Bball program is in solid shape

[fan of Ray Williams]

Kentucky, an intelligent basketball community? D'ohkay.

Gosh that's funny......I'm sorry, but I love humor like that.

 

[lakesgopher]

I love it when people blame their situation in life on others...

Who recruited those guys, Lakes? Who was the recruiter that had no backup when a kid gets hurt? What is the ONE constant you can find over the past 6 years of mediocrity, Lakes? Come on, Lakes, you can say it... T-U-B-B-Y S-M-I-T-H ... Good for you, I knew you could say it!

Also, thanks for admitting you are indeed a Kool-aid drinker. However, it doesn't take a great bball mind to recognize the constant is Tubby Smith. It only requires one to be realistic and have simple observation skills rather than immerse oneself in a fantasy land of make believe. Stop drinking the Kool-Aid and observe. You'll come to enjoy the actual good times (the present Gophers in December) and accept the bad times (the past 6 years) for what they truly are.

wow you are an idiot. i believe this team is pretty good, i dont think we will win the big ten, i will be surprised if we win more than a single tourney game. tinyarch, you are nothing more than a hater. you arent a realist, you arent objective. accidents happen(ie injuries) they cant be controlled. transfers happen all the time because these student athletes are upset about playing time, home sick, dislike teammates, etc every school has them. i have been critical of tubby at times but last year we were looking like pretty good team until mbakwe was hurt. if you thnk a "variable" is a season ending injury you are high.

just say "i hate tubby, i cant stand his style." i can at least respect that, but to constantly pretend like injuries, tranfers, are part of tubbys coaching problems is asinine.

im always a gopher kool aid drinker, thats why i check gopherhole multiple times a day, i love the U

 

[GophersOnTheRise]

dpodoll68, I may have read your posts incorrectly, so I want to ask you to clarify. Are you concluding THIS YEAR'S team's expectations based on the success of PAST year's teams that were composed of entirely different players and coaches?

 

[tinyarch]

Kentucky, an intelligent basketball community? D'ohkay.

If you think people in Kentucky don't have a high basketball IQ then you also must think that people in Minnesota don't have a high hockey IQ.

Here, let me repeat your words from a hockey perspective.

"Minnesota, an intelligent hockey community? D'ohkay."

The only person sounding like a hillbilly is you, jmag.

 

[lakesgopher]

If you think people in Kentucky don't have a high basketball IQ then you also must think that people in Minnesota don't have a high hockey IQ.

Here, let me repeat your words from a hockey perspective.

"Minnesota, an intelligent hockey community? D'ohkay."

The only person sounding like a hillbilly is you, jmag.

are you saying kentucky is the "state of basketball?" cause minnesota is the "state of hockey" i dont understand your comparison, it doesnt make sense, no where have i heard kentucky being the mecca of high school basketball

 

[The-Real-Truth]

At some point you will be forced to accept that the call for Tubby's removal was NOT a race issue, but instead an intelligent basketball community losing its patience with poor coaching.

I'm not a fan of Calipari either. He's a snakeoil salesman with a track record of NCAA violations following him everywhere he's gone.

In the case of Minnesota, the one constant you can find over the past 6 years of placing 6th or lower in the B1G is Tubby Smith. All the other issues are variables. Smith remains consistently mediocre. THAT is the reason why he was unceremoniously pushed out of Kentucky, not because of the pigment of his skin. If it was the latter, then you should see an all white squad at Kentucky like in the days of Adolph Rupp, but you don't see that today.

I hold out hope for Tubby and his offensive schemes. This year has, so far, been better than the past few years regarding ball movement. Another thread mentioned the loss of RSIII as a possible reason for better ball movement. I can concur with that to some degree, but RSIII wasn't the only reason for inefficient offense. Scoggins has a good article about ball movement in today's Strib. Check it out...



So, it looks like I'm not the only one who see's the obvious in Tubby's coaching style.

Now...you can go back to drinking the Kool-aid and fantasizing about how solid the program is...

How old are you? 13? Even your beloved coach Cal said last week it would been very hard to repeat what Tubby did if he had replace him right away. Even those intelligent basketball fans in UK still admit what a great coach Tubby is. I am not sure where you get these facts? Maybe you should ask your mom to stop letting you use the internet. This is becoming comical.

Go Gophers

 

[tinyarch]

wow you are an idiot. i believe this team is pretty good, i dont think we will win the big ten, i will be surprised if we win more than a single tourney game. tinyarch, you are nothing more than a hater. you arent a realist, you arent objective. accidents happen(ie injuries) they cant be controlled. transfers happen all the time because these student athletes are upset about playing time, home sick, dislike teammates, etc every school has them. i have been critical of tubby at times but last year we were looking like pretty good team until mbakwe was hurt. if you thnk a "variable" is a season ending injury you are high.

just say "i hate tubby, i cant stand his style." i can at least respect that, but to constantly pretend like injuries, tranfers, are part of tubbys coaching problems is asinine.

im always a gopher kool aid drinker, thats why i check gopherhole multiple times a day, i love the U

Love your first statement. It makes the rest of your commentary so much more persuasive.

This team is currently playing pretty good ball. If it weren't then they wouldn't be ranked #14 in the nation. However, it's just early December and the only top ten team we've played beat us by nearly 20 points.

You keep making excuses for mediocrity. Will there be a time when you stop making excuses for Tubby?

If you've read my posts you will know that I have repeatedly said that I think Tubby is an above average defensive coach and a below average offensive coach. That equals out to mediocrity. I have very clearly stated that I can't stand his offensive system and inability to isolate weaknesses in the offensive set. Even with injuries and players leaving, a coach can develop an offense around what he has. Tubby consistently failed to do that. I don't hate Tubby as a person. I just recognize his mediocrity as a coach on the offensive end. Tubby is not going to change after all these years. Tubby has one national championship to his name as a coach. Those players were exclusively recruited by Rick Pitino, not Tubby. In the years that Tubby coached at Kentucky, those teams were mediocre by Kentucky standards. In the years that Tubby has coached at Minnesota his teams have been mediocre to bad by B1G standards. Once again...what is the ONE constant in everything we've been discussing? It is not an issue of hating a personality, it's purely being honest with the data. You can make excuses if you wish. I refuse to do that, but will instead let the data speak for itself.

If you think I'm an idiot for letting the numbers speak for themselves, then so be it.

 

[tinyarch]

How old are you? 13? Even your beloved coach Cal said last week it would been very hard to repeat what Tubby did if he had replace him right away. Even those intelligent basketball fans in UK still admit what a great coach Tubby is. I am not sure where you get these facts? Maybe you should ask your mom to stop letting you use the internet. This is becoming comical.

Go Gophers

Did you read my comments about Calipari? Beloved coach? Hardly.

However, I'd love to read the comments you reference so please provide a link for me.

I know I'm messing with your Kool-aid hangover. Perhaps you should wish you were 13 so you didn't get messed up with the illicit drugs you're taking in your Kool-aid!

 

[tinyarch]

are you saying kentucky is the "state of basketball?" cause minnesota is the "state of hockey" i dont understand your comparison, it doesnt make sense, no where have i heard kentucky being the mecca of high school basketball

Come out of your cave...

 

[dpodoll68]

dpodoll68, I may have read your posts incorrectly, so I want to ask you to clarify. Are you concluding THIS YEAR'S team's expectations based on the success of PAST year's teams that were composed of entirely different players and coaches?

Not exclusively, no. Partially, yes. This team, in its current iteration, has never existed before. There is no way to objectively predict how the team will finish other than the data presently available to us, which is the past performance of the school and the coach. If we go by the average past performance of the school, this team would finish out of the Tournament. If we go by the average past performance of the coach, this team would make the Sweet 16 or Elite 8. If we average those out, that equals Tournament appearance. If we are willing to be optimistic and concede that the talent on this team is greater than that of an average Minnesota squad historically, let's give them an extra win. To me, that equals that expectations should be to make the Tournament and to win one game. Anything above that is gravy. This really isn't rocket science.

 

[jmag21]

If you think people in Kentucky don't have a high basketball IQ then you also must think that people in Minnesota don't have a high hockey IQ.

Here, let me repeat your words from a hockey perspective.

"Minnesota, an intelligent hockey community? D'ohkay."

The only person sounding like a hillbilly is you, jmag.

Ooh, a bit tetchy, are we? Here's a thought experiment for you. I'd like you to compare the average reaction on Cat's Pause after a Wildcat loss, to your conception of how an intelligent fanbase would react. I've been on that forum occasionally, and I must say, I find it singularly lacking in basketball insight, critical analysis of the x's and o's, or anything besides unintelligible assertions of pure rage, to convince me that Kentucky was noted for exceptional basketball minds. Now, it may not fully represent Kentucky fans as a whole, but I'd venture to say that it represents the most passionate Wildcat fans rather well. If you wish to perform a similar experiment after a Gopher hockey loss either on this forum or GPL, I think you'd find the angst is similar, but the analysis and insight is of much higher quality. Therefore, Kentucky's fans, though well blessed with a dynamite gangster program (whose victories during the Calipari years are destined to be voided), are not, in my opinion, blessed with a high basketball IQ. An uncharitable person would say your opinions about the current state of the Gopher program prove my case, but as I'm neither uncharitable, nor a believer in the argumentum ad homeniem
, I'll leave that argument for other less generous souls.

 

[lakesgopher]

Come out of your cave...

please show me a link that backs up kentucky high school basketball being the best in the nation and then i will come out of my cave

 

[GophersOnTheRise]

Not exclusively, no. Partially, yes. This team, in its current iteration, has never existed before. There is no way to objectively predict how the team will finish other than the data presently available to us, which is the past performance of the school and the coach. If we go by the average past performance of the school, this team would finish out of the Tournament. If we go by the average past performance of the coach, this team would make the Sweet 16 or Elite 8. If we average those out, that equals Tournament appearance. If we are willing to be optimistic and concede that the talent on this team is greater than that of an average Minnesota squad historically, let's give them an extra win. To me, that equals that expectations should be to make the Tournament and to win one game. Anything above that is gravy. This really isn't rocket science.

I just don't understand why teams from a long time ago composed of entirely different players and coaches would have any sort of effect on this current team. Doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[tinyarch]

Not exclusively, no. Partially, yes. This team, in its current iteration, has never existed before. There is no way to objectively predict how the team will finish other than the data presently available to us, which is the past performance of the school and the coach. If we go by the average past performance of the school, this team would finish out of the Tournament. If we go by the average past performance of the coach, this team would make the Sweet 16 or Elite 8. If we average those out, that equals Tournament appearance. If we are willing to be optimistic and concede that the talent on this team is greater than that of an average Minnesota squad historically, let's give them an extra win. To me, that equals that expectations should be to make the Tournament and to win one game. Anything above that is gravy. This really isn't rocket science.

Very good post.

 

[lakesgopher]

Very good post.

Link to Kentucky prep hoops being the best in the nation, I can't wait to read it

 

[mnsportsgeek]

I just don't understand why teams from a long time ago composed of entirely different players and coaches would have any sort of effect on this current team. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Twins vs. Yankees. It doesn't need to make sense. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.

 

[tinyarch]

Ooh, a bit tetchy, are we? Here's a thought experiment for you. I'd like you to compare the average reaction on Cat's Pause after a Wildcat loss, to your conception of how an intelligent fanbase would react. I've been on that forum occasionally, and I must say, I find it singularly lacking in basketball insight, critical analysis of the x's and o's, or anything besides unintelligible assertions of pure rage, to convince me that Kentucky was noted for exceptional basketball minds. Now, it may not fully represent Kentucky fans as a whole, but I'd venture to say that it represents the most passionate Wildcat fans rather well. If you wish to perform a similar experiment after a Gopher hockey loss either on this forum or GPL, I think you'd find the angst is similar, but the analysis and insight is of much higher quality. Therefore, Kentucky's fans, though well blessed with a dynamite gangster program (whose victories during the Calipari years are destined to be voided), are not, in my opinion, blessed with a high basketball IQ. An uncharitable person would say your opinions about the current state of the Gopher program prove my case, but as I'm neither uncharitable, nor a believer in the argumentum ad homeniem
, I'll leave that argument for other less generous souls.

Your sample size for your argument is a Kentucky basketball forum. In your words...D'ohkay.

 

[tinyarch]

please show me a link that backs up kentucky high school basketball being the best in the nation and then i will come out of my cave

I did not say that Kentucky high school basketball was the best in the nation. Those are your words, not mine.

My reference to the basketball intelligence of Kentucky fan comes from thisarticle.

That kind of basketball following makes Kentucky the basketball equivalent to Minnesota and its hockey community.

 

[lakesgopher]

nevermind

 

[notagopherfan]

U compared it to Minnesota high school hockey, I asked you for a link regarding the comparison an u said to get out of my cave

kentucky fans know basketball because like hockey in minnesota, just about every kid plays basketball from elementary to high school. We don't have a pro football team, a good college football team or an nba team. Every TV and radio in town will be on the UK basketball game. It's like that in any small town in Kentucky. We live and breathe Kentucky basketball.

Tubby won a lot of games for UK basketball, he only got mediocre his last 2 years. He went undefeated in the SEC which is pretty hard to do in any conference. He won a national championship with a team Rick Pitino wouldn't have got to a sweet 16 with. So people in Kentucky don't hate Tubby nor do they worship Cal we just love basketball. This years Minnesota team is a good one so you guys should enjoy it instead of nit picking at everything you possibly can.

 

[lakesgopher]

kentucky fans know basketball because like hockey in minnesota, just about every kid plays basketball from elementary to high school. We don't have a pro football team, a good college football team or an nba team. Every TV and radio in town will be on the UK basketball game. It's like that in any small town in Kentucky. We live and breathe Kentucky basketball.

Tubby won a lot of games for UK basketball, he only got mediocre his last 2 years. He went undefeated in the SEC which is pretty hard to do in any conference. He won a national championship with a team Rick Pitino wouldn't have got to a sweet 16 with. So people in Kentucky don't hate Tubby nor do they worship Cal we just love basketball. This years Minnesota team is a good one so you guys should enjoy it instead of nit picking at everything you possibly can.

I ignored him so I apologize for nit picking, it was childish and he sucked me in with his stupid comparisons. I know Kentucky fans are great, I think you missed my point because it was poorly stated. I'm done with the conversation go gophers

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Not exclusively, no. Partially, yes. This team, in its current iteration, has never existed before. There is no way to objectively predict how the team will finish other than the data presently available to us, which is the past performance of the school and the coach. If we go by the average past performance of the school, this team would finish out of the Tournament. If we go by the average past performance of the coach, this team would make the Sweet 16 or Elite 8. If we average those out, that equals Tournament appearance. If we are willing to be optimistic and concede that the talent on this team is greater than that of an average Minnesota squad historically, let's give them an extra win. To me, that equals that expectations should be to make the Tournament and to win one game. Anything above that is gravy. This really isn't rocket science.

I'm with you on that expectation, so long as it is not one of those extra play in games where two 10 seeds play each other. A tournament win would be a step in the right direction both from where we were last year and would be Tubby's best season at Minnesota. I think that would be a nice season to build on going forwards.

 

[dpodoll68]

I'm with you on that expectation, so long as it is not one of those extra play in games where two 10 seeds play each other. A tournament win would be a step in the right direction both from where we were last year and would be Tubby's best season at Minnesota. I think that would be a nice season to build on going forwards.

I anticipate that Minnesota will get a seed somewhere in the 6-8 range, and meet a team in the 9-11 range very similar to the Xavier squad from a couple seasons ago, except this time we'll win. We'll then play a 1-3 seed in the 2nd round, give them a valiant effort, but ultimately lose going away. And I'm not going to cry or whine or complain, because I'll recognize it for the very good season it is, certainly by Minnesota standards.

 

[BarnBurner]

I just don't understand why teams from a long time ago composed of entirely different players and coaches would have any sort of effect on this current team. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Doesnt make any sense to dp either. Just trying to get out of the box he created for himself.

Oh, and lowering the expectations as he goes......

 

[Cayman]

I love it when people blame their situation in life on others...

Who recruited those guys, Lakes? Who was the recruiter that had no backup when a kid gets hurt? What is the ONE constant you can find over the past 6 years of mediocrity, Lakes? Come on, Lakes, you can say it... T-U-B-B-Y S-M-I-T-H ... Good for you, I knew you could say it!

Also, thanks for admitting you are indeed a Kool-aid drinker. However, it doesn't take a great bball mind to recognize the constant is Tubby Smith. It only requires one to be realistic and have simple observation skills rather than immerse oneself in a fantasy land of make believe. Stop drinking the Kool-Aid and observe. You'll come to enjoy the actual good times (the present Gophers in December) and accept the bad times (the past 6 years) for what they truly are.

At the end of the 2009-10 season, we had three viable point guard options on the roster: Al Nolen, Devoe Joseph, and Justin Cobbs, who would have been a senior, a junior, and a sophomore respectively in the 2010-11 season, certainly enough depth at the position. Justin Cobbs transferred shortly after the season ended, leaving us to pick up Maverick Ahanmisi in May. We still had Nolen and Joseph going into that season, however, and Tubby had recruited Joseph as a viable back-up for Nolen, and Jospeh had come on very strong at the end of the 2009-10 season. Nolen had a back-up until about a week before his season ending foot injury. After Cobbs' offseason transfer and then losing both Nolen and Joseph within the span of a week in mid-January, we were left with a freshman spring recruit in Maverick, and Blake Hoffarber. We lost Justin Cobbs, Devoe Joseph, Al Nolen, Mo Walker, and Paul Carter within the span of less than a year. We had 8 scholarship players at the end of that season, two of whom were spring recruits that we acquired in the wake of Carter and Cobbs' transfers. Walk-on Dominique Dawson was getting minutes in games long before they were decided because we were so low on players. I can kind of understand the "Losing one player shouldn't derail a season," argument, but losing 5 players in less than a year, 3 of whom were point guards, arguably the most important position on the court, is far more than what most teams experience. If you're going to say Tubby didn't recruit enough depth, you're basically saying we should have used 4 or 5 scholarships on point guards, just on the off chance that we lose 3 of them in quick succession. We arguably had more point guard depth at the end of 2009-10 than we do now, if you think Devoe Joseph and Justin Cobbs are better than Welch and Mav, we just lost all of our depth.

With regards to the Mbakwe injury last year, are we just supposed to have another senior all-conference forward sitting on the bench to jump in and take Mbakwe's place? It would be nice to have that, but I don't think it's something you can expect out of this program at this stage. You can't just lose a guy who averages 14 points and 10 rebounds a game and expect everything to go on as normal, not to mention he was one of only two seniors on our team last year, and Ralph never exactly seemed a take-charge kind of leader on the court to me, at least not in the way that Mbakwe was/is.

Look at how Wisconsin is doing without Josh Gasser, they're 5-3. I can't really disrespect them for losing at Florida, Creighton is certainly a good team, though past Wisconsin teams might have won that one, but they lost to Virginia at home, lots of posters seemed very confident that Wisconsin would win that game. They struggled against Arkansas as well, but they did pull out the win. They have one of their better players, if not their best player currently, out with an injury, and they aren't doing as well as they have in the past, they look worse than they have in quite awhile. Injuries cause teams to not play as well as they could otherwise, that's not a coach's fault.

In 2010-11 we beat two top ten teams, then we lost Nolen and Joseph, and we lost 10 of our 12 games after Nolen's season ended prematurely. You don't see that as any reason to believe that losing players had a greater effect than Tubby's coaching? Did Tubby just lose all his coaching acumen at the same time that Al Nolen's foot got injured?

I did not say that Kentucky high school basketball was the best in the nation. Those are your words, not mine.

My reference to the basketball intelligence of Kentucky fan comes from thisarticle.

That kind of basketball following makes Kentucky the basketball equivalent to Minnesota and its hockey community.

Part of the reason that Minnesota is referred to as the state of hockey is because Minnesota high schools produce a lot of hockey talent. I think I saw somewhere that more current NHL players played for Minnesota high schools than any other state. I think Indiana would be a better comparison as a "state of basketball" in the same way that Minnesota is the state of hockey, than Kentucky. They have a dominant college program and draw heavily from in-state talent because they simply have so much of it. This doesn't really change whether people in Kentucky know a lot about basketball, just explaining why someone might not see Kentucky and basketball in the same way as they see Minnesota and hockey.



Sorry for the long and rambling post, I just don't like the "Tubby didn't recruit enough depth" argument regarding the reasons for having poor seasons in 2010-11 and 2011-12. Having three point guards at the end of the previous season should be enough, and Trevor Mbakwe is not an easily replaceable player, especially when he alone makes up half of the seniors on your team.

 

[lakesgopher]

At the end of the 2009-10 season, we had three viable point guard options on the roster: Al Nolen, Devoe Joseph, and Justin Cobbs, who would have been a senior, a junior, and a sophomore respectively in the 2010-11 season, certainly enough depth at the position. Justin Cobbs transferred shortly after the season ended, leaving us to pick up Maverick Ahanmisi in May. We still had Nolen and Joseph going into that season, however, and Tubby had recruited Joseph as a viable back-up for Nolen, and Jospeh had come on very strong at the end of the 2009-10 season. Nolen had a back-up until about a week before his season ending foot injury. After Cobbs' offseason transfer and then losing both Nolen and Joseph within the span of a week in mid-January, we were left with a freshman spring recruit in Maverick, and Blake Hoffarber. We lost Justin Cobbs, Devoe Joseph, Al Nolen, Mo Walker, and Paul Carter within the span of less than a year. We had 8 scholarship players at the end of that season, two of whom were spring recruits that we acquired in the wake of Carter and Cobbs' transfers. Walk-on Dominique Dawson was getting minutes in games long before they were decided because we were so low on players. I can kind of understand the "Losing one player shouldn't derail a season," argument, but losing 5 players in less than a year, 3 of whom were point guards, arguably the most important position on the court, is far more than what most teams experience. If you're going to say Tubby didn't recruit enough depth, you're basically saying we should have used 4 or 5 scholarships on point guards, just on the off chance that we lose 3 of them in quick succession. We arguably had more point guard depth at the end of 2009-10 than we do now, if you think Devoe Joseph and Justin Cobbs are better than Welch and Mav, we just lost all of our depth.

With regards to the Mbakwe injury last year, are we just supposed to have another senior all-conference forward sitting on the bench to jump in and take Mbakwe's place? It would be nice to have that, but I don't think it's something you can expect out of this program at this stage. You can't just lose a guy who averages 14 points and 10 rebounds a game and expect everything to go on as normal, not to mention he was one of only two seniors on our team last year, and Ralph never exactly seemed a take-charge kind of leader on the court to me, at least not in the way that Mbakwe was/is.

Look at how Wisconsin is doing without Josh Gasser, they're 5-3. I can't really disrespect them for losing at Florida, Creighton is certainly a good team, though past Wisconsin teams might have won that one, but they lost to Virginia at home, lots of posters seemed very confident that Wisconsin would win that game. They struggled against Arkansas as well, but they did pull out the win. They have one of their better players, if not their best player currently, out with an injury, and they aren't doing as well as they have in the past, they look worse than they have in quite awhile. Injuries cause teams to not play as well as they could otherwise, that's not a coach's fault.

In 2010-11 we beat two top ten teams, then we lost Nolen and Joseph, and we lost 10 of our 12 games after Nolen's season ended prematurely. You don't see that as any reason to believe that losing players had a greater effect than Tubby's coaching? Did Tubby just lose all his coaching acumen at the same time that Al Nolen's foot got injured?

Part of the reason that Minnesota is referred to as the state of hockey is because Minnesota high schools produce a lot of hockey talent. I think I saw somewhere that more current NHL players played for Minnesota high schools than any other state. I think Indiana would be a better comparison as a "state of basketball" in the same way that Minnesota is the state of hockey, than Kentucky. They have a dominant college program and draw heavily from in-state talent because they simply have so much of it. This doesn't really change whether people in Kentucky know a lot about basketball, just explaining why someone might not see Kentucky and basketball in the same way as they see Minnesota and hockey.

Sorry for the long and rambling post, I just don't like the "Tubby didn't recruit enough depth" argument regarding the reasons for having poor seasons in 2010-11 and 2011-12. Having three point guards at the end of the previous season should be enough, and Trevor Mbakwe is not an easily replaceable player, especially when he alone makes up half of the seniors on your team.

I think you won!

 

[GophersOnTheRise]

I anticipate that Minnesota will get a seed somewhere in the 6-8 range, and meet a team in the 9-11 range very similar to the Xavier squad from a couple seasons ago, except this time we'll win. We'll then play a 1-3 seed in the 2nd round, give them a valiant effort, but ultimately lose going away. And I'm not going to cry or whine or complain, because I'll recognize it for the very good season it is, certainly by Minnesota standards.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I'm not trying to change yours, but I'll be a little disappointed if that is where we are seeded. I think with the talent this team has and how well they play together, they should get between a 3-5 seed. Keep in mind Mbakwe hasn't even given us full production yet. This team should only improve as he gets more playing time.

 

[jmag21]

At the end of the 2009-10 season, we had three viable point guard options on the roster: Al Nolen, Devoe Joseph, and Justin Cobbs, who would have been a senior, a junior, and a sophomore respectively in the 2010-11 season, certainly enough depth at the position. Justin Cobbs transferred shortly after the season ended, leaving us to pick up Maverick Ahanmisi in May. We still had Nolen and Joseph going into that season, however, and Tubby had recruited Joseph as a viable back-up for Nolen, and Jospeh had come on very strong at the end of the 2009-10 season. Nolen had a back-up until about a week before his season ending foot injury. After Cobbs' offseason transfer and then losing both Nolen and Joseph within the span of a week in mid-January, we were left with a freshman spring recruit in Maverick, and Blake Hoffarber. We lost Justin Cobbs, Devoe Joseph, Al Nolen, Mo Walker, and Paul Carter within the span of less than a year. We had 8 scholarship players at the end of that season, two of whom were spring recruits that we acquired in the wake of Carter and Cobbs' transfers. Walk-on Dominique Dawson was getting minutes in games long before they were decided because we were so low on players. I can kind of understand the "Losing one player shouldn't derail a season," argument, but losing 5 players in less than a year, 3 of whom were point guards, arguably the most important position on the court, is far more than what most teams experience. If you're going to say Tubby didn't recruit enough depth, you're basically saying we should have used 4 or 5 scholarships on point guards, just on the off chance that we lose 3 of them in quick succession. We arguably had more point guard depth at the end of 2009-10 than we do now, if you think Devoe Joseph and Justin Cobbs are better than Welch and Mav, we just lost all of our depth.

With regards to the Mbakwe injury last year, are we just supposed to have another senior all-conference forward sitting on the bench to jump in and take Mbakwe's place? It would be nice to have that, but I don't think it's something you can expect out of this program at this stage. You can't just lose a guy who averages 14 points and 10 rebounds a game and expect everything to go on as normal, not to mention he was one of only two seniors on our team last year, and Ralph never exactly seemed a take-charge kind of leader on the court to me, at least not in the way that Mbakwe was/is.

Look at how Wisconsin is doing without Josh Gasser, they're 5-3. I can't really disrespect them for losing at Florida, Creighton is certainly a good team, though past Wisconsin teams might have won that one, but they lost to Virginia at home, lots of posters seemed very confident that Wisconsin would win that game. They struggled against Arkansas as well, but they did pull out the win. They have one of their better players, if not their best player currently, out with an injury, and they aren't doing as well as they have in the past, they look worse than they have in quite awhile. Injuries cause teams to not play as well as they could otherwise, that's not a coach's fault.

In 2010-11 we beat two top ten teams, then we lost Nolen and Joseph, and we lost 10 of our 12 games after Nolen's season ended prematurely. You don't see that as any reason to believe that losing players had a greater effect than Tubby's coaching? Did Tubby just lose all his coaching acumen at the same time that Al Nolen's foot got injured?



Part of the reason that Minnesota is referred to as the state of hockey is because Minnesota high schools produce a lot of hockey talent. I think I saw somewhere that more current NHL players played for Minnesota high schools than any other state. I think Indiana would be a better comparison as a "state of basketball" in the same way that Minnesota is the state of hockey, than Kentucky. They have a dominant college program and draw heavily from in-state talent because they simply have so much of it. This doesn't really change whether people in Kentucky know a lot about basketball, just explaining why someone might not see Kentucky and basketball in the same way as they see Minnesota and hockey.



Sorry for the long and rambling post, I just don't like the "Tubby didn't recruit enough depth" argument regarding the reasons for having poor seasons in 2010-11 and 2011-12. Having three point guards at the end of the previous season should be enough, and Trevor Mbakwe is not an easily replaceable player, especially when he alone makes up half of the seniors on your team.

This is what I would have said if I were a better writer, and a less naturally snarky person.

 

[dpodoll68]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I'm not trying to change yours, but I'll be a little disappointed if that is where we are seeded. I think with the talent this team has and how well they play together, they should get between a 3-5 seed. Keep in mind Mbakwe hasn't even given us full production yet. This team should only improve as he gets more playing time.

That's definitely a fair take. I would counter with the thought that teams usually perform best when everyone has consistent, defined roles. When and if Mbakwe is fully integrated back into the roster, that naturally means other players' roles and minutes will diminish. The likelihood is that is a good thing for us, but there is potential for it to backfire, i.e., players stand around and wait for Mbakwe to do something. If the re-integration goes seamlessly, I think a 3 seed is not at all unreasonable. If it doesn't go so smoothly, we might end up being very happy with a 6 seed.

 

[howieramone]

I'm glad to see people coming around. Last year I said over & over while people were screaming for Tubby's head that the team was young still (7 of 10 rotation guys were underclassmen) & our PG still had his training wheels on. I told people to remain patient because Dre Hollins was a special player & this team would mature together & become special. I was also the kook who started the thread here HOPING we'd get an NIT bid instead of an NCAA bid because the young guys could use the extra practice/games as opposed to getting blown out by a #1 seed & going home. I took even further at that time when I suggested that we wouldn't have a significant drop-off after Rodney/Trevor left because our back court would be all upperclassmen + we'd return 3 R-Jr's in the front court + whoever we recruited.

Looking into my crystal ball this year....many fans will think the sky is falling when we stumble early in the B1G schedule. Dre is special but he's just starting his Soph year & not consistent yet, so we're bound to have some frustrating games. I think Dre (the entire team really, but especially Dre) will be playing his best ball come tourney time (just like last year) & I expect a nice run to the Sweet-16 or beyond.

+1