Bball program is in solid shape

[lakesgopher]

Good lord man or boy or whatever you are. Give it a rest. Your arguments are emotional and unintelligent. Stop complimenting yourself. If you had the maturity to evaluate the Gophers for the last few years, you would have realized that many unexpected things happened that kept them away from being good in B1G. It happened to the other teams too, Purdue went down when RH was hurt. Is Painter a bad coach, no. MSU went down when JL went down is IZZO a bad coach, heck no. UW went down when JL was hurt, is Bo Ryan a bad coach, no (maybe). OSU went down when ET was hurt, is Matta a bad coah, no.

Stop being a kid and grow up. Past is past. Support this team and stop trying to prove a point that does not exist. Yes, Gophers lost many games during the last few minutes of the games. You can't blame a coach for this 100%. If Uk din't have Jones, Miller, and Lamb last year, there was no way they could have won the NC. Players need to develope. This year Gophers are developed.

Go Gophers

Good post

 

[notagopherfan]

Of course Tubby recruited them, but can a coach really know if a player is going to transfer in the future? And if so, do you not offer a player you want, and who wants to come to your school, because you have a suspicion that they will leave eventually? Sometimes it just doesn't work out, a player doesn't like his school as much as he thought he would, doesn't feel he's getting enough playing time, etc. Actually, if the three you mentioned, Cobbs, Iverson, and Joseph, had stayed, they likely all would have seen their playing time significantly increase, because players ahead of them in the rotation all got injured. If Joseph had postponed his decision just a week or two, he would have been getting big minutes, but I also feel like playing time might not have been the main reason for him leaving.

How many injuries does it take before it's not a cop-out? We lost two upperclassmen at the same position, the point guard spot (though one of course was a mid-season transfer, not an injury). If our starting five jump off a cliff today, and our walk-ons start getting 20 minutes per game and we win 2 conference games, is it still Tubby's coaching that's at fault for the sudden drop off in quality of play? I don't mean to disrespect our players, but if we lost Oto this year, and then went 5-13 in conference, I could see it as being a cop-out, but Nolen and Mbakwe were arguably the most important players in 2010-11 and 2011-12 respectively. They were each getting 30+ minutes a game. I thought the fact that we were top 15 before Nolen's injury, and were losing game after game afterward would have been proof enough that the injury was the cause of the bad end to the season, and not a sudden drop-off in Tubby's coaching ability.



And with regards to the Kentucky basketball/Minnesota hockey thing, I wasn't trying to argue that Kentucky fans are not passionate about basketball because I have no reason to believe that they aren't. The reason Minnesota is called the state of hockey isn't just because we have passionate hockey fans, but because our state produces lots of high-quality hockey players.

For instance, according to this site, about 5% of current NHL players are from Minnesota, which I'm guessing, based on how many players are in the NHL, is about 35 players. I was also surprised to find that only about 25% of NHL players are American (20% of that 25% are Minnesotan), and that over half the league is Canadian. I knew Canadians loved their hockey, but I didn't know there were so many in the NHL.

According to this site, Rajon Rondo is the only current NBA player born in the state of Kentucky. I don't know if that's accurate or not, it seems like there would be more than one player, so correct me if that's wrong.

Using pro players is only one metric for judging how good a state is at a sport, but it seemed like the easiest one to use. All I was really trying to say was that another poster earlier said that Kentucky basketball and Minnesota hockey are not on the same level because Minnesota produces more hockey talent than Kentucky does basketball talent. I don't think he was trying to say that Kentuckians don't care about basketball as much as Minnesotan's do about hockey.

I know Shelvin Mack and Darius Miller are in the NBA and were born and raised in Kentucky. Scotty Hopson should be there but he's an idiot with NBA talent. We've had 91 NBA/ABA players i believe. Not much talent lately though. Kentucky has been known for producing good basketball players but not so much NBA players. I was just refering to the knowledge base and passion of the fans. If a good bit of your fans have played the sport then it's easy to say they'll be passionate about it. Basketball is that way in Kentucky and I assume hockey is in Minnesota.

As for Tubby and offense, when has the Big Ten ever been known for it's great offense? You win games with defense far more often than you do with offense. Tubby has been successful everywhere he's been but he won 76% of his games at UK. He's won 70% overall and 63% at Minnesota, so he's got some work to do but post season play 4 out of 5 years isn't bad IMO. This is going to be his best year and it's probably the best the big ten has been since he's been there as well. Good luck to you

 

[mplarson7]

Okay, some of you guys are starting to sound like Kentucky fans. And I find that thought sickening.

Are you really going to say you're disappointed when Tubby has had more success here than the Gophers have had in really long time? We "only" make the NIT final? We "only" make the first round of the national tournament? If you think that's bad, you need some perspective. I was a student at SDSU from the fall of 2006 to May of 2010. If you're bored, go look up the season records of the men's basketball team during that time. How many of you know what it's like to lose to New Jersey Institute of Technology, breaking their 30+ game losing streak? Or to be blown out by Idaho twice before January, and it was Idaho's only two wins on the season? And I followed that up by going to Indiana University for graduate school and my first year here was in Crean's 3rd season. Just in case you've forgotten, that was when they followed up 6 and 10-win seasons by winning 12 games.

I know how bad a season can be. I've learned how to accept a season, no matter what it provides. And no matter what, I always enjoy watching my teams and cheering them on.

I can pretty much guarantee that I'm going to get flamed for this post (because it is Gopher Hole, and all). But I really don't care. This is the situation the Gophers are in, the seasons we've had are over and there's nothing we can do about it. What good does complaining do?

 

[Cayman]

Okay, some of you guys are starting to sound like Kentucky fans. And I find that thought sickening.

Are you really going to say you're disappointed when Tubby has had more success here than the Gophers have had in really long time? We "only" make the NIT final? We "only" make the first round of the national tournament? If you think that's bad, you need some perspective. I was a student at SDSU from the fall of 2006 to May of 2010. If you're bored, go look up the season records of the men's basketball team during that time. How many of you know what it's like to lose to New Jersey Institute of Technology, breaking their 30+ game losing streak? Or to be blown out by Idaho twice before January, and it was Idaho's only two wins on the season? And I followed that up by going to Indiana University for graduate school and my first year here was in Crean's 3rd season. Just in case you've forgotten, that was when they followed up 6 and 10-win seasons by winning 12 games.

I know how bad a season can be. I've learned how to accept a season, no matter what it provides. And no matter what, I always enjoy watching my teams and cheering them on.

I can pretty much guarantee that I'm going to get flamed for this post (because it is Gopher Hole, and all). But I really don't care. This is the situation the Gophers are in, the seasons we've had are over and there's nothing we can do about it. What good does complaining do?

Well, a lot of us Gopher basketball fans are also Gopher football fans, so we can at least relate to some of the disappointment of which you speak.

 

[Dr.Don]

Well, a lot of us Gopher basketball fans are also Gopher football fans, so we can at least relate to some of the disappointment of which you speak.

Which also relates to incessant complaining and never ending pessimism?

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

For the record I don't think Tiny is a "hater". I think it's possible for fans to praise or criticize the coach without "loving" or "hating" him. There are definitely some people who "hate" Tubby, I just don't think Tiny's one of them. These haters never wanted Tubby hired & have looked for every opportunity, through good & bad to bad mouth him. Over at GopherIllustrated.com (Makes a great Christmas gift btw!) they've got several posters who're openly rooting against us so that Tubby will get fired & we can get a new coach & start over (the basketball IQ & forum on GH is head & shoulders better btw). Again, there are some real "haters", Tiny's just not one of them imo.

 

[tinyarch]

Good lord man or boy or whatever you are. Give it a rest. Your arguments are emotional and unintelligent. Stop complimenting yourself. If you had the maturity to evaluate the Gophers for the last few years, you would have realized that many unexpected things happened that kept them away from being good in B1G. It happened to the other teams too, Purdue went down when RH was hurt. Is Painter a bad coach, no. MSU went down when JL went down is IZZO a bad coach, heck no. UW went down when JL was hurt, is Bo Ryan a bad coach, no (maybe). OSU went down when ET was hurt, is Matta a bad coah, no.

Stop being a kid and grow up. Past is past. Support this team and stop trying to prove a point that does not exist. Yes, Gophers lost many games during the last few minutes of the games. You can't blame a coach for this 100%. If Uk din't have Jones, Miller, and Lamb last year, there was no way they could have won the NC. Players need to develope. This year Gophers are developed.

Go Gophers

First, the other coaches you mentioned who lost players never ended up in 9th place two years in a row because of it. They made adjustments and maintained their competitive edge. If this program is now in solid shape then the Gophers should be able to withstand the loss of a significant player and still be at least middle of the B1G. If we drop off to 9th place again, then the argument of being in solid shape is untrue.

Perhaps it's just that you and I have a different standard regarding what "solid shape" looks like.

As for Tubby, I do not hate Tubby. But, at the same time, I don't find his offensive sets very creative or all that effective as a whole. I can think of a number of head coaches whose teams are more efficient in the offensive half-court. It's a criticism of Tubby, not a hatred for Tubby. There is a difference.

Redundantly, I remind you that I think Tubby is one of the premiere defensive coaches in the nation. It's what he's good at. Having an efficient offense is not his strength. I don't hate Tubby, personally, but I do get frustrated with his seeming lack of being able to adjust his offensive sets to defenses as has been exhibited in the past B1G seasons. We haven't played this years B1G season yet so there is no way we can judge what this specific team will do in the B1G. THIS is why I reference the past seasons. Let's see how the Gophers do in the B1G this season and then we can revisit whether my observations of the past showed up in B1G play or whether this team had an altogether different look to it. Costa has a much better take on my thoughts about Tubby than many others have. Listen to him rather than get yourself up into your "Cujo" lather.

 

[Cayman]

First, the other coaches you mentioned who lost players never ended up in 9th place two years in a row because of it. They made adjustments and maintained their competitive edge. If this program is now in solid shape then the Gophers should be able to withstand the loss of a significant player and still be at least middle of the B1G. If we drop off to 9th place again, then the argument of being in solid shape is untrue.

Those teams did not experience such dramatic effects from injuries because those players were only out for a handful of games.

Without Evan Turner, the 2009-10 Buckeyes went 3-3, beginning with a loss at #20 Butler, 3 wins over some non-conference scrubs, then losing their first two Big Ten games (they finished 14-4 in conference), including a 22 point loss at Wisconsin, and a loss at Michigan which would end up at 7-11 in the Big Ten, causing them to drop out of the top 25 from their #15 ranking. After getting Evan Turner back, they went 19-4 the rest of the way, with 3 of those four losses coming against top 15 teams (the other one to Minnesota). They were night and day with Evan Turner versus without him.

Purdue lost Robbie Hummel against Minnesota in late February, and only ended up beating the Gophers by 1. They only played three full regular season games without him, 2 of them against Indiana and Penn State. Even if they had lost to the Gophers, Indiana, and Penn State, the worst they could have finished at that point would have been 10-8 for a tie for 4th in the conference, so it was literally impossible for them to even drop into the bottom half of the conference after Hummel's injury. They then beat Northwestern in the Big Ten tournament before getting absolutely dominated by Minnesota in the next round. They lost in the Sweet Sixteen to Duke.

Wisconsin seemed to fare better without Leuer than we did without Mbakwe, going 6-3 without him. But if you look at who they played, they went 1-3 during that span against teams that finished with winning conference records, though their one win was an impressive 18 point home victory over eventual Big Ten champ Michigan State. Their other five wins came against teams that won no more than 7 conference games. So they actually did fairly well without Leuer, but they were also only without Leuer for 9 games, we were without Mbakwe for 20+.


Wisconsin without Jon Leuer seems to the best case to be made for an injury not destroying the season, and he wasn't even out for half as long as Mbakwe was, and Wisconsin played fewer games without Leuer than we did without Walker, Nolen, AND Joseph. Purdue is not a good example because they lost Hummel in the 15th of 18 conference games, and that Purdue team at full health was probably better than either the 2010-11 or 2011-12 Gophers would have been at full health. Evan Turner at Ohio State probably proves the opposite, that teams play significantly worse when their best players are out. They were .500 without him, losing to the only good teams they played during that stretch, and they lit up the Big Ten going 14-2 with him and winning the conference tourney.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Those teams did not experience such dramatic effects from injuries because those players were only out for a handful of games.

Without Evan Turner, the 2009-10 Buckeyes went 3-3, beginning with a loss at #20 Butler, 3 wins over some non-conference scrubs, then losing their first two Big Ten games (they finished 14-4 in conference), including a 22 point loss at Wisconsin, and a loss at Michigan which would end up at 7-11 in the Big Ten, causing them to drop out of the top 25 from their #15 ranking. After getting Evan Turner back, they went 19-4 the rest of the way, with 3 of those four losses coming against top 15 teams (the other one to Minnesota). They were night and day with Evan Turner versus without him.

Purdue lost Robbie Hummel against Minnesota in late February, and only ended up beating the Gophers by 1. They only played three full regular season games without him, 2 of them against Indiana and Penn State. Even if they had lost to the Gophers, Indiana, and Penn State, the worst they could have finished at that point would have been 10-8 for a tie for 4th in the conference, so it was literally impossible for them to even drop into the bottom half of the conference after Hummel's injury. They then beat Northwestern in the Big Ten tournament before getting absolutely dominated by Minnesota in the next round. They lost in the Sweet Sixteen to Duke.Wisconsin seemed to fare better without Leuer than we did without Mbakwe, going 6-3 without him. But if you look at who they played, they went 1-3 during that span against teams that finished with winning conference records, though their one win was an impressive 18 point home victory over eventual Big Ten champ Michigan State. Their other five wins came against teams that won no more than 7 conference games. So they actually did fairly well without Leuer, but they were also only without Leuer for 9 games, we were without Mbakwe for 20+.


Wisconsin without Jon Leuer seems to the best case to be made for an injury not destroying the season, and he wasn't even out for half as long as Mbakwe was, and Wisconsin played fewer games without Leuer than we did without Walker, Nolen, AND Joseph. Purdue is not a good example because they lost Hummel in the 15th of 18 conference games, and that Purdue team at full health was probably better than either the 2010-11 or 2011-12 Gophers would have been at full health. Evan Turner at Ohio State probably proves the opposite, that teams play significantly worse when their best players are out. They were .500 without him, losing to the only good teams they played during that stretch, and they lit up the Big Ten going 14-2 with him and winning the conference tourney.

Before losing in the Sweet 16, they had to beat two NCAA tournament teams without their best player.

 

[The-Real-Truth]

Those teams did not experience such dramatic effects from injuries because those players were only out for a handful of games.

Without Evan Turner, the 2009-10 Buckeyes went 3-3, beginning with a loss at #20 Butler, 3 wins over some non-conference scrubs, then losing their first two Big Ten games (they finished 14-4 in conference), including a 22 point loss at Wisconsin, and a loss at Michigan which would end up at 7-11 in the Big Ten, causing them to drop out of the top 25 from their #15 ranking. After getting Evan Turner back, they went 19-4 the rest of the way, with 3 of those four losses coming against top 15 teams (the other one to Minnesota). They were night and day with Evan Turner versus without him.

Purdue lost Robbie Hummel against Minnesota in late February, and only ended up beating the Gophers by 1. They only played three full regular season games without him, 2 of them against Indiana and Penn State. Even if they had lost to the Gophers, Indiana, and Penn State, the worst they could have finished at that point would have been 10-8 for a tie for 4th in the conference, so it was literally impossible for them to even drop into the bottom half of the conference after Hummel's injury. They then beat Northwestern in the Big Ten tournament before getting absolutely dominated by Minnesota in the next round. They lost in the Sweet Sixteen to Duke.

Wisconsin seemed to fare better without Leuer than we did without Mbakwe, going 6-3 without him. But if you look at who they played, they went 1-3 during that span against teams that finished with winning conference records, though their one win was an impressive 18 point home victory over eventual Big Ten champ Michigan State. Their other five wins came against teams that won no more than 7 conference games. So they actually did fairly well without Leuer, but they were also only without Leuer for 9 games, we were without Mbakwe for 20+.


Wisconsin without Jon Leuer seems to the best case to be made for an injury not destroying the season, and he wasn't even out for half as long as Mbakwe was, and Wisconsin played fewer games without Leuer than we did without Walker, Nolen, AND Joseph. Purdue is not a good example because they lost Hummel in the 15th of 18 conference games, and that Purdue team at full health was probably better than either the 2010-11 or 2011-12 Gophers would have been at full health. Evan Turner at Ohio State probably proves the opposite, that teams play significantly worse when their best players are out. They were .500 without him, losing to the only good teams they played during that stretch, and they lit up the Big Ten going 14-2 with him and winning the conference tourney.

Great post. Thank you Cayman.

Go Gophers

 

[Cayman]

Before losing in the Sweet 16, they had to beat two NCAA tournament teams without their best player.

Purdue was ranked in the top 10 for all but two weeks in the 2009-10 season, and was a 4 seed in the tournament. They beat 13 seed Sienna, which I don't think is really a major accomplishment, and they beat 5 seed Texas A&M, which is about the only notable thing they accomplished post-Hummel injury, which I don't think is enough to offset a home loss to fellow Big Ten champ Michigan State coupled with a 27 point loss to Minnesota in the Big Ten Tournament.

Even without Robbie Hummel, Purdue still had

E'Twuan Moore, 2009-10 First Team All Big Ten, 2008-09 Second Team All Big Ten
JaJuan Johonson, 2009-10 Second Team All Big Ten, All Big Ten Defensive, 2008-09 First Team All Big Ten, All Big Ten Defensive
Chris Kramer, 2009-10 All Big Ten Honorable Mention, All Big Ten Defensive, 2008-09 All Big Ten Defensive
Kelsey Barlow, 2009-10 Big Ten All Freshman team
Lewis Jackson, 2008-09 Big Ten All Freshman team

Robbie Hummel may have been their best player, but he was just one of many All Big Ten quality players on that team. Purdue was loaded that year. I also didn't include accolades achieved after the 2009-10 season, and I believe JaJuan Johnson was Big Ten player of the year in 2010-11.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

First, the other coaches you mentioned who lost players never ended up in 9th place two years in a row because of it. They made adjustments and maintained their competitive edge. If this program is now in solid shape then the Gophers should be able to withstand the loss of a significant player and still be at least middle of the B1G. If we drop off to 9th place again, then the argument of being in solid shape is untrue.

Tubby's literally had to rebuild the roster after that heartbreaking 10'-11' season & we now have enough depth at every position except PG that we could lose our starter & still make a Sweet-16 run. Lose Elliot, Trevor, Rodney, Mo, Oto, Joe, Welch, Mav, Ingram...even Austin, no problem we can overcome! Lose Dre Hollins though & we're a borderline tourney team. That's the one thing that could cost us our season & potentially Tubby his job (which would be a huge blow to the program).

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

Those teams did not experience such dramatic effects from injuries because those players were only out for a handful of games.

Without Evan Turner, the 2009-10 Buckeyes went 3-3, beginning with a loss at #20 Butler, 3 wins over some non-conference scrubs, then losing their first two Big Ten games (they finished 14-4 in conference), including a 22 point loss at Wisconsin, and a loss at Michigan which would end up at 7-11 in the Big Ten, causing them to drop out of the top 25 from their #15 ranking. After getting Evan Turner back, they went 19-4 the rest of the way, with 3 of those four losses coming against top 15 teams (the other one to Minnesota). They were night and day with Evan Turner versus without him.

Purdue lost Robbie Hummel against Minnesota in late February, and only ended up beating the Gophers by 1. They only played three full regular season games without him, 2 of them against Indiana and Penn State. Even if they had lost to the Gophers, Indiana, and Penn State, the worst they could have finished at that point would have been 10-8 for a tie for 4th in the conference, so it was literally impossible for them to even drop into the bottom half of the conference after Hummel's injury. They then beat Northwestern in the Big Ten tournament before getting absolutely dominated by Minnesota in the next round. They lost in the Sweet Sixteen to Duke.

Wisconsin seemed to fare better without Leuer than we did without Mbakwe, going 6-3 without him. But if you look at who they played, they went 1-3 during that span against teams that finished with winning conference records, though their one win was an impressive 18 point home victory over eventual Big Ten champ Michigan State. Their other five wins came against teams that won no more than 7 conference games. So they actually did fairly well without Leuer, but they were also only without Leuer for 9 games, we were without Mbakwe for 20+.


Wisconsin without Jon Leuer seems to the best case to be made for an injury not destroying the season, and he wasn't even out for half as long as Mbakwe was, and Wisconsin played fewer games without Leuer than we did without Walker, Nolen, AND Joseph. Purdue is not a good example because they lost Hummel in the 15th of 18 conference games, and that Purdue team at full health was probably better than either the 2010-11 or 2011-12 Gophers would have been at full health. Evan Turner at Ohio State probably proves the opposite, that teams play significantly worse when their best players are out. They were .500 without him, losing to the only good teams they played during that stretch, and they lit up the Big Ten going 14-2 with him and winning the conference tourney.

Good post BUT....We weren't going anywhere last year with or without Trevor. Sure we would have been better with him, but without a PG we were not going to be good. What was a complete season-ender was losing Al Nolen 2 years ago. That year we could have been VERY good.

 

[howieramone]

Tubby's literally had to rebuild the roster after that heartbreaking 10'-11' season & we now have enough depth at every position except PG that we could lose our starter & still make a Sweet-16 run. Lose Elliot, Trevor, Rodney, Mo, Oto, Joe, Welch, Mav, Ingram...even Austin, no problem we can overcome! Lose Dre Hollins though & we're a borderline tourney team. That's the one thing that could cost us our season & potentially Tubby his job (which would be a huge blow to the program).

+1

 

[Cayman]

Good post BUT....We weren't going anywhere last year with or without Trevor. Sure we would have been better with him, but without a PG we were not going to be good. What was a complete season-ender was losing Al Nolen 2 years ago. That year we could have been VERY good.

I definitely agree that losing Nolen and Joseph in 2010-11 was a bigger blow than losing Mbakwe the year after, but in 2011-12, in both Iowa games and Michigan State, we were leading for a lot of the game and lost it at the end. The end of the Michigan State game was maybe the most painful thing I had to watch last season. Not to mention we lost to Wisconsin at home in overtime, and I think we had a 10 point lead or something in Madison at some point and let it evaporate, I wasn't able to watch that game, but I thought I heard that was what happened. But I think having senior leader Mbakwe on the court to rally the troops late in the game might have been enough to close out some of those games and get us a few extra conference wins to get us to 9-9 or even 10-8 and make the tournament.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

I definitely agree that losing Nolen and Joseph in 2010-11 was a bigger blow than losing Mbakwe the year after, but in 2011-12, in both Iowa games and Michigan State, we were leading for a lot of the game and lost it at the end. The end of the Michigan State game was maybe the most painful thing I had to watch last season. Not to mention we lost to Wisconsin at home in overtime, and I think we had a 10 point lead or something in Madison at some point and let it evaporate, I wasn't able to watch that game, but I thought I heard that was what happened. But I think having senior leader Mbakwe on the court to rally the troops late in the game might have been enough to close out some of those games and get us a few extra conference wins to get us to 9-9 or even 10-8 and make the tournament.

Agree we would have won a couple extra games, but we would still have backed into the dance, been a very low seed & likely gotten knocked out in the 1st round. You can't beat top teams with Mav/Welch at the 1, & Dre just wasn't ready until the very end of the season due to injury & learning curve. My .02

I'm even tempering my enthusiasm this year as Dre's still young & inconsistent. I feel certain we'll lose us a couple games that we should win due to him having off nights or making bad decisions at crunch time. If you saw the last 30 seconds of the Stanford game you know what I'm talking about. He followed the 41 point game with a virtual no-show, then lobbed a lazy pass cross court during the final possession that was stolen & 9 times out of 10 would have cost us the game. Only amazing hustle by Coleman (?) to get back & re-steal the ball & a bone-headed foul saved Dre from being the goat that day.

 

[Madman]

Wow... I did it.... I read this whole thread in one sitting... quite the controversial statement to say 'the program is in good shape'. One thing that i didn't see once in this thread is the lack of facilities and to me that is a big part of the 'the program' which we all know is not in good shape.

 

[gopherbadgerman]

Wow... I did it.... I read this whole thread in one sitting... quite the controversial statement to say 'the program is in good shape'. One thing that i didn't see once in this thread is the lack of facilities and to me that is a big part of the 'the program' which we all know is not in good shape.

Is the new rumor that the BB practice facility is being looked at as an add on to the FB complex?