Bball program is in solid shape

I've been upbeat about the squad and said I think that they'll win 27 games barring any injury. I really do think this team can be GOOD. We should be a 3-6 seed, maybe higher but it obviously is going to depend on 1. how good the B1G looks at the end of the season, 2. our performance in the conference tournament, 3. how healthy we stay.

Say I'm way off with the number but I don't think its too out there. The only way we don't win 2 tournament games is if we draw a 8-9 seed and have to face a #1 in the 2nd round. This is Tubby's most talented team since he's been here and I think that will get us to the Sweet Sixteen.

The 13-14 team will only be limited by how good EE and Mo become. If they can develop into better inside players and legitimate threats around the blocks we could repeat a lot of what we have done. EE needs to get stronger though, if he was Plumlee status with his shoulders and Mo dropped some lbs while keeping his strength I would expect much the same from this year in 13-14.
 

At the end of the 2009-10 season, we had three viable point guard options on the roster: Al Nolen, Devoe Joseph, and Justin Cobbs, who would have been a senior, a junior, and a sophomore respectively in the 2010-11 season, certainly enough depth at the position. Justin Cobbs transferred shortly after the season ended, leaving us to pick up Maverick Ahanmisi in May. We still had Nolen and Joseph going into that season, however, and Tubby had recruited Joseph as a viable back-up for Nolen, and Jospeh had come on very strong at the end of the 2009-10 season. Nolen had a back-up until about a week before his season ending foot injury. After Cobbs' offseason transfer and then losing both Nolen and Joseph within the span of a week in mid-January, we were left with a freshman spring recruit in Maverick, and Blake Hoffarber. We lost Justin Cobbs, Devoe Joseph, Al Nolen, Mo Walker, and Paul Carter within the span of less than a year. We had 8 scholarship players at the end of that season, two of whom were spring recruits that we acquired in the wake of Carter and Cobbs' transfers. Walk-on Dominique Dawson was getting minutes in games long before they were decided because we were so low on players. I can kind of understand the "Losing one player shouldn't derail a season," argument, but losing 5 players in less than a year, 3 of whom were point guards, arguably the most important position on the court, is far more than what most teams experience. If you're going to say Tubby didn't recruit enough depth, you're basically saying we should have used 4 or 5 scholarships on point guards, just on the off chance that we lose 3 of them in quick succession. We arguably had more point guard depth at the end of 2009-10 than we do now, if you think Devoe Joseph and Justin Cobbs are better than Welch and Mav, we just lost all of our depth.

With regards to the Mbakwe injury last year, are we just supposed to have another senior all-conference forward sitting on the bench to jump in and take Mbakwe's place? It would be nice to have that, but I don't think it's something you can expect out of this program at this stage. You can't just lose a guy who averages 14 points and 10 rebounds a game and expect everything to go on as normal, not to mention he was one of only two seniors on our team last year, and Ralph never exactly seemed a take-charge kind of leader on the court to me, at least not in the way that Mbakwe was/is.

Look at how Wisconsin is doing without Josh Gasser, they're 5-3. I can't really disrespect them for losing at Florida, Creighton is certainly a good team, though past Wisconsin teams might have won that one, but they lost to Virginia at home, lots of posters seemed very confident that Wisconsin would win that game. They struggled against Arkansas as well, but they did pull out the win. They have one of their better players, if not their best player currently, out with an injury, and they aren't doing as well as they have in the past, they look worse than they have in quite awhile. Injuries cause teams to not play as well as they could otherwise, that's not a coach's fault.

In 2010-11 we beat two top ten teams, then we lost Nolen and Joseph, and we lost 10 of our 12 games after Nolen's season ended prematurely. You don't see that as any reason to believe that losing players had a greater effect than Tubby's coaching? Did Tubby just lose all his coaching acumen at the same time that Al Nolen's foot got injured?



Part of the reason that Minnesota is referred to as the state of hockey is because Minnesota high schools produce a lot of hockey talent. I think I saw somewhere that more current NHL players played for Minnesota high schools than any other state. I think Indiana would be a better comparison as a "state of basketball" in the same way that Minnesota is the state of hockey, than Kentucky. They have a dominant college program and draw heavily from in-state talent because they simply have so much of it. This doesn't really change whether people in Kentucky know a lot about basketball, just explaining why someone might not see Kentucky and basketball in the same way as they see Minnesota and hockey.



Sorry for the long and rambling post, I just don't like the "Tubby didn't recruit enough depth" argument regarding the reasons for having poor seasons in 2010-11 and 2011-12. Having three point guards at the end of the previous season should be enough, and Trevor Mbakwe is not an easily replaceable player, especially when he alone makes up half of the seniors on your team.

Who was responsible for recruiting Cobbs, Iverson, Josephs, etc... You may want to try every trick in the book to dodge the fact that Tubby is responsible, but ultimately...Tubby is responsible.

Injuries happen, we all get that. I just refuse to let that be a cop-out for mediocre coaching. If you wish to do so then it's your choice.

As for the hockey to basketball comparison, I'll let the link I posted speak for itself. If you can't see that Kentucky fans are rabid about basketball, even at the high school level, then I'll never convince you.
 


I view Kentucky high school basketball like wisconsin high school hockey, it's okay, it produced some very good players, but both states have neighboring states that do it better :) I'm sure there are some very passionate fans, just like I'm sure there are passionate hockey fans in Alaska, but I think it's fair to say Indiana is more passionate about high school basketball than Kentucky, I do think it's fair to compare UK hoops to gopher hockey, after all there were a lot people who wanted Lucia's ahead despite two national titles, and now four frozen fours, not to mention all the final five and wcha league titles
 

As for injuries and coaching if Nolen stays healthy or Joseph waits another week, I don't think Tubby looks so "mediocre" after all the 2011 team was #13 in the polls at one point. Injuries happen, but the same thing happen to the '11 gophers and the '04 T-Wolves. Lose your top two PG's and you're in trouble, thw wolves had some D-league guy running the point vs the lakers when Hudson and Cassell went down, the gophers, had a two guard who couldn't create his own shot in Hoff and Mav, the Ryan Collado of the basketball team. At the end of the day a coach is only as good as his players and a player is only as good as his coach think he is.
 


I'm not sure that the program is in good shape just because we happen to be having our best season in recent memory. Let's see how far we fall off next year before we make that statement. Even if this year's team makes a deep run in the tourney, there's a very strong likliehood that we'll be back in the NIT next year....that makes me heistant to make the claim that the poster used in the headline of this thread.
 

That's definitely a fair take. I would counter with the thought that teams usually perform best when everyone has consistent, defined roles. When and if Mbakwe is fully integrated back into the roster, that naturally means other players' roles and minutes will diminish. The likelihood is that is a good thing for us, but there is potential for it to backfire, i.e., players stand around and wait for Mbakwe to do something. If the re-integration goes seamlessly, I think a 3 seed is not at all unreasonable. If it doesn't go so smoothly, we might end up being very happy with a 6 seed.

This is why I'm not in the group of people who are upset that Mbakwe isn't starting yet.
 

I view Kentucky high school basketball like wisconsin high school hockey, it's okay, it produced some very good players, but both states have neighboring states that do it better :) I'm sure there are some very passionate fans, just like I'm sure there are passionate hockey fans in Alaska, but I think it's fair to say Indiana is more passionate about high school basketball than Kentucky, I do think it's fair to compare UK hoops to gopher hockey, after all there were a lot people who wanted Lucia's ahead despite two national titles, and now four frozen fours, not to mention all the final five and wcha league titles

Perhaps you didn't read the article I posted earlier in regard to the Indiana - Louisville - Kentucky Triangle.

Let me paste it for everyone to read so people can understand my comments.

6:47PM EDT October 17. 2012 - Rick Pitino still remembers the first time he was told about weddings and funerals in the Commonwealth of Kentucky.

Never, ever have them on the day the Wildcats are playing.

The first two years, I thought people were putting me on,'' Pitino said of his early days as Kentucky's coach in the 1990s. "Finally, I realized they weren't putting me on. It really is that important.''

Now Pitino coaches Louisville, where 1,400 fans showed up the other day just to hear him talk basketball at lunch.

He can look north across the Ohio River to Indiana, where there are 33 high school gyms that seat at least 5,000 people.

He can look east toward Lexington, where all the tickets for Kentucky's first open practice – Big Blue Madness -- were gone in 35 minutes, with 600 tents of people camping out to be first in line.

Indiana. Louisville. Kentucky. They go 1-2-3 in the first USA Today coaches' poll, like neighbors in mansions on the same swanky street. All, of course, with basketball goals in their driveways.

"I thought I understood it before I ever moved here,'' Indiana coach Tom Crean
said. "It took about three days for me to realize I didn't have any gauge on
it. You can get it in bits and pieces watching it on TV, but until you really
get in here and spend a little time, you don't realize just how deep the passion is.

It would be like what Alabama football fans would feel.''

Crean's No. 1 Hoosiers return the top five scorers from a Sweet 16 team, led by Cody Zeller, one of the leading candidates for national player for the year. No. 2
Louisville brings back most of a Final Four lineup, led by point guard Peyton
Siva. No. 3 Kentucky, which said goodbye to the first two picks in the 2012 NBA
draft and three other first- or second-rounders, depends on a new wave of freshman blue chippers, pausing on the road to the NBA to sign with John Calipari, who knows how to thrive with them.

To take the scenic route from Indiana University to the University of Louisville, you go 100 miles through the hills of southern Indiana, passing within nine miles of French Lick and Larry Bird's old jump-shooting grounds. To get from Louisville to Lexington and the University of Kentucky, you slice 76 miles across the Bluegrass State on Interstate 64.

You can visit all three in one afternoon, a 3½-hour drive past barns and basketball lovers.

"It's a 365-day thing here,'' Kentucky Sports Radio host Matt Jones said. "They don't just care. They care all the time.''

Added Evan Daniels, national recruiting analyst for Scout.com: "Basketball is everything. Basketball is absolutely everything in the states of Kentucky and Indiana.''

You can measure that in success. Together, the three have won 15 national championships and gone to 32 Final Fours. The last time an NCAA tournament bracket did not include at least one of them was 1965.

You can measure it in fan support. Kentucky has been first or second in national attendance every year since Rupp Arena opened in 1976, and led last season with 23,721 fans a game. Louisville was third at 21,503; Indiana, in a smaller arena, ninth at 16,462. In 2002, they were 1-2-3 in attendance.

You can measure it in money. According to Sports Business Journal, Louisville was No. 1 without peer in basketball revenue for the 2010-11 season at $40.9 million. Duke was a distant second at $28.9 million. Kentucky was sixth, Indiana seventh.

You can measure it in passion, of a pure and virulent stripe that coaches appreciate, if never quite fully understand. "They're crazy,'' Kentucky coach John Calipari said lovingly at last spring's Final Four of Wildcat fans. "I love it, but they watch tapes more than I watch tapes.''

Pitino added, "Basketball means so much to people. I find it absolutely refreshing. When I see all these football moves where everybody's got to go out of their (conferences), then see all the other sports have to make adjustments to football, it (is) great for college basketball to see something like this happen.''

You can measure it in ticket demand. At the 1980 NCAA Mideast Regional at Rupp Arena, back when teams could play at home, the semifinals had Indiana vs. Purdue and Kentucky vs. Duke. But the real prize was the championship game session, because it would almost certainly be Indiana against Kentucky. On the street outside, a scalper asked $100 for the two-session ticket. But both Purdue and Duke pulled off upsets. The same scalper stood outside afterward, offering tickets to the Plan B title game. He wanted $5.

You can measure it by the intensity of feeling between the schools. Kentucky and Louisville could not agree to meet during the regular season for 60 years, coming to an accord in 1983 only when the state legislature began twisting arms.

Kentucky and Indiana have met every season since 1969, but that series is going on hiatus because they could not compromise on a playing site this season. Indiana and Louisville have managed only 16 meetings.

"You move on and you hope it turns around somewhere down the road,'' Crean said of the divorce with Kentucky. "I would think that at some point there'd be a series with Louisville. I think it'd be good especially if we're not playing Kentucky.''

"We would love to play them,'' Pitino said of the Hoosiers.

Kentucky inflicted arguably the most painful defeat of Bob Knight's career, knocking the unbeaten Hoosiers out of the 1975 NCAA tournament.

Indiana upset Kentucky on Christian Watford's buzzer-beater last season. It was a moment replayed so often -- even on an ESPN promo -- that Wildcats forward Michael Kidd-Gilchrist said before their Sweet 16 rematch, "I hate that commercial. We're going to get them back.''

They did. Kidd-Gilchrist scored 24 points in a 102-90 Wildcats victory.

And when Kentucky and Louisville met in the Final Four last April, the therapists of the Commonwealth were on standby.

"There will be people in Kentucky that will have a nervous breakdown if they lose to us,'' Pitino said that week. "They've got to put up fences on the bridges. There will be people consumed by Louisville.''

Kentucky won 69-61.

The three teams enter this season together at the top, alike in their fervor for the game, but divided in their loyalties.

"There's certainly an amount of local pride – even though these teams all kind of hate each other – that this is the center of college basketball again,'' Jones said.

You can tell by who wins the hearts and minds of their state.

"It's like a vicarious kind of pride, a sense of involvement,'' said Dr. Mary K. Anglin, chair of the University of Kentucky department of anthropology, and possibly the only person on campus who has never been to a Wildcats game.

"People get involved in the stories of the kids, so they know different kinds of stats. They know their interests. It's this whole kind of running saga.''

Kentucky has no major professional sports for competition, but it's ridiculous to think of Wildcats fans ever having their attention diverted, anyway.

"I think you could actually almost invert it,'' Anglin said. "A professional team of some amazing caliber would have a worrisome time coming to Lexington because they'd have to compete with this."

Such good teams, such high rankings, such loud noises from the fanatical and long lines of the faithful.

And if all three neighbors reach the same Final Four, it would be the greatest block party in college basketball history.

"I'm not sure it'll happen,'' Pitino said. "But it would be a lot of fun.''

Contributing: Nicole Auerbach and Eric Prisbell

Hopefully this helps people understand my comments regarding Kentucky and basketball. The only thing that Minnesotans can compare it to is our love for hockey. Thus, my comment that people in Kentucky are intelligent basketball fans.
 




Perhaps you didn't read the article I posted earlier in regard to the Indiana - Louisville - Kentucky Triangle.

Let me paste it for everyone to read so people can understand my comments

Passion and intelligence don't necessarily correlate, Arch. The most passionate consumers of news these days usually watch MSNBC and Fox News. I'd say that doesn't necessarily mean that said viewers are the most well-informed and politically thoughtful citizens in our fair country.
 

Who was responsible for recruiting Cobbs, Iverson, Josephs, etc... You may want to try every trick in the book to dodge the fact that Tubby is responsible, but ultimately...Tubby is responsible.

Injuries happen, we all get that. I just refuse to let that be a cop-out for mediocre coaching. If you wish to do so then it's your choice.

As for the hockey to basketball comparison, I'll let the link I posted speak for itself. If you can't see that Kentucky fans are rabid about basketball, even at the high school level, then I'll never convince you.

Of course Tubby recruited them, but can a coach really know if a player is going to transfer in the future? And if so, do you not offer a player you want, and who wants to come to your school, because you have a suspicion that they will leave eventually? Sometimes it just doesn't work out, a player doesn't like his school as much as he thought he would, doesn't feel he's getting enough playing time, etc. Actually, if the three you mentioned, Cobbs, Iverson, and Joseph, had stayed, they likely all would have seen their playing time significantly increase, because players ahead of them in the rotation all got injured. If Joseph had postponed his decision just a week or two, he would have been getting big minutes, but I also feel like playing time might not have been the main reason for him leaving.

How many injuries does it take before it's not a cop-out? We lost two upperclassmen at the same position, the point guard spot (though one of course was a mid-season transfer, not an injury). If our starting five jump off a cliff today, and our walk-ons start getting 20 minutes per game and we win 2 conference games, is it still Tubby's coaching that's at fault for the sudden drop off in quality of play? I don't mean to disrespect our players, but if we lost Oto this year, and then went 5-13 in conference, I could see it as being a cop-out, but Nolen and Mbakwe were arguably the most important players in 2010-11 and 2011-12 respectively. They were each getting 30+ minutes a game. I thought the fact that we were top 15 before Nolen's injury, and were losing game after game afterward would have been proof enough that the injury was the cause of the bad end to the season, and not a sudden drop-off in Tubby's coaching ability.



And with regards to the Kentucky basketball/Minnesota hockey thing, I wasn't trying to argue that Kentucky fans are not passionate about basketball because I have no reason to believe that they aren't. The reason Minnesota is called the state of hockey isn't just because we have passionate hockey fans, but because our state produces lots of high-quality hockey players.

For instance, according to this site, about 5% of current NHL players are from Minnesota, which I'm guessing, based on how many players are in the NHL, is about 35 players. I was also surprised to find that only about 25% of NHL players are American (20% of that 25% are Minnesotan), and that over half the league is Canadian. I knew Canadians loved their hockey, but I didn't know there were so many in the NHL.

According to this site, Rajon Rondo is the only current NBA player born in the state of Kentucky. I don't know if that's accurate or not, it seems like there would be more than one player, so correct me if that's wrong.

Using pro players is only one metric for judging how good a state is at a sport, but it seemed like the easiest one to use. All I was really trying to say was that another poster earlier said that Kentucky basketball and Minnesota hockey are not on the same level because Minnesota produces more hockey talent than Kentucky does basketball talent. I don't think he was trying to say that Kentuckians don't care about basketball as much as Minnesotan's do about hockey.
 

Passion and intelligence don't necessarily correlate, Arch. The most passionate consumers of news these days usually watch MSNBC and Fox News. I'd say that doesn't necessarily mean that said viewers are the most well-informed and politically thoughtful citizens in our fair country.

touche' I'll grant you the MSNBC and Faux News crowd! :p
 

Of course Tubby recruited them, but can a coach really know if a player is going to transfer in the future? And if so, do you not offer a player you want, and who wants to come to your school, because you have a suspicion that they will leave eventually? Sometimes it just doesn't work out, a player doesn't like his school as much as he thought he would, doesn't feel he's getting enough playing time, etc. Actually, if the three you mentioned, Cobbs, Iverson, and Joseph, had stayed, they likely all would have seen their playing time significantly increase, because players ahead of them in the rotation all got injured. If Joseph had postponed his decision just a week or two, he would have been getting big minutes, but I also feel like playing time might not have been the main reason for him leaving.

How many injuries does it take before it's not a cop-out? We lost two upperclassmen at the same position, the point guard spot (though one of course was a mid-season transfer, not an injury). If our starting five jump off a cliff today, and our walk-ons start getting 20 minutes per game and we win 2 conference games, is it still Tubby's coaching that's at fault for the sudden drop off in quality of play? I don't mean to disrespect our players, but if we lost Oto this year, and then went 5-13 in conference, I could see it as being a cop-out, but Nolen and Mbakwe were arguably the most important players in 2010-11 and 2011-12 respectively. They were each getting 30+ minutes a game. I thought the fact that we were top 15 before Nolen's injury, and were losing game after game afterward would have been proof enough that the injury was the cause of the bad end to the season, and not a sudden drop-off in Tubby's coaching ability.



And with regards to the Kentucky basketball/Minnesota hockey thing, I wasn't trying to argue that Kentucky fans are not passionate about basketball because I have no reason to believe that they aren't. The reason Minnesota is called the state of hockey isn't just because we have passionate hockey fans, but because our state produces lots of high-quality hockey players.

For instance, according to this site, about 5% of current NHL players are from Minnesota, which I'm guessing, based on how many players are in the NHL, is about 35 players. I was also surprised to find that only about 25% of NHL players are American (20% of that 25% are Minnesotan), and that over half the league is Canadian. I knew Canadians loved their hockey, but I didn't know there were so many in the NHL.

According to this site, Rajon Rondo is the only current NBA player born in the state of Kentucky. I don't know if that's accurate or not, it seems like there would be more than one player, so correct me if that's wrong.

Using pro players is only one metric for judging how good a state is at a sport, but it seemed like the easiest one to use. All I was really trying to say was that another poster earlier said that Kentucky basketball and Minnesota hockey are not on the same level because Minnesota produces more hockey talent than Kentucky does basketball talent. I don't think he was trying to say that Kentuckians don't care about basketball as much as Minnesotan's do about hockey.

You're willing to give Tubby more rope than I do. I think he takes more responsibility for a number of players leaving. If it was one, I grant it, but Tubby has had a handful of players leave. As for injuries, I don't hold that over Tubby.

Where I get most frustrated with Tubby is in an offensive scheme that tends to stagnate and have no flow in crucial points of the game. So far, this years team has not had major lulls, but it still pops itself up at times and I can see it could be an issue when we get into B1G season. The offensive scheme is all on Tubby and he has struggled to make adjustments in-game during his tenure at MN. I doubt that those issues will change much because those are just areas where Tubby struggles. Where Tubby makes up for his offensive flaws is in being a superior defensive coach.

To point regarding this thread: Tubby will have to show more than 2 months of a season for me to agree that this program is in solid shape. Give me three years of landing in the top 5 of the B1G and then I'll drink the Kool-aid.
 



Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I'm not trying to change yours, but I'll be a little disappointed if that is where we are seeded. I think with the talent this team has and how well they play together, they should get between a 3-5 seed. Keep in mind Mbakwe hasn't even given us full production yet. This team should only improve as he gets more playing time.

Precisely.

More excuses from doll.
 

wow you are an idiot. i believe this team is pretty good, i dont think we will win the big ten, i will be surprised if we win more than a single tourney game. tinyarch, you are nothing more than a hater. you arent a realist, you arent objective. accidents happen(ie injuries) they cant be controlled. transfers happen all the time because these student athletes are upset about playing time, home sick, dislike teammates, etc every school has them. i have been critical of tubby at times but last year we were looking like pretty good team until mbakwe was hurt. if you thnk a "variable" is a season ending injury you are high.

just say "i hate tubby, i cant stand his style." i can at least respect that, but to constantly pretend like injuries, tranfers, are part of tubbys coaching problems is asinine.

im always a gopher kool aid drinker, thats why i check gopherhole multiple times a day, i love the U

To me, you are the "hater" as your low expectations for the team ("be surprised with more than one tourney win") are not helpful to the advancement of this program. We are in year SIX of Tubby's tenure and to expect him to get to a Sweet 16 by now is certainly not the definition of "hating". Tubby has vastly underachieved expectations to this point (ex not a single season over .500 in the B1G), so it's really not asking much to see something we can really be excited about in year 6. I agree with your points about transfers/injuries to a point, but the other side of the coin is that recruiting should have been better to make up for some of those transfers/injuries. I don't blame Tubby for transfers, as they happen to most programs, but I do put a lot of blame on him for the Spring recruits he has brought in to replace those transfers.

I hope this is the year Tubby gets it going, but if he simply wins one tournament game and then falls backward in the conference standings next year, there is no way that is acceptable.
 

To me, you are the "hater" as your low expectations for the team ("be surprised with more than one tourney win") are not helpful to the advancement of this program. We are in year SIX of Tubby's tenure and to expect him to get to a Sweet 16 by now is certainly not the definition of "hating". Tubby has vastly underachieved expectations to this point (ex not a single season over .500 in the B1G), so it's really not asking much to see something we can really be excited about in year 6. I agree with your points about transfers/injuries to a point, but the other side of the coin is that recruiting should have been better to make up for some of those transfers/injuries. I don't blame Tubby for transfers, as they happen to most programs, but I do put a lot of blame on him for the Spring recruits he has brought in to replace those transfers.

I hope this is the year Tubby gets it going, but if he simply wins one tournament game and then falls backward in the conference standings next year, there is no way that is acceptable.


i guess you can think what you would like, winning a game in the tourney is expected, winning more than that is something i agree dpdoll, icing on the cake. we have had nothing but injuries and legal problems for the last 4-5 yrs so im hoping we can get some consistency. if this was year 6 w/o issues i would have an absolutely different take. but unlike many of you guys that think we should be a national power because tubby has been here for a how many years when we havent been good since 1997, is funny to me. my attitude on the program doesnt help or hurt it, i dont get to see many games after xmas anyways so feel free to bust my balls
 


Not sure where he's from but spends a lot of time as a student sitting in a middle school computer lab in a twin cities suburb is my guess.

This coming from a person named Xman...
 

Tubby's an outstanding coach, that's not in debate, even the Kentucky loons admit that much. His offense only looks stagnant when he hasn't had a PG. It looked just fine with Nolen & has looked just fine since Dre started to figure out how to play at this level. It's his recruiting, or lack of it that have been the hot button issue for him. Tubby recruits to his system, has certain types of players he likes & likes to develop the players/team over the course of 3-4 years. That formula served him very well at every stop except Kentucky where they want one-&-done lottery pick type players & that's just not Tubby's game. For better or worse he hates the AAU circuit & kissing AAU coach ass. He prefers to find kids from solid families & establish relationships with the parents, not the coaches.

The people who never wanted Tubby hired & who's agenda is to get him fired (there are a lot of them) will throw out blanket statements like "He's never taken us past the first round" because it helps dumb down the argument & frame the argument in a certain light. i.e. No reasonable person without an axe to grind could have expected success the first two years. It's like saying Jerry Kill stinks because look at our results since he came here 9-12. It just doesn't tell the whole story. When you look at Tubby's results by season it's much easier to see where the program actually stands.

2007-2008: He turned water into wine & got that rag-tag group of Monson ballers to the NCAA's. I've yet to hear anyone nit-pick the job he did here.

2008-2009: See previous year. Even his harshest critics admit these first two years were impressive.

2009-2010: This year we were more talented but ducked out in the first round of the NCAA's. He took some heat for that & rightfully so imo. If his first two seasons were A's, this season was a C+/B-. Not up to expectations, but not horrible on it's own merits.

2010-2011: This was the year he'd been positioning us to be really good & we were! Ranked #15 in the nation, we'd just beaten UNC, WVU & #1 Purdue. We had a Sr PG who was playing at all All-B1G level & Mbakwe crushing it up front and then the wheels fell off the wagon. I don't blame Tubby for Cobbs transferring, that happens on every team. The kid had a baby back home in California & was homesick. Then Devoe Joseph transferred because Tubby wouldn't let him smoke weed. This one's on Tubby since he recruited the kid, he should have known what kind of a kid he was. I don't blame Tubby for his MVP Al Nolen breaking his foot, it was just horse s*it luck, but now our special season went into the crapper & Tubby has to bear the responsibility for it. That said, there was no coach in the country who could have salvaged that season, just couldn't be done. It sucked. How to grade this season??? An 'A' until Devoe Joseph transferred, then a 'B' for a week till Nolen got hurt, then a D- after that for holding the team together?

2011-2012: This was supposed to be the rebuilding year that followed our special season that never happened. Teams have rebuilding years, it's part of the game. No one except the haters expected much last year. 7 of 10 rotation guys were underclassmen & we didn't know who would play PG? Tubby developed a Freshman PG & the rest of the young players very well, teaching them their roles & positioning us for a bright future. The NIT was the best thing that could have happened to us as they got extra games/practice/bonding time. I'd call it a developmental year & give him a 'B'.

2012-2013: We're back to 2010-2011 territory but I think that team was a little better due to Al Nolen being a Sr vs Dre as a Soph this year. I expect an NCAA bid & a Sweet-16 appearance, maybe more. If we fail to reach the NCAA's (unless it's due to an injury to Dre Hollins) I'll join the "Fire Tubby" crowd. An appearance w/ no wins & he's on the hot-seat next year. An appearance & 1 win will be disappointing but not grounds for firing imo. Grade TBD.
 

Tubby's an outstanding coach, that's not in debate, even the Kentucky loons admit that much. His offense only looks stagnant when he hasn't had a PG. It looked just fine with Nolen & has looked just fine since Dre started to figure out how to play at this level. It's his recruiting, or lack of it that have been the hot button issue for him. Tubby recruits to his system, has certain types of players he likes & likes to develop the players/team over the course of 3-4 years. That formula served him very well at every stop except Kentucky where they want one-&-done lottery pick type players & that's just not Tubby's game. For better or worse he hates the AAU circuit & kissing AAU coach ass. He prefers to find kids from solid families & establish relationships with the parents, not the coaches.

The people who never wanted Tubby hired & who's agenda is to get him fired (there are a lot of them) will throw out blanket statements like "He's never taken us past the first round" because it helps dumb down the argument & frame the argument in a certain light. i.e. No reasonable person without an axe to grind could have expected success the first two years. It's like saying Jerry Kill stinks because look at our results since he came here 9-12. It just doesn't tell the whole story. When you look at Tubby's results by season it's much easier to see where the program actually stands.

2007-2008: He turned water into wine & got that rag-tag group of Monson ballers to the NCAA's. I've yet to hear anyone nit-pick the job he did here.

2008-2009: See previous year. Even his harshest critics admit these first two years were impressive.

2009-2010: This year we were more talented but ducked out in the first round of the NCAA's. He took some heat for that & rightfully so imo. If his first two seasons were A's, this season was a C+/B-. Not up to expectations, but not horrible on it's own merits.

2010-2011: This was the year he'd been positioning us to be really good & we were! Ranked #15 in the nation, we'd just beaten UNC, WVU & #1 Purdue. We had a Sr PG who was playing at all All-B1G level & Mbakwe crushing it up front and then the wheels fell off the wagon. I don't blame Tubby for Cobbs transferring, that happens on every team. The kid had a baby back home in California & was homesick. Then Devoe Joseph transferred because Tubby wouldn't let him smoke weed. This one's on Tubby since he recruited the kid, he should have known what kind of a kid he was. I don't blame Tubby for his MVP Al Nolen breaking his foot, it was just horse s*it luck, but now our special season went into the crapper & Tubby has to bear the responsibility for it. That said, there was no coach in the country who could have salvaged that season, just couldn't be done. It sucked. How to grade this season??? An 'A' until Devoe Joseph transferred, then a 'B' for a week till Nolen got hurt, then a D- after that for holding the team together?

2011-2012: This was supposed to be the rebuilding year that followed our special season that never happened. Teams have rebuilding years, it's part of the game. No one except the haters expected much last year. 7 of 10 rotation guys were underclassmen & we didn't know who would play PG? Tubby developed a Freshman PG & the rest of the young players very well, teaching them their roles & positioning us for a bright future. The NIT was the best thing that could have happened to us as they got extra games/practice/bonding time. I'd call it a developmental year & give him a 'B'.

2012-2013: We're back to 2010-2011 territory but I think that team was a little better due to Al Nolen being a Sr vs Dre as a Soph this year. I expect an NCAA bid & a Sweet-16 appearance, maybe more. If we fail to reach the NCAA's (unless it's due to an injury to Dre Hollins) I'll join the "Fire Tubby" crowd. An appearance w/ no wins & he's on the hot-seat next year. An appearance & 1 win will be disappointing but not grounds for firing imo. Grade TBD.

Excellent review and well argued. Certainly a quality point guard is essential (and required for a deep run into the NCAA tournament). I can accept this viewpoint with some reservations regarding ball movement in the offensive half-court sets. In closer games (think Memphis and Stanford) there was still a tendency in crucial points of the game for players to stand and watch the ball handler rather than read the defense and make a cut or set a pick away from the ball. Those tendenciess are not caused by having an experienced point guard or not having one...except that a quality PG would likely tear into his teammates during a timeout or in practice to keep them from watching the paint dry. Also, Tubby is responsible for making in-game adjustments to take advantage of the oppositions weakness. Often Tubby just sticks to a tried and, what he deems, true method that opposing coaches have simply shut down. I think you best nail Tubby's personality when you describe his aversion to the AAU circuit and thus his struggle to adapt to new approaches. For better or worse he sticks to his methods, which are the equivalent of someone who writes his essay with a paper and pencil rather than using a word processor. He gets it done, but it's not nearly as efficient and when there is a problem with the essay the revision is much harder to fix.

Overall, however, I can accept your perspective. Well done.
 

Great, now that you know that you have been nothing but a .... You have accepted our points that are summerized in the post before yours. How are these points different that what others have been saying in over 100 posts? Next time wait until Gophers lose a few games before coming here and to make a fool of yourself.
Go Gophers
 

Great, now that you know that you have been nothing but a .... You have accepted our points that are summerized in the post before yours. How are these points different that what others have been saying in over 100 posts? Next time wait until Gophers lose a few games before coming here and to make a fool of yourself.
Go Gophers

First Costa wrote something that didn't smell completely of Kool-aid like much of the posters who tend to pull down Tubby's pants and give him a big slurpy kiss on his back side. Note that I don't agree with him on everything, but his post shows an intelligent and cogent thought process regarding his views. I respect his position, even if I disagree with some parts of it.

What most of you folks wrote had little to no thought behind it other than emotions. Emotionally charged rhetoric won't win you any arguments. Costa laid out his position in a thoughtful manner and I can accept how he is viewing the situation. I give him a nod of respect. If others had actually tried his approach I would have given you a nod of respect as well. But, instead you took the tactic of name calling. That approach only makes your argument weaker.
 

First Costa wrote something that didn't smell completely of Kool-aid like much of the posters who tend to pull down Tubby's pants and give him a big slurpy kiss on his back side. Note that I don't agree with him on everything, but his post shows an intelligent and cogent thought process regarding his views. I respect his position, even if I disagree with some parts of it.

What most of you folks wrote had little to no thought behind it other than emotions. Emotionally charged rhetoric won't win you any arguments. Costa laid out his position in a thoughtful manner and I can accept how he is viewing the situation. I give him a nod of respect. If others had actually tried his approach I would have given you a nod of respect as well. But, instead you took the tactic of name calling. That approach only makes your argument weaker.

You really are very funny. Your arguments have not facts. They are completely emotional. You just hate the guy, that's it. There are not many people in this world who say Tubby cannot coach. You keep insisting that you are and right he is an average coach. You tell me who is emotional here. Please tell the truth and tell us that you are not older that 13 because your thought process is not any older than that. I am not name-calling. I am stating the facts based on the quality of your posts. Most people have let it go. Even Gopher Lady doesn't dislike Tubby as much as she used to. Join the rest of us and support the Gophers or stay unhappy and post crap.

Go Gophers
 

You really are very funny. Your arguments have not facts. They are completely emotional. You just hate the guy, that's it. There are not many people in this world who say Tubby cannot coach. You keep insisting that you are and right he is an average coach. You tell me who is emotional here. Please tell the truth and tell us that you are not older that 13 because your thought process is not any older than that. I am not name-calling. I am stating the facts based on the quality of your posts. Most people have let it go. Even Gopher Lady doesn't dislike Tubby as much as she used to. Join the rest of us and support the Gophers or stay unhappy and post crap.

Go Gophers

First, I never said I hated Tubby. If you read my posts you know I think he's an above average defensive coach. I state that my belief is he's an average to below average offensive coach. My reasons have been that his offensive schemes, over his years with the Gophers, have led to a lot of standing around and have not isolated weaknesses and tendencies of his opponents. A number of games were lost in the last 5 to 8 minutes because his teams stopped running a functional offense. You cannot blame all of that on the point guard. Tubby has to be able to make the adjustments with the personnel he has and develop a functional offense. He did a poor job with that over the past years. That's not being emotional, that's just pointing out the obvious. What I would love to see Tubby do is to hire an assistant who is excellent at developing offensive schemes and who can help him make the offensive adjustments in games. He needs someone to help him. Defensively, I'll give him serious props. It's his defenses that have kept the Gophers from being the absolute bottom dwellers of the conference when he had defections and injuries to his teams. But...this team would be even better if there was a really solid offensive-minded coach helping Tubby out. The question is...will Tubby ever be willing to do that? Until Tubby can show he is able to make those adjustments against significant opponents (remember we lost by 20 to Duke) I will not give praise where it hasn't been earned. So far the best that Tubby has brought the Gophers to is 6th place in the B1G. (By the way, what is the AVERAGE place for the B1G?) That is not cause for anyone to make a claim that the Bball program is in solid shape. That's not being emotional, it's being obvious. Let's let the season unfold and see if this team can, at minimum, make it to 5th place in the B1G before we imagine the program to be in solid shape...shall we?!

What amazes me is that people actually think being critical equals lack of support for the Gophers. It's OKAY to be critical and still support a program. We don't all have to admire the Kings clothes even if he's wearing no clothes at all. It's not wrong for someone to state "The King has no clothes."

As for the comments about my age, grow up already. If you wish to talk about basketball X's and O's with me, I'd gladly school you to help you watch a game with some intelligence.
 

I anticipate that Minnesota will get a seed somewhere in the 6-8 range, and meet a team in the 9-11 range very similar to the Xavier squad from a couple seasons ago, except this time we'll win. We'll then play a 1-3 seed in the 2nd round, give them a valiant effort, but ultimately lose going away. And I'm not going to cry or whine or complain, because I'll recognize it for the very good season it is, certainly by Minnesota standards.

Wow, that would be depressing. Not clear on the Minnesota standards statement. Cases in point, Wisconsin (no NCAA appearances ever until Stu Jackson), Butler, UConn (pre-Calhoun), Utah (pre-Majerus), Gonzaga (pre-Few). Basketball isn't like football in terms of the number of players required to turn a program around
 

False. Knowledge of history and probabilities? Yes.


Four seniors (two of whom would ever see the floor if Tubby played a 7-8 man rotation like everyone else) is now "lots"? Nxet.



Liar. I said no such thing. Literally any Division I-A team who is postseason eligible "can" win 2 Tournament wins, but how many should "expect" to? Maybe 25-30 in any given year? Given precedent, Minnesota should not "expect" to go to the Sweet 16. How often does it happen where a team goes from a handful of Tournament appearances in school history to suddenly "expecting" to go to the Sweet 16? For those of us who live in reality, we see that successful teams without a history of success often build momentum over a period of years, maybe just being happy to break in to the tournament for 1-3 years, building on that success and eventually breaking through to get to the second weekend and occasionally go on title runs. Teams can and do go on unexpected Sweet 16 runs, but the word "unexpected" is literally in the description. Any reasonable Gophers fan would be very pleased with a Sweet 16 run this season (given that we have THREE in our ENTIRE HISTORY), but ZTA insists that he "expects" this team to do it. "Expects" or what? If ZTA were the AD (God forbid), what would failure to meet his "expectations" mean for Tubby? Sweet 16 or bust? Good luck with any potential coaches taking Minnesota seriously if Tubby gets fired for going to the 2nd round.

Cool, dpdoll picking fights again using his redneck style of proving his intelligence!!! Past success is highly correlated to future success in a sport where you need one game changer or a upperclass dominated team. LOL.
 

Cool, dpdoll picking fights again using his redneck style of proving his intelligence!!! Past success is highly correlated to future success in a sport where you need one game changer or a upperclass dominated team. LOL.

dpdoll is always correct.

Except in this case where he makes excuse after excuse and has absoutley NO confidence in the coach or team to win 2 ncaa games.
 

First, I never said I hated Tubby. If you read my posts you know I think he's an above average defensive coach. I state that my belief is he's an average to below average offensive coach. My reasons have been that his offensive schemes, over his years with the Gophers, have led to a lot of standing around and have not isolated weaknesses and tendencies of his opponents. A number of games were lost in the last 5 to 8 minutes because his teams stopped running a functional offense. You cannot blame all of that on the point guard. Tubby has to be able to make the adjustments with the personnel he has and develop a functional offense. He did a poor job with that over the past years. That's not being emotional, that's just pointing out the obvious. What I would love to see Tubby do is to hire an assistant who is excellent at developing offensive schemes and who can help him make the offensive adjustments in games. He needs someone to help him. Defensively, I'll give him serious props. It's his defenses that have kept the Gophers from being the absolute bottom dwellers of the conference when he had defections and injuries to his teams. But...this team would be even better if there was a really solid offensive-minded coach helping Tubby out. The question is...will Tubby ever be willing to do that? Until Tubby can show he is able to make those adjustments against significant opponents (remember we lost by 20 to Duke) I will not give praise where it hasn't been earned. So far the best that Tubby has brought the Gophers to is 6th place in the B1G. (By the way, what is the AVERAGE place for the B1G?) That is not cause for anyone to make a claim that the Bball program is in solid shape. That's not being emotional, it's being obvious. Let's let the season unfold and see if this team can, at minimum, make it to 5th place in the B1G before we imagine the program to be in solid shape...shall we?!

What amazes me is that people actually think being critical equals lack of support for the Gophers. It's OKAY to be critical and still support a program. We don't all have to admire the Kings clothes even if he's wearing no clothes at all. It's not wrong for someone to state "The King has no clothes."

As for the comments about my age, grow up already. If you wish to talk about basketball X's and O's with me, I'd gladly school you to help you watch a game with some intelligence.

Not to beat a dead horse but I think this is an important point. Considering much of this discussion has been based upon watching basketball intelligently, I think is is worth noting that you would be foolish to say the gophers look anything like teams of the past five seasons at this point into the schedule.

I went to every game for the past three seasons, and the gophers offense and defense has never looked better in the non conference. Their defensive and offensive intelligence is visibly improved, and it is readily apparent that these guys know how to play well with each other on offense. From my memories of non conference games last year and before, though we may have beat teams by 10-20 points, they typically were close until the final 5-10 minutes. Also, the offense was frustratingly stagnant against easy competition. However, this year, we are beatin teams into submission through suffocatin defense and...efficiency on offense. Though it is not top notch yet, you would need to be blind not to be able to see the improvement in ball movement and fluidity this season.

Now this is all reason for optimism. But we need to prove we can do this in the big ten, where men rise to the physical style of play, or boys shrink from the challenge. I hope we act like men this season, and I have been given no reason so far to think otherwise. So until I see signs of decline in the Big Ten, I have extremely high expectations for this club
 

Not to beat a dead horse but I think this is an important point. Considering much of this discussion has been based upon watching basketball intelligently, I think is is worth noting that you would be foolish to say the gophers look anything like teams of the past five seasons at this point into the schedule.

I went to every game for the past three seasons, and the gophers offense and defense has never looked better in the non conference. Their defensive and offensive intelligence is visibly improved, and it is readily apparent that these guys know how to play well with each other on offense. From my memories of non conference games last year and before, though we may have beat teams by 10-20 points, they typically were close until the final 5-10 minutes. Also, the offense was frustratingly stagnant against easy competition. However, this year, we are beatin teams into submission through suffocatin defense and...efficiency on offense. Though it is not top notch yet, you would need to be blind not to be able to see the improvement in ball movement and fluidity this season.

Now this is all reason for optimism. But we need to prove we can do this in the big ten, where men rise to the physical style of play, or boys shrink from the challenge. I hope we act like men this season, and I have been given no reason so far to think otherwise. So until I see signs of decline in the Big Ten, I have extremely high expectations for this club

Agreed.

However, the past does keep me from jumping on the bandwagon and stating that this "Bball program is in solid shape". We have to have a bigger sample size than this years team during the months of November and December for me to agree with the assertion of this thread.
 

Good lord man or boy or whatever you are. Give it a rest. Your arguments are emotional and unintelligent. Stop complimenting yourself. If you had the maturity to evaluate the Gophers for the last few years, you would have realized that many unexpected things happened that kept them away from being good in B1G. It happened to the other teams too, Purdue went down when RH was hurt. Is Painter a bad coach, no. MSU went down when JL went down is IZZO a bad coach, heck no. UW went down when JL was hurt, is Bo Ryan a bad coach, no (maybe). OSU went down when ET was hurt, is Matta a bad coah, no.

Stop being a kid and grow up. Past is past. Support this team and stop trying to prove a point that does not exist. Yes, Gophers lost many games during the last few minutes of the games. You can't blame a coach for this 100%. If Uk din't have Jones, Miller, and Lamb last year, there was no way they could have won the NC. Players need to develope. This year Gophers are developed.

Go Gophers
 




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