to be bashing the coach like I see everywhere I look on GopherHole. This is just an interesting comparison to hopefully get some fans not as depressed about the future.
 

If the results of this season and last season could be swapped, we'd probably all be thrilled with the slow re-build occurring a la Jerry Kill. But to return a decent team, have a decent non-conference and then go completely in the ditch is so disheartening.
 

Not giving up, but you have to be delusional to not feel some level of concern....This team regresses game to game. Pitino's post game comments continue to be the same coach-speak drivel we have heard a million times....Which leads me to believe he is clueless or something is going on behind the scenes he doesn't want to elaborate on.
 

mcal24 said:
Like I said in the OP, I'm not saying Pitino will be a HOF coach, just that it's way to early to be bashing the coach like I see everywhere I look on GopherHole. This is just an interesting comparison to hopefully get some fans not as depressed about the future.
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Do you not think he's worthy of criticism? Kevin Ollie is getting criticism this year and he won the national title last year. Coaches get criticism. They are paid well to take it. When you are 2-7 in the Big Ten and continue to lose close games, you get criticism.
 

Stan said:
Do you not think he's worthy of criticism? Kevin Ollie is getting criticism this year and he won the national title last year. Coaches get criticism. They are paid well to take it. When you are 2-7 in the Big Ten and continue to lose close games, you get criticism.
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I guess maybe I'm just not saying it well. Bash him all you want for the performances we have had this year, some have been really ugly, that's completely fine. Just don't get frustrated too much towards the future because coaches don't go from 0 to 100 in just one or two seasons. Give the man a fair amount of time before you give him a true judgement.
 

mcal24 said:
I guess maybe I'm just not saying it well. Bash him all you want for the performances we have had this year, some have been really ugly, that's completely fine. Just don't get frustrated too much towards the future because coaches don't go from 0 to 100 in just one or two seasons. Give the man a fair amount of time before you give him a true judgement.
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+1. Agreed.
 

Looking ahead to next season with regards to who's leaving, who's coming back, recruits coming in, I only see 2 or maybe 3 B1G programs with bleaker outlooks than the 2015-16 Gophers: Penn State, Rutgers, and (perhaps) Northwestern. That's what scares me.

Relative to the rest of the league, where are we going? Programs like Michigan, MSU, OSU, and Wisconsin aren't going anywhere, and there's still Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Maryland, and Purdue that will have key pieces returning. The program in the Big Ten I'd most compare us to now is Nebraska?

Definitely need the next couple recruiting classes to produce a lot of talent. I think it's silly to suggest Pitino should only get 4 years, gotta give him more time than that, but being brutally honest, after this year's major disappointment I can't envision a NCAA bid until at least 2017 or 2018? We can talk until we're blue in the face about direction of the program, but at some point it becomes about getting to the NCAA tourney.
 

I'll be really curious to see what happens with the team next year. This year seems like a mystery but it's actually settling out. As I was watching the game tonight I realized that it's a fairly anxious, thickheaded team that either doesn't like or trust one another. That's the only explanation for the consistent underperformance. The high number of blown layups and missed free throws is nerves. The constant dribbling and one on one play instead of ball movement is a lack of trust in one another. The ridiculous number of head fakes (Joey!!) is a lack of confidence. Fouling a 90% free throw shooter 90 feet from the basket is stupid basketball. This was never an uber talented team but they are pretty good on paper. Really good in the back court, strong in the post and weak at the four. The sum is now well below the parts and I think that's coaching. Hopefully, Pitino figures out a way to get more out of what looks like a weak roster instead of less out of a well above average lineup this year. Also, I hope that he puts together a decent preseason schedule next year so that they aren't shocked when the B1G rolls around.

I think Pitino is really smart and talented. He has had opportunities handed to him (including this one). I'm going to assume that he is smart and talented enough to learn from this year.
 

1997vacatedfinalfour said:
Not giving up, but you have to be delusional to not feel some level of concern....This team regresses game to game. Pitino's post game comments continue to be the same coach-speak drivel we have heard a million times....Which leads me to believe he is clueless or something is going on behind the scenes he doesn't want to elaborate on.
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So you're upset because he uses the same coach speak that every other coach uses?

My opinion is coach speak is just coach speak and doesn't tell us a damn thing about what is going on. Some of the best coaches are terrible in interviews/press conferences while some very bad coaches are great at them.
 

mcal24 said:
I guess maybe I'm just not saying it well. Bash him all you want for the performances we have had this year, some have been really ugly, that's completely fine. Just don't get frustrated too much towards the future because coaches don't go from 0 to 100 in just one or two seasons. Give the man a fair amount of time before you give him a true judgement.
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Its not his inability to go from 0-100 that is concerning me. It is going from 40 to negative 20 in one year when he returned a lot of key contributors that has me concerned/upset.
 

mplarson7 said:
Absolutely a great point. However, this is tough to swallow given how much we returned from a fairly successful season last year.
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But we had a lot of close wins. They can turn to losses real quick. Plenty of rough edges last year also, but the single biggest difference to me is Mattieu.
 

jamiche said:
I think Pitino is really smart and talented. He has had opportunities handed to him (including this one). I'm going to assume that he is smart and talented enough to learn from this year.
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I agree that he has had opportunities handed to him because of his family connections, but why do you feel he is so smart? I believe Andre Hollins, who was offered by both Harvard and Stanford, is probably pretty smart for a college basketball player. Pitino went to Providence, an average private school for Catholic rich kids where his father had been a legendary coach.
 

I think the reaction has been fairly tame for a team that is 2-7 in conference play and has now lost ALL SIX close games in conference play. I think there is a happy medium between "move along there's nothing to see here" and "Pitino sucks, get him out of here". As someone who was incredibly impressed with some of the things Pitino was able to do in year 1, I am somewhere between concerned and very concerned by what we've seen in year 2. The B1G is as bad as I can remember it being, there isn't a team outside of Wisconsin who I'd feel confident about advancing to the round of 32 in the NCAA's this year. The conference was considerably better last year, but the Gophers are considerably worse. Some people point to Austin Hollins, but Austin had a really bad stretch of B1G games last year and we all know we didn't have a healthy Andre Hollins post Wisconsin...and that team still went 8-10 in conference play and probably should have 10-8. I can say Andre Hollins' defense is noticeably improved this year and that Charles Buggs has made some strides, but beyond that? We've clearly seen regression from Mathieu and I'd argue we've seen it from Walker and Eliason too. I don't think a credible claim can be made that anyone outside of Buggs/Hollins has improved an aspect of their game in a noticeable way from last season.

The other side of the coin is that Pitino has put this team in position to win games, and guys have flat out choked. Repeatedly. It's not hard to look back at these 9 games and say that the team could/should be 6-3 or 5-4 right now. The fact is they are 2-7 and coaches that are 2-7 deal with an unhappy fan base.
 

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