Before you give up on Pitino...

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BleedGopher said:
I agree that the lack of contribution out of 4.5 scholarships every single game is huge issue. I think that in large part falls on Pitino. I disagree that "these guys were supposed to play important roles" - as it relates to Martin and Gaston. The only adjectives used with either of those guys were raw and potential. We recruited three guys who can best be described as raw, and one guy who had to RS this year but could also be described as higher risk, due to his past. The raw guys haven't developed quickly, one left and the higher risk recruit didn't make it to the first exhibition game.

Go Gophers!!
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Bingo.

Losing McNeil hurt. Still doesn't excuse 2-7 with an experienced team.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
Its on pace to be pretty ugly. Halfway through the B1G season, we are on pace to win one more conference game than Jim Molinari did in his forgettable season (and he had two less games to do it in). Obviously, the second half could be better for us, but it could also be worse.
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We lost to Winona St., Marist, Montana, Alabama-Birmingham, and Arkansas-Little Rock that year. 12 of 13 conference losses were by 10 or more points.

I stand by my statement that the program is not "reaching new lows this season" at this point.
 

Only at Minnesota would you fire a coach who made the tournament 3 out of 6 years, the last year actually making it to the round of 32 before you fire him, then bring in an unproven coach and call it a success if he makes the tournament for the first time in year 4
 

jjgopher said:
Only at Minnesota would you fire a coach who made the tournament 3 out of 6 years, the last year actually making it to the round of 32 before you fire him, then bring in an unproven coach and call it a success if he makes the tournament for the first time in year 4
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At least fans at the new stop don't need to wring their hands over tight conference losses with the last 3 losses being 20 points or more including a 45 point blowout in the last game!
 

jjgopher said:
Only at Minnesota would you fire a coach who made the tournament 3 out of 6 years, the last year actually making it to the round of 32 before you fire him, then bring in an unproven coach and call it a success if he makes the tournament for the first time in year 4
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Of course there is a lot more to it than this. The type of players and system Pitino wants is quite a bit different than Tubby.
 


GophersInIowa said:
We lost to Winona St., Marist, Montana, Alabama-Birmingham, and Arkansas-Little Rock that year. 12 of 13 conference losses were by 10 or more points.

I stand by my statement that the program is not "reaching new lows this season" at this point.
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I would agree that what you've described is as bad as it gets for Minnesota (or pretty much any Big Ten team for that matter) and this year isn't that bad. Glad I wasn't really a fan then, because this year is bad enough for me. Actually, I would gauge my frustration level at only slightly above Tubby's last year. That year was very frustrating because the mediocre conference record followed a 15-1 start. I expected significantly better things from the Gophers this year than they've delivered but my expectations were never as high for this team as Tubby's last team. The conference start this year also led to an expectations adjustment pretty quickly.

Still, there is the nagging question of "How low can they go?" Obviously they are in no danger of losing to Winona St. or Marist, but after the PSU game, the answer could be "lower than I previously imagined."
 

XMan said:
we need him to go out and find a Juco power forward next year that can give us a ton of minutes. Easier said than done.
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I hate to break it to you.....but Joey King won't be close to the biggest weakness on the team next year. We are going to have a lot bigger problems them him.
 

GophersInIowa said:
Of course there is a lot more to it than this. The type of players and system Pitino wants is quite a bit different than Tubby.
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Who are Tubby's players on this team? Andre Hollins, Walker, EE and Buggs. The rest are Pitino's players. Thank God we have Tubby's players....if it wasn't for Hollins 60 points in the two games we won we would be 0-9.
 

ethomasp31 said:
I hate to break it to you.....but Joey King won't be close to the biggest weakness on the team next year. We are going to have a lot bigger problems them him.
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I see what you did there. I agree, a Juco center is the # 1 need for the three open scholarships. Konate has potential, but he's not even close to being ready start in the B1G next year, and that's an awful lot to ask of out Nwankwo, who IIRC, is more of a 4/5 than a true center.

At the 4, we don't lose anyone. Granted it's not a strength now. But Buggs should continue to improve and be the starter and you can do worse than King as your back-up + Gaston can play there.
 



ethomasp31 said:
Who are Tubby's players on this team? Andre Hollins, Walker, EE and Buggs. The rest are Pitino's players. Thank God we have Tubby's players....if it wasn't for Hollins 60 points in the two games we won we would be 0-9.
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Most teams that aren't Kentucky or Duke would struggle if you took away most/all of their seniors...
 

howeda7 said:
Most teams that aren't Kentucky or Duke would struggle if you took away most/all of their seniors...
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Well next year all of Tubby's players will be gone.....except for Buggs....but I'm sure 90% of the people on here will still be blaming Tubby and his players. We won the NIT last year and had a lot of players returning who were major contributors. Plus, I'm pretty sure we recruited a guy who I heard was going to play 28 minutes a game at power forward. Yet, we are 2-7 in the B1G and we are blaming Tubby's players. And to make matters worse, I think next year looks even more bleak.

Richard Pitino's name....nor is his system are going to make us better. He is going to need to have a couple of good classes. Next years class is okay (I think it's just an average B1G class), but he needs to sign Coffey the next year. If not, I'm going to start to have serious questions as to whether we have the right person leading the program....especially if next year is another 5, 6 or 7 B1G win season.
 

ethomasp31 said:
Well next year all of Tubby's players will be gone.....except for Buggs....but I'm sure 90% of the people on here will still be blaming Tubby and his players. We won the NIT last year and had a lot of players returning who were major contributors. Plus, I'm pretty sure we recruited a guy who I heard was going to play 28 minutes a game at power forward. Yet, we are 2-7 in the B1G and we are blaming Tubby's players. And to make matters worse, I think next year looks even more bleak.

Richard Pitino's name....nor is his system are going to make us better. He is going to need to have a couple of good classes. Next years class is okay (I think it's just an average B1G class), but he needs to sign Coffey the next year. If not, I'm going to start to have serious questions as to whether we have the right person leading the program....especially if next year is another 5, 6 or 7 B1G win season.
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There is plenty of blame to go around. This isn't placing the blame on "Tubby's players" but that senior class has never won more than 8 games in a conference season. I understand defending those players but they have their limitations regardless who the coach is.

Might as well start having your serious doubts now if a 5, 6 or 7 B1G win season next year is what it will take. Based on what we know today that sure appears where things are headed.
 

ethomasp31 said:
Who are Tubby's players on this team? Andre Hollins, Walker, EE and Buggs. The rest are Pitino's players. Thank God we have Tubby's players....if it wasn't for Hollins 60 points in the two games we won we would be 0-9.
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I think you kinda missed my point. The post I responded to essentially said it's crazy we fire a guy who took us to the NCAA tourney 3 of 6 years and then say it is a success if the new coach takes us to one tourney in his first four years. The point I was trying to make was that it takes time to put your own system into place and that is why many people would be okay with that.

This year is extremely disappointing, very few are disputing that. It's just that it does take some time to get your system into place. If we don't see any improvement by year 4 and 5, then it is time to make a move.

My post had nothing to do with Tubby, other than the systems each coach runs is extremely different.
 



BleedGopher said:
We recruited three guys who can best be described as raw, and one guy who had to RS this year but could also be described as higher risk, due to his past. The raw guys haven't developed quickly
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Not sure how you lump Lofton in with the overused 'raw' terminology.

Gaston, who has been with the team about a month has not developed quickly? Ok... He is developing in practice, not games, so who the hell knows how that it going.
 

HOOP DREAMS said:
Not sure how you lump Lofton in with the overused 'raw' terminology.

Gaston, who has been with the team about a month has not developed quickly? Ok... He is developing in practice, not games, so who the hell knows how that it going.
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He is clearly not lumping in Lofton as 'raw'...he specifically excluded him from that group. He said he was higher risk due to his past - obviously accurate (especially in hindsight).
 

ethomasp31 said:
Yet, we are 2-7 in the B1G and we are blaming Tubby's players.
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Most everyone agrees Mathieu has easily been the most disappointing player this year. A lot of people have commented about how much we need to upgrade at PF (King). The blame can be spread around and I don't think everyone is only blaming Tubby's players.

Next years class is okay (I think it's just an average B1G class)
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Rivals ranks it as the 4th best in the conference, ESPN 6th, and 247 sports 7th. But no matter what you think of rankings (like them or hate them), I think this is an above average recruiting class based on our history. The key is to build on that and continue to get better in recruiting.

I was always the first person to defend Tubby and think some people are a little harsh when talking about him. But one of the things I was critical of him was that his recruiting got worse during his time at the U. The two recruits that de-committed when Tubby was let go have done nothing so far in the college career. Alvin Ellis plays less than he did last year for Michigan St. and Alex Foster hardly plays for a terrible Texas Tech team. 2012 was pretty bad as well.
 

jjgopher said:
Only at Minnesota would you fire a coach who made the tournament 3 out of 6 years, the last year actually making it to the round of 32 before you fire him, then bring in an unproven coach and call it a success if he makes the tournament for the first time in year 4
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That is utter bullsnot. Tubby never had a winning season in the Big Ten. When he got here he had a full roster of 12 decent to very good contributing players. In contrast he left Pitino with the two Hollins. Walker would not have hardly played for Tubby. EE is very, very limited. The foundation he inherited is very similar to Kill following Brewster. The difference is Pitino was a miracle worker last year. Even this year we have lost the games by 5 points or less with lousy, thin talent. If McNeil is here at worst we are better than Tubby ever was and it would still be with very limited resources talent wise. IT's not the coach!! Tubby would have been 10 and 20 last year with his talent.
 

GophersInIowa said:
I think you kinda missed my point. The post I responded to essentially said it's crazy we fire a guy who took us to the NCAA tourney 3 of 6 years and then say it is a success if the new coach takes us to one tourney in his first four years. The point I was trying to make was that it takes time to put your own system into place and that is why many people would be okay with that.

This year is extremely disappointing, very few are disputing that. It's just that it does take some time to get your system into place. If we don't see any improvement by year 4 and 5, then it is time to make a move.

My post had nothing to do with Tubby, other than the systems each coach runs is extremely different.
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I don't think what Tubby and Pitino respectively are or were doing is going to be radically different. The reason why is because we play in the Big Ten. I get a chuckle from reading people claiming that Pitino will get his guys who will be suitable for his "system" and then it will be different story. The story will remain the same. We play in the Big Ten and it will continue to be a tough half court defensive game. Pitino won't get any better athletes capable of playing an uptempo system than Ohio State, Michigan State, Maryland, or even Wisconsin gets but no team gets to play a season full of Big 12 or ACC ball in this league because the opponents won't let you play that way.

As far as taking time, well it didn't take Tubby any time to start increasing team wins from his predecessor. Tubby was fired because the feeling was that his best days were behind him, he was coasting, his recruiting had declined, and he was unlikely to be the guy to take the team to a higher level. So, they hired a young coach (too young in my view) who had more "upside." We'll see what his upside is in the coming years but he's not going to change the Big Ten. He'll have to adapt to it. He better get a little more inside combination of size, muscle, and athleticism with the extra scholarships earned from attrition.
 

60's Guy said:
That is utter bullsnot. Tubby never had a winning season in the Big Ten. When he got here he had a full roster of 12 decent to very good contributing players. In contrast he left Pitino with the two Hollins. Walker would not have hardly played for Tubby. EE is very, very limited. The foundation he inherited is very similar to Kill following Brewster. The difference is Pitino was a miracle worker last year. Even this year we have lost the games by 5 points or less with lousy, thin talent. If McNeil is here at worst we are better than Tubby ever was and it would still be with very limited resources talent wise. IT's not the coach!! Tubby would have been 10 and 20 last year with his talent.
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Lol.
 

GophersInIowa said:
Most everyone agrees Mathieu has easily been the most disappointing player this year. A lot of people have commented about how much we need to upgrade at PF (King). The blame can be spread around and I don't think everyone is only blaming Tubby's players.



Rivals ranks it as the 4th best in the conference, ESPN 6th, and 247 sports 7th. But no matter what you think of rankings (like them or hate them), I think this is an above average recruiting class based on our history. The key is to build on that and continue to get better in recruiting.

I was always the first person to defend Tubby and think some people are a little harsh when talking about him. But one of the things I was critical of him was that his recruiting got worse during his time at the U. The two recruits that de-committed when Tubby was let go have done nothing so far in the college career. Alvin Ellis plays less than he did last year for Michigan St. and Alex Foster hardly plays for a terrible Texas Tech team. 2012 was pretty bad as well.
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This isn't about Tubby....the point I was making is if we don't sign Coffey, and we have another bad year next year, things could really start getting bad. I'm not saying we should let Pitino go...but if we can't get a local kid whose dad played at the U to stay here...how are we ever going to get a guy like that play here?

I talked to an assistant coach at an MIAC school back when Tubby was first hired. Here told me whether or not Tubby was going to be successful depended a lot on whether or not he could sign White and Williams. Tubby got them both. The excitement we had when we brought in those two along with Mbakwe was a big for the Gophers as it had been since Clem's glory years. The Gophers program fell apart soon afterward with arrests and injuries and hasn't recovered since. Personally, I think a few breaks back then and things would look a lot different at the U now. Coffey is Pitino's White and Williams.
 

60's Guy said:
That is utter bullsnot. Tubby never had a winning season in the Big Ten. When he got here he had a full roster of 12 decent to very good contributing players. In contrast he left Pitino with the two Hollins. Walker would not have hardly played for Tubby. EE is very, very limited. The foundation he inherited is very similar to Kill following Brewster. The difference is Pitino was a miracle worker last year. Even this year we have lost the games by 5 points or less with lousy, thin talent. If McNeil is here at worst we are better than Tubby ever was and it would still be with very limited resources talent wise. IT's not the coach!! Tubby would have been 10 and 20 last year with his talent.
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Come on.....10 and 20? Seriously? We might win 5 B1G games this year....with a team that was good enough to win the NIT last year. So Pitino was a miracle worker last year and an awful coach this year? I think Tubby left a team that won a game in the NCAA tournament the year before. The bad thing is the roster might be worse next year than it was when Pitino got here.
 

I am definitely not giving up on Pitino, but there are several concerns. Losing 3 starters won't make it easier next year. My biggest concern is that it does not appear that this team is having fun playing the game. Body language is not positive at all. Rebounding is poor, defense is not improving and shooting is suspect. There is a lot to fix before this team is competitive in the Big 10. This year is a huge disappointment, let's hope next year is a big step in the right direction.
 

GophersInIowa said:
Most everyone agrees Mathieu has easily been the most disappointing player this year. A lot of people have commented about how much we need to upgrade at PF (King). The blame can be spread around and I don't think everyone is only blaming Tubby's players.



Rivals ranks it as the 4th best in the conference, ESPN 6th, and 247 sports 7th. But no matter what you think of rankings (like them or hate them), I think this is an above average recruiting class based on our history. The key is to build on that and continue to get better in recruiting.

I was always the first person to defend Tubby and think some people are a little harsh when talking about him. But one of the things I was critical of him was that his recruiting got worse during his time at the U. The two recruits that de-committed when Tubby was let go have done nothing so far in the college career. Alvin Ellis plays less than he did last year for Michigan St. and Alex Foster hardly plays for a terrible Texas Tech team. 2012 was pretty bad as well.
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Those rankings between the 4th to 10th teams in the B1G are very interchangeable and subjective. If we are rated high it's because we are bringing in more players than most of the other teams in the B1G. We don't have one top 100 rated player coming in next year. It's an average B1G class. Better than Rutgers and Northwestern are probably getting, but not as good as what Ohio State and Michigan State usually bring in. Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan, Maryland and Purdue will probably have better classes than the Gophers on average. Nebraska's is probably about the same. If we have a higher rated class it's more than likely because we have more players coming in.
 

If we had Tubby we would have Alex Foster! He looks like the prototypical Tubby big man. And Alvin Ellis.

They certainly would have been upgrades...
 

ethomasp31 said:
Well next year all of Tubby's players will be gone.....except for Buggs....but I'm sure 90% of the people on here will still be blaming Tubby and his players. We won the NIT last year and had a lot of players returning who were major contributors. Plus, I'm pretty sure we recruited a guy who I heard was going to play 28 minutes a game at power forward. Yet, we are 2-7 in the B1G and we are blaming Tubby's players. And to make matters worse, I think next year looks even more bleak.

Richard Pitino's name....nor is his system are going to make us better. He is going to need to have a couple of good classes. Next years class is okay (I think it's just an average B1G class), but he needs to sign Coffey the next year. If not, I'm going to start to have serious questions as to whether we have the right person leading the program....especially if next year is another 5, 6 or 7 B1G win season.
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To paraphrase Dr. Don, then go to the Texas Tech fan board and cheer for them!!! Good riddance if you don't want to support the program
 

ethomasp31 said:
Come on.....10 and 20? Seriously? We might win 5 B1G games this year....with a team that was good enough to win the NIT last year. So Pitino was a miracle worker last year and an awful coach this year? I think Tubby left a team that won a game in the NCAA tournament the year before. The bad thing is the roster might be worse next year than it was when Pitino got here.
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How was it going to be last year without Mathieu (2014 version), the indicted guy (forget his name) and Smith. Smith was non-existent at the end of the year but a key rotational player before that. The two forwards who decomitted weren't going to contribute and you would have been super-thin at guard. SMH, but I still love ya Joe E!!!!
 

jjgopher said:
Only at Minnesota would you fire a coach who made the tournament 3 out of 6 years, the last year actually making it to the round of 32 before you fire him, then bring in an unproven coach and call it a success if he makes the tournament for the first time in year 4
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So many horrible takes in this thread recently, this one might be the worst though the sheer volume of takes from ethomasp31 certainly is impressive. Tubby Smith was fired because he was NEVER above .500 in conference play in SIX years and there was literally zero chance of him changing that stat in year seven. I would say that "only at Minnesota would a coach get 6 years under such a scenario". I agree with you that Pitino is not a "success" if he "makes the tournament" in year four. That's an extremely low bar. If the Gophers are a 8 seed or worse and the talent in the program doesn't have the fan base thinking that years 5 and 6 look better than year 4, then Pitino is certainly not a success.

As for EThomasP31, we'd have a 300 plus pound Mo Walker embarrassing himself on the court if Tubby Smith was still coaching this team. Watching him sumo wrestle (and LOSE) to the obese center that played for Nebraska in Tubby's final season was one of the low lights of Smith's tenure. How about Andre Hollins playing point guard for Tubby the past two years? That would have worked out great seeing as how his ball handling skills are below average for a two. How about more recruits like Foster, Ellis, Ellenson, and Buggs...those are Tubby's last 4 "gets" at Minnesota and exactly ZERO of them have had an impact for their respective teams.

Pitino deserves criticism and I hate to use the football analogy, but this is very close to what Mason (who left his program in worse shape than Brewster did) left Tim Brewster. You had a group of guys that didn't accomplish all that much in their Senior years but were the best pieces on the roster (Mbakwe/Williams etc in Basketball, Cupito/Spaeth etc in football) leaving after an ok year in hoops and a bad year in football with rosters that were left barren by several poor recruiting classes by a coach who had gone stale, lost interest (pick your reason). Pitino inherited one year of Austin Hollins and two years of Andre Hollins with literally nothing else of value...he made Walker in to a valuable player last year. He inherited a program that did not have a player capable of playing PG or PF in the B1G (still doesn't have a PF) and somehow patched together a season that exceeded most of our expectations last year. This year has certainly been a BIG step back and Pitino deserves criticism for that. That said it's flat out INSANE to think this program would be in better shape today that it is no with Tubby Smith still at the helm.

Argue that Pitino was not the right choice by Teague, at least that's an interesting hypothetical. Suggesting that Tubby Smith would have done a better job the past season and a half is hilarious and worthy of mockery.
 

EG#9 said:
So many horrible takes in this thread recently, this one might be the worst though the sheer volume of takes from ethomasp31 certainly is impressive. Tubby Smith was fired because he was NEVER above .500 in conference play in SIX years and there was literally zero chance of him changing that stat in year seven. I would say that "only at Minnesota would a coach get 6 years under such a scenario". I agree with you that Pitino is not a "success" if he "makes the tournament" in year four. That's an extremely low bar. If the Gophers are a 8 seed or worse and the talent in the program doesn't have the fan base thinking that years 5 and 6 look better than year 4, then Pitino is certainly not a success.

As for EThomasP31, we'd have a 300 plus pound Mo Walker embarrassing himself on the court if Tubby Smith was still coaching this team. Watching him sumo wrestle (and LOSE) to the obese center that played for Nebraska in Tubby's final season was one of the low lights of Smith's tenure. How about Andre Hollins playing point guard for Tubby the past two years? That would have worked out great seeing as how his ball handling skills are below average for a two. How about more recruits like Foster, Ellis, Ellenson, and Buggs...those are Tubby's last 4 "gets" at Minnesota and exactly ZERO of them have had an impact for their respective teams.

Pitino deserves criticism and I hate to use the football analogy, but this is very close to what Mason (who left his program in worse shape than Brewster did) left Tim Brewster. You had a group of guys that didn't accomplish all that much in their Senior years but were the best pieces on the roster (Mbakwe/Williams etc in Basketball, Cupito/Spaeth etc in football) leaving after an ok year in hoops and a bad year in football with rosters that were left barren by several poor recruiting classes by a coach who had gone stale, lost interest (pick your reason). Pitino inherited one year of Austin Hollins and two years of Andre Hollins with literally nothing else of value...he made Walker in to a valuable player last year. He inherited a program that did not have a player capable of playing PG or PF in the B1G (still doesn't have a PF) and somehow patched together a season that exceeded most of our expectations last year. This year has certainly been a BIG step back and Pitino deserves criticism for that. That said it's flat out INSANE to think this program would be in better shape today that it is no with Tubby Smith still at the helm.

Argue that Pitino was not the right choice by Teague, at least that's an interesting hypothetical. Suggesting that Tubby Smith would have done a better job the past season and a half is hilarious and worthy of mockery.
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Tubby was the Perry Como of potential Minnesota basketball coaches; LOL. Very relaxed!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj5A7W-0zPY
 

ethomasp31 said:
Those rankings between the 4th to 10th teams in the B1G are very interchangeable and subjective. If we are rated high it's because we are bringing in more players than most of the other teams in the B1G. We don't have one top 100 rated player coming in next year. It's an average B1G class. Better than Rutgers and Northwestern are probably getting, but not as good as what Ohio State and Michigan State usually bring in. Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan, Maryland and Purdue will probably have better classes than the Gophers on average. Nebraska's is probably about the same. If we have a higher rated class it's more than likely because we have more players coming in.
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Kevin Dorsey is in the Top 100 in some sources(rivals). But actually imo this is actually a good recruiting class...we are one PF away from a great one.
 


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