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Gold Vision said:
You can sell Minnesota to Minnesotans. That’s about it. You’re also competing for a much smaller talent pool with every other B1G program for Minnesota recruits. Show me a list of Midwest recruits outside of Minnesota that the Gophers have landed.

You can sell the B1G to the much larger talent pools on the coasts, south and abroad. Some of our best 4 year players have come from the regions you’re talking about.

Jordan Murphy
Nate Mason
Andre Hollins
Ralph Sampson
Austin Hollins
Isaiah Washington
Damian Johnson
Mo Walker
Jamal Mashburn
Lawrence Westbrook
Dupree McBrayer
Devoe Joseph
Marcus Carr

I’m not saying ignore Minnesota, that’s impossible after the head coach hired. Putting all your eggs in the Midwest/Minneaota basket is not sustainable.
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I think that says more about Pitino's ignorance and arrogance early on than the recruits in the Midwest. Wisconsin's recruited the region almost exclusively for the last two decades and we see where it's got them, Iowa had a great regular season with a bunch of Midwest kids and Iowa State's had 7-8 kids from the region play in the NBA in the same time frame that group you listed played for the Gophers.

Pitino didn't recruit the Midwest outside of Minnesota until the last few years and that's reflected in who he offered. 247 has this stuff listed and you'll see the shift away from Northeast offers in the 2020 and 2021 classes as our staff became Midwest heavy with Conroy, Jeter and Lindsted in 2018. The staff took on the very approach I'm talking about by kicking it off with the short lived Tray Jackson from Michigan commitment in 2018 (2019 class), they landed Martice Mitchell (from Illinois) in the 2020 class, Kenny Pohto (from Sweden but HS in Kansas) in 2021 and I think they had high interest from Tamin Lipsey (top recruit from Iowa) and Joe Hurlburt (top 75 recruit from North Dakota) in the 2022 class but unfortunately for them, they ran out of time.

If you can supplement the roster with pre-injury Eric Currys from SEC/Big 12 country (who deserves be on that list btw) then awesome but expecting to do that every year when you're building is how you end up in a red suit in New Mexico. Your core group in the short term is going to come locally and regionally. I've been preaching this for weeks that my whole thought process is that we need to establish regional pipelines then build out nationally. That's how all programs with sustainable success have been built and I think that's what we're going to have from the start with Ben. Whether we expand beyond a regional program will be determined by how they develop and the product they put on the court.
 




GopherNuts said:
I think that says more about Pitino's ignorance and arrogance early on than the recruits in the Midwest. Wisconsin's recruited the region almost exclusively for the last two decades and we see where it's got them, Iowa had a great regular season with a bunch of Midwest kids and Iowa State's had 7-8 kids from the region play in the NBA in the same time frame that group you listed played for the Gophers.

Pitino didn't recruit the Midwest outside of Minnesota until the last few years and that's reflected in who he offered. 247 has this stuff listed and you'll see the shift away from Northeast offers in the 2020 and 2021 classes as our staff became Midwest heavy with Conroy, Jeter and Lindsted in 2018. The staff took on the very approach I'm talking about by kicking it off with the short lived Tray Jackson from Michigan commitment in 2018 (2019 class), they landed Martice Mitchell (from Illinois) in the 2020 class, Kenny Pohto (from Sweden but HS in Kansas) in 2021 and I think they had high interest from Tamin Lipsey (top recruit from Iowa) and Joe Hurlburt (top 75 recruit from North Dakota) in the 2022 class but unfortunately for them, they ran out of time.

If you can supplement the roster with pre-injury Eric Currys from SEC/Big 12 country (who deserves be on that list btw) then awesome but expecting to do that every year when you're building is how you end up in a red suit in New Mexico. Your core group in the short term is going to come locally and regionally. I've been preaching this for weeks that my whole thought process is that we need to establish regional pipelines then build out nationally. That's how all programs with sustainable success have been built and I think that's what we're going to have from the start with Ben. Whether we expand beyond a regional program will be determined by how they develop and the product they put on the court.
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100% agree. Secure the local talent first and then supplement it with recruits from outside the midwest. The one redeeming part of the Ben Johnson is that he's a "Minnesota Guy"... we'll see if it translates to recruiting.
 

GopherNuts said:
I think that says more about Pitino's ignorance and arrogance early on than the recruits in the Midwest. Wisconsin's recruited the region almost exclusively for the last two decades and we see where it's got them, Iowa had a great regular season with a bunch of Midwest kids and Iowa State's had 7-8 kids from the region play in the NBA in the same time frame that group you listed played for the Gophers.

Pitino didn't recruit the Midwest outside of Minnesota until the last few years and that's reflected in who he offered. 247 has this stuff listed and you'll see the shift away from Northeast offers in the 2020 and 2021 classes as our staff became Midwest heavy with Conroy, Jeter and Lindsted in 2018. The staff took on the very approach I'm talking about by kicking it off with the short lived Tray Jackson from Michigan commitment in 2018 (2019 class), they landed Martice Mitchell (from Illinois) in the 2020 class, Kenny Pohto (from Sweden but HS in Kansas) in 2021 and I think they had high interest from Tamin Lipsey (top recruit from Iowa) and Joe Hurlburt (top 75 recruit from North Dakota) in the 2022 class but unfortunately for them, they ran out of time.

If you can supplement the roster with pre-injury Eric Currys from SEC/Big 12 country (who deserves be on that list btw) then awesome but expecting to do that every year when you're building is how you end up in a red suit in New Mexico. Your core group in the short term is going to come locally and regionally. I've been preaching this for weeks that my whole thought process is that we need to establish regional pipelines then build out nationally. That's how all programs with sustainable success have been built and I think that's what we're going to have from the start with Ben. Whether we expand beyond a regional program will be determined by how they develop and the product they put on the court.
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That is not how all elite programs were built. Several took players that fit from all over, started to win and then got better players and won really big.
 


goldengophers said:
Your point: being an assistant prior to headcoach can be a successful path.
My objection is that it's a context free point and a provided list of coaches whose backgrounds bear little to no resemblance to Ben Johnson's.
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No, My point was Head coaching experience was not predictive of success.

However, I see where you thought that; the portion regarding Ben Johnson Assistant coach years was simply a coincidentaly true statement, that related back to an earlier point.
 



MplsGopher said:
Not if you're good at sports!
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Yeah you are probably right. The athletic programs at Cretin, Hill Murray and such are bringing massive amounts of money, it makes sense to give free tuition. The amount of money selling $5 tickets to games and little 1 dollar bags of popcorn is massive.

I will say getting a lot of these scholarship athletes at Catholic schools to attend church with their families on Sundays is pretty amazing, but yet you see them there. Quite a scam they have running. Hahahaha.
 

MplsGopher said:
No idea what you mean. Feel free to PM, if you feel it's too far off topic here.
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No need, it is pretty simple. If it was an argument about competitiveness, the problem wouldn't be with simply private schools. The problem would also be with programs like Hermantown in hockey Hopkins in basketball, or Apple Valley in wrestling but that doesn't seem the problem. It is keeping kids out of scholastic competition that hold religious beliefs or want educational opportunities outside the system. Not exactly fresh ideas on your part, but still should be called out.
 

builtbadgers said:
That is not how all elite programs were built. Several took players that fit from all over, started to win and then got better players and won really big.
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Coach K, who else? If you're a building program that's recruiting successfully on a national level, there's probably some dirty business going on behind the scenes. Took Tony Bennett five years before he could really recruit outside of VA, NC and Georgia.
 

GopherNuts said:
Coach K, who else? If you're a building program that's recruiting successfully on a national level, there's probably some dirty business going on behind the scenes. Took Tony Bennett five years before he could really recruit outside of VA, NC and Georgia
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Not even close to the truth. I was there for a whole bunch of it and his first class had 6 guys from outside the states toy mentioned, then just keep going. Same at WSU where he got players from all over in building. Klay, Baynes, Low,Cowgill, Weaver all came from far away. Same at UVA. One meaningful Virginia kid in Hall. Brogdon came from a place the same distance from Cville that MPLS is from Chicago. His walk on's come from Virginia. He focused on character, building the culture then sold better players the vision. That is what paved the way to 10 straight winning ACC records. He finds players that fit and makes them better no matter where they come from. He does not hit on everyone,no one does and he misses on almost everyone the blue bloods offer. Having a clear vision to what you want to be and finding guys that fit that, that has some non negotiables . But where people come from, what color they are means nothing to him.
 
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atsgopher said:
No, My point was Head coaching experience was not predictive of success.

However, I see where you thought that; the portion regarding Ben Johnson Assistant coach years was simply a coincidentaly true statement, that related back to an earlier point.
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Got it, you point on prior HC is certainly is true. I am frustrated with the inexperienced route we went- as you can tell -but ultimately pulling for Ben to put together a great staff and keep more Minnesotans home.
 

WoodburyTim said:
Yeah you are probably right. The athletic programs at Cretin, Hill Murray and such are bringing massive amounts of money, it makes sense to give free tuition. The amount of money selling $5 tickets to games and little 1 dollar bags of popcorn is massive.

I will say getting a lot of these scholarship athletes at Catholic schools to attend church with their families on Sundays is pretty amazing, but yet you see them there. Quite a scam they have running. Hahahaha.
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No free tuition at CDH.
 



builtbadgers said:
Not even close to the truth. I was there for a whole bunch of it and his first class had 6 guys from outside the states toy mentioned, then just keep going. Same at WSU where he got players from all over in building. Klay, Baynes, Low,Cowgill, Weaver all came from far away. Same at UVA. One meaningful Virginia kid in Hall. Brogdon came from a place the same distance from Cville that MPLS is from Chicago. His walk on's come from Virginia. He focused on character, building the culture then sold better players the vision. That is what paved the way to 10 straight winning ACC records. He finds players that fit and makes them better no matter where they come from. He does not hit on everyone,no one does and he misses on almost everyone the blue bloods offer. Having a clear vision to what you want to be and finding guys that fit that, that has some non negotiables . But where people come from, what color they are means nothing to him.
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No coach is approaching recruiting with the thought I need this many from this state and this many from that state. I don't doubt that Bennett does his due diligence and prioritizes fit in a recruit but I think by focusing on that entirely, you're downplaying the buy in and work that was put in from the early groups of players in Bennett's tenure at UVA that largely came from VA down to Georgia. Without buy in from Mike Scott (VA kid), Jontel Evans (VA kid), Akil Mitchell (from neighboring North Carolina), he likely doesn't make the tournament in any of his first four years in the job. Does Devon Hall end up at Maryland in that scenario? Darion Atkins (from neighboring Maryland) pretty important to a conference title or two. Was Justin Anderson (VA kid) not an important part of the Sweet 16 team? What about Anthony Gill (from NC)? Nowadays his walk ons come from VA but without those kids from the region that helped establish the culture (The five pillars), Tony doesn't get to where he is now.

Something that stuck out to me in looking into his early days at UVA is an interaction on an in-home visit that Bennett and Jontel Evans from Hampton, VA (one of his first recruits at UVA) had: Bennett said, ‘Live by faith and not by sight,’” Evans told UVA Today. “He said it with a smile and then just walked gracefully out of the front door. “I wanted to chase him down and say, ‘I’m staying!’ but I had to talk it over with my parents first.” Evans said something about Bennett’s words just resonated. “I perceived it back then like that it was a new program, a new coach and we’re at the bottom of the ACC,” Evans said, “but if you believe in what I’m trying to do, the rest will take care of itself. And I wanted to be a part of that. I wanted to be a part of something that was much bigger than myself.”

A local bought in, grinded through the early part of the build at UVA, started 92 games and played a key part in laying the foundation for tournament teams down the road. It's the kids in the regional pipelines that were the messengers that gave Virginia back that national reach.
 


UpAndUnder43 said:
Crazy that Johnson’s staff will be full of guys currently on elite 8 teams so he can’t hire them yet.
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I heard Juwan Howard is going to be an assistant here next year, so he can have a year to coach Chet. And then he’s going to take over as coach of the NBA team that takes Chet in the lottery.
 

MplsGopher said:
The over all thing is: what is the percentage of a team's starters/contributors who did not "grow up" in that school district or syst
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MplsGopher said:
Fair point. And on the flip side, I'm pretty sure that each of the main private high schools either run their own schools for lower grades and/or are affiliated with "feeder" schools.

The over all thing is: what is the percentage of a team's starters/contributors who did not "grow up" in that school district or system?


At some schools, it obviously just does not matter if they win with "their kids". They'll gladly, happily take a kid who grew up in the district/system, has waiting patiently their whole lives, and just kick them to the curb like a sack of trash for someone else who is recruited to show up.


As like almost everything, it's a spectrum. It feels "less bad" to me for a kid who at least has come to the school by 9th grade. Showing up at 11th grade to a be a two year starter, driving halfway across the metro, feels just wrong. Might as well just make it all club sports, then.
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That happens all the time at public schools too
 

matt said:
I heard Juwan Howard is going to be an assistant here next year, so he can have a year to coach Chet. And then he’s going to take over as coach of the NBA team that takes Chet in the lottery.
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Not sure Johnson would take Howard...we’ll see I guess.
 

GopherPlaya said:
That happens all the time at public schools too
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Instances is not the point. Agree they happen at probably every top program.

The point was: what is the percentage of a team's starters/contributors who did not "grow up" in that school district or system?
 


GopherNuts said:
No coach is approaching recruiting with the thought I need this many from this state and this many from that state. I don't doubt that Bennett does his due diligence and prioritizes fit in a recruit but I think by focusing on that entirely, you're downplaying the buy in and work that was put in from the early groups of players in Bennett's tenure at UVA that largely came from VA down to Georgia. Without buy in from Mike Scott (VA kid), Jontel Evans (VA kid), Akil Mitchell (from neighboring North Carolina), he likely doesn't make the tournament in any of his first four years in the job. Does Devon Hall end up at Maryland in that scenario? Darion Atkins (from neighboring Maryland) pretty important to a conference title or two. Was Justin Anderson (VA kid) not an important part of the Sweet 16 team? What about Anthony Gill (from NC)? Nowadays his walk ons come from VA but without those kids from the region that helped establish the culture (The five pillars), Tony doesn't get to where he is now.

Something that stuck out to me in looking into his early days at UVA is an interaction on an in-home visit that Bennett and Jontel Evans from Hampton, VA (one of his first recruits at UVA) had: Bennett said, ‘Live by faith and not by sight,’” Evans told UVA Today. “He said it with a smile and then just walked gracefully out of the front door. “I wanted to chase him down and say, ‘I’m staying!’ but I had to talk it over with my parents first.” Evans said something about Bennett’s words just resonated. “I perceived it back then like that it was a new program, a new coach and we’re at the bottom of the ACC,” Evans said, “but if you believe in what I’m trying to do, the rest will take care of itself. And I wanted to be a part of that. I wanted to be a part of something that was much bigger than myself.”

A local bought in, grinded through the early part of the build at UVA, started 92 games and played a key part in laying the foundation for tournament teams down the road. It's the kids in the regional pipelines that were the messengers that gave Virginia back that national reach.
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I was there for all of it. Harris was coming no matter what, Brogdon was coming without the Evans recommit, simply resell who fit the find guys that you can lose with first mantra Bennett believes in. Anderson is was a fallout from going to Maryland on a coaching change and the values from Montrosse Christian fit. You can guess that they would not have made the tourney and none of what followed all you want but they did make it and he would win anywhere. It was not built with Virginia kids, your counting NC kids, Georgia kids, HE had NC connections from his NBA days in Charlotte, Wally Walker helped, he had international contacts, he had scout contacts that were smitten with his way. He got players from all over at WSU based on the same pitch he gave Evans who was very instrumental in helping demonstrate real toughness with limited skill. He has a great eye for what Jerome could be, ranked 252 at the time of his offer, from New York and the Jerome's were not going with anyone else.Guy would tell you he would have come any year and team to play for him. I know all too well how though and insightful that criteria is. They never said, lets build it with a foundation of Virginia kids. To this day, even with all the winning he can not get the Virginia high end talent, they leave the state. This was all laid out in detail in summer of '09.
 

builtbadgers said:
I was there for all of it. Harris was coming no matter what, Brogdon was coming without the Evans recommit, simply resell who fit the find guys that you can lose with first mantra Bennett believes in. Anderson is was a fallout from going to Maryland on a coaching change and the values from Montrosse Christian fit. You can guess that they would not have made the tourney and none of what followed all you want but they did make it and he would win anywhere. It was not built with Virginia kids, your counting NC kids, Georgia kids, HE had NC connections from his NBA days in Charlotte, Wally Walker helped, he had international contacts, he had scout contacts that were smitten with his way. He got players from all over at WSU based on the same pitch he gave Evans who was very instrumental in helping demonstrate real toughness with limited skill. He has a great eye for what Jerome could be, ranked 252 at the time of his offer, from New York and the Jerome's were not going with anyone else.Guy would tell you he would have come any year and team to play for him. I know all too well how though and insightful that criteria is. They never said, lets build it with a foundation of Virginia kids. To this day, even with all the winning he can not get the Virginia high end talent, they leave the state. This was all laid out in detail in summer of '09.
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GopherNuts said:
Coach K, who else? If you're a building program that's recruiting successfully on a national level, there's probably some dirty business going on behind the scenes. Took Tony Bennett five years before he could really recruit outside of VA, NC and Georgia.
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An exact quote from Tony Bennett's intro press conference at UVA "There's a couple things I need to accomplish right away before we get going. The first one is this, I need to fill my staff, I need to get a qualified excellent staff. They gotta be able to recruit, have to have ties in this area, in this talent rich state, have to be able to coach and they have to be able to really develop and make sure that it's a student athlete experience, that is one that they will never forget" timestamp 2:40

Do I think Bennett's main focus in recruiting was to get kids from Virginia and the ACC region (the Mid-Atlantic and the Southeast)? No. Did he recruit to a certain set of values and was he willing to take a recruit from anywhere on earth? Without a doubt. But he knew like any coach that in trying to build a program, they were not going to be able to pluck a kid from any part of the country AT FIRST and that early investment into the program was going to come from within the region. Which is why he and his staff took advantage of regional connections they had early in his tenure at Virginia.

Do you think a kid from California is going to have the same level of belief in Ben Johnson that Jamison Battle has? No. Coaches that have been around Battle know Ben and trust him, no doubt those two had some sort of relationship prior to him getting the job...probably had a couple conversations at the very least. Relationships are what win in recruiting and those connections naturally start in-state and within the region when you first get a job. I don't think Johnson's approach to recruiting is going to be any different than Bennett's, he's going to look for specific on and off the court traits in a kid but early on that investment will come locally until you're able to branch out. By then Ty Jerome from New York knows about your program, what you're about, your developmental program and how you get guys to the NBA.
 

MplsGopher said:
Instances is not the point. Agree they happen at probably every top program.

The point was: what is the percentage of a team's starters/contributors who did not "grow up" in that school district or system?
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Probably 70+ Zeke Nnaji played at hopkins n lived in Lakeville that state championship team had 2 seniors who transferred from Minnetonka. Kerwin isn’t a Hopkins kid
 


GopherPlaya said:
Probably 70+ Zeke Nnaji played at hopkins n lived in Lakeville that state championship team had 2 seniors who transferred from Minnetonka. Kerwin isn’t a Hopkins kid
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The Hopkins school district is massive. It covers far more than just the city of Hopkins (a relatively small city). It's a result of many mergers of smaller school districts.

I believe the Hopkins district covers more area of the city of Minnetonka than the Minnetonka district does.
 

I'm intrigued who is assistants will be. I'm not sold on Thorson. Man can coach, but I know nothing about his recruiting.

Ideally you would have three assistants that can coach AND recruit. Hoping that's not too much to ask.
 

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