All Things 2024 Minnesota Twins In-Season Thread

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Gophers1992 said:
I won't spoil the answers but since none of yours were listed I'm going to assume they only count guys who pitched after the award was created.
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Ahh, that makes sense. I will withhold my additional guess of Addie Joss.
 


As a modified guess, I will go with Jack Morris in the Cy Young Award Era.
 


Gophers1992 said:
I won't spoil the answers but since none of yours were listed I'm going to assume they only count guys who pitched after the award was created.
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Ope3 said:
Ahh, that makes sense. I will withhold my additional guess of Addie Joss.
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I thought of another stalwart, Kid Nichols, before actually looking at the Career WAR list, and he is right behind the 3 I listed. Joss is way down the list, though still a HoFer.

Ope3 said:
As a modified guess, I will go with Jack Morris in the Cy Young Award Era.
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Turns out Black Jack is nowhere near the top of the leaders.
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
Today’s Trivia
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The top pitchers that never won a Cy Young Award! #mlb #baseball #pitching #award

Buy tickets NOW for our All-Star event on Tuesday, July 16th in Dallas, Texas! https://shop.jomboymedia.com/products/jomboy-media-all-star-party-dallasSubscr...
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Name the Top 5 pitchers by WAR to have never won a Cy Young -
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This is not completely cheating, because I did not check to see if they won a Cy Young or not but in addition to Bert & Nolan, the 3 names that stick out the most to me by looking at the Career WAR List are:

Phil Niekro
Mike Mussina
Curt Schilling
 

FWIW - Cy Young award began in 1956. (1st winner - Don Newcombe)

so obviously some of the great pitchers pre-1956 are not on the list, because you cannot win an award that does not exist.

from 1956 through 1966, there was 1 Cy Young winner covering all teams. starting in 1967, they went to 1 winner for AL and 1 winner for NL.

Cy Young awards won by a Twin
Johan Santana 2004 & 2006
Frank Viola 1988
Jim Perry 1970

Cy Young awards won by someone who played for the Twins - but did not win the Cy Young AS a Twin:
Dean Chance 1964 (Angels)
Mike Marshall 1974 (Dodgers)
Steve Bedrosian 1987 (Phillies)
Bartolo Colon 2005 (Angels)
R.A. Dickey 2012 (Mets)
Dallas Keuchel 2015 (Astros)

(Early Wynn was a Cy Young winner in 1959 for the White Sox. He never pitched for the Twins, but he was the Twins' pitching coach from 1967 to 1969. Rod Carew said he would throw at hitters during batting practice if the batter hit a ball close to Wynn......)
 

Gophers1992 said:
I'm going to throw Bert Blyleven as a guess as well.
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Looking at Bert's WAR alone (12th at 96.1), I wonder why it was even a question that he would make it to Cooperstown.

Along with the Career Ks and being a key Starter for 2 World Series Champions, 287 Ws, should have been a no brainer, IMO.

When you figure in "contribution to the game" with a surgery named after him that has extended the careers of thousands of pitchers, I think Tommy John should get in. He's 53rd at 62.1 with 288 Ws.
 



Ope3 said:
Looking at Bert's WAR alone (12th at 96.1), I wonder why it was even a question that he would make it to Cooperstown.

Along with the Career Ks and being a key Starter for 2 World Series Champions, 287 Ws, should have been a no brainer, IMO.

When you figure in "contribution to the game" with a surgery named after him that has extended the careers of thousands of pitchers, I think Tommy John should get in. He's 53rd at 62.1 with 288 Ws.
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Yeah the fact that it took a guy who nearly compiled 100 WAR that long to make it in is a real crime.

I love Bert and for the most part enjoyed him on TV, but there's a certain irony to the fact that he is so anti-analytics, yet analytics paint his career in a far better light than "traditional" metrics.
 

Ope3 said:
This is not completely cheating, because I did not check to see if they won a Cy Young or not but in addition to Bert & Nolan, the 3 names that stick out the most to me by looking at the Career WAR List are:

Phil Niekro
Mike Mussina
Curt Schilling
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The Russian judge gives your efforts a 6.0
 
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Ope3 said:
Looking at Bert's WAR alone (12th at 96.1), I wonder why it was even a question that he would make it to Cooperstown.

Along with the Career Ks and being a key Starter for 2 World Series Champions, 287 Ws, should have been a no brainer, IMO.

When you figure in "contribution to the game" with a surgery named after him that has extended the careers of thousands of pitchers, I think Tommy John should get in. He's 53rd at 62.1 with 288 Ws.
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The Russian judge sees you have redeemed yourself, comrade, and completely agrees with this post/methodology

10.0
 
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with Bert, I think there was a feeling among some voters that he accumulated his numbers by longevity - and there was the giving up HR's issue. and during a time when "wins" were considered more important, Bert was 287-250 overall - a 53.4% winning percentage.

that's the dichotomy of the Hall. you have people in the Hall who were really great for a relatively short career - like Koufax. and then you have people who may not have been great, but they were really good for a long time - Jim Kaat among others. all depends on who's voting and what standards they choose to apply.

if you're going by raw numbers, Kirby Puckett is not a cinch HOF'er - but he shone in big moments like the World Series. Tony Oliva's career numbers are not spectacular, but during his heyday ('64 to '71) he was one of the best hitters in the game. If you've never checked it out, look at Oliva's numbers for those 8 seasons. He received MVP votes every season for 8 years for a reason. If not for that g-damn sprinkler head in Oakland, Tony would have been a 1st-ballot HOF'er.
 



Ope3 said:
This is not completely cheating, because I did not check to see if they won a Cy Young or not but in addition to Bert & Nolan, the 3 names that stick out the most to me by looking at the Career WAR List are:

Phil Niekro
Mike Mussina
Curt Schilling
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Mussina is another guy I thought of but then went "nah, he wasn't that good". But he really was, very underrated.
 


short ornery norwegian said:
with Bert, I think there was a feeling among some voters that he accumulated his numbers by longevity - and there was the giving up HR's issue. and during a time when "wins" were considered more important, Bert was 287-250 overall - a 53.4% winning percentage.

that's the dichotomy of the Hall. you have people in the Hall who were really great for a relatively short career - like Koufax. and then you have people who may not have been great, but they were really good for a long time - Jim Kaat among others. all depends on who's voting and what standards they choose to apply.

if you're going by raw numbers, Kirby Puckett is not a cinch HOF'er - but he shone in big moments like the World Series. Tony Oliva's career numbers are not spectacular, but during his heyday ('64 to '71) he was one of the best hitters in the game. If you've never checked it out, look at Oliva's numbers for those 8 seasons. He received MVP votes every season for 8 years for a reason. If not for that g-damn sprinkler head in Oakland, Tony would have been a 1st-ballot HOF'er.
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Yes, there are some that think you have to be considered great to be eligible for the HOF. Blyleven was never one of the top pitchers in MLB.

There was an article a long time ago that talked about him (it was before he was elected). Essentially argued that if you were to start up a team and if you could have either Koufax or Blyleven on your team for the duration of their career, it's not at all crazy to pick Blyleven. There's value in being good over a long time.

I'd still probably take Koufax but it's close.
 

From Dan Hayes’ column today, regarding trade deadline help (sounds encouraging to this optimist😃) -

The team is targeting starting pitching help before the July 30 trade deadline. As close as that deadline seems, Twins president of baseball operations Derek Falvey cautioned there is waiting ahead.

“A lot of this comes down as close to the end,” Falvey said. “There’s a lot of high-level discussions, and I know it feels approximate to the deadline, but in baseball hours and terms, it’s an eternity between now and then.”

Falvey confirmed adding to the rotation is the team’s top priority. He also suggested that because the National League wild-card picture is in flux (nine teams are within five games of the second and third spots), clubs remain uncertain about whether they’ll be buyers or sellers.

He suspects most clubs will take the final week before the deadline to see where they stand.

“What I’ve felt is the teams that are maybe more clearly ‘sell’ just believe that maybe they view the best deals will come in the last 24 to 48 hours,” Falvey said. “We’re going to have to wait to see how that all shakes out.”
 

GophersInIowa said:
Yes, there are some that think you have to be considered great to be eligible for the HOF. Blyleven was never one of the top pitchers in MLB.

There was an article a long time ago that talked about him (it was before he was elected). Essentially argued that if you were to start up a team and if you could have either Koufax or Blyleven on your team for the duration of their career, it's not at all crazy to pick Blyleven. There's value in being good over a long time.

I'd still probably take Koufax but it's close.
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I understand the overall point you're making but I don't totally agree with the bolded. His 1973-1975 seasons he was elite.

Also he somehow put up a 6.0 WAR season at age 38, which was sandwiched between the two worst seasons of his career.
 

Gophers1992 said:
I understand the overall point you're making but I don't totally agree with the bolded. His 1973-1975 seasons he was elite.

Also he somehow put up a 6.0 WAR season at age 38, which was sandwiched between the two worst seasons of his career.
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I should have said he was never considered a top pitcher in the game. In 1973, he finished 7th in the Cy Young. He didn't even get votes in 1974 or 75. Only two time All-Star.

There were a lot of good pitchers during the early to mid 70's. He should have been considered one of the top but he wasn't. Luckily the thinking of what's important in a pitcher is different now and that's why he finally got in.
 

Gophers1992 said:
I understand the overall point you're making but I don't totally agree with the bolded. His 1973-1975 seasons he was elite.

Also he somehow put up a 6.0 WAR season at age 38, which was sandwiched between the two worst seasons of his career.
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1973 was when the DH was introduced and he still had ERAs at 3.00 or below all 3 seasons. After his Rookie Year in 1970 when he had a solid ERA or 3.18 over 164 innings.

Seasons 2-9* he was never above 3.03. 6 of those he was sub-3.00. That's pretty elite.

9th season was with the Pirates (no DH again).
 
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Gopher_In_NYC said:
From Dan Hayes’ column today, regarding trade deadline help (sounds encouraging to this optimist😃) -

The team is targeting starting pitching help before the July 30 trade deadline. As close as that deadline seems, Twins president of baseball operations Derek Falvey cautioned there is waiting ahead.

“A lot of this comes down as close to the end,” Falvey said. “There’s a lot of high-level discussions, and I know it feels approximate to the deadline, but in baseball hours and terms, it’s an eternity between now and then.”

Falvey confirmed adding to the rotation is the team’s top priority. He also suggested that because the National League wild-card picture is in flux (nine teams are within five games of the second and third spots), clubs remain uncertain about whether they’ll be buyers or sellers.

He suspects most clubs will take the final week before the deadline to see where they stand.

“What I’ve felt is the teams that are maybe more clearly ‘sell’ just believe that maybe they view the best deals will come in the last 24 to 48 hours,” Falvey said. “We’re going to have to wait to see how that all shakes out.”
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On the radio this morning, Bremer seemed to imply that they are expecting some bad news on Paddack (done for the year). Suggested they might go after Paxton as a bridge to the deadline.
 


given the (self-imposed) payroll limits, I just don't see them doing anything that adds a multi-year contract. if they pick someone up, it will (IMHO) be a rental.

this just makes it all the more urgent that some of the home-grown pitching prospects start paying off. in the pipeline, they have Festa, Matthews, Morris, Lewis - and then further out, Raya, CJ Culpepper, Soto, Prielipp and this year's draft pick, Dasan Hill. some of those have to become legitimate big-league pitchers. the Twins can't or won't buy themselves a rotation, so they have to develop one.

(I'm not listing some of the always-injured brigade like Canterino. at this point, if he ever throws an inning in MLB, I will keel over with shock.)

BTW - I'm seeing tweets that Carlos Correa is supposedly giving the front office a list of players who he thinks the Twins should try to acquire.
 

It's been suggested that if they Twins bring on significant salary from a trade, they'll also want to unload some. Kepler seems like the likely choice there. Just can't get it together this year.

It was suggested somewhere that at least part of the reason for the decrease in his power is that he isn't pulling the ball nearly as much. In his big year of 2019, he pulled the ball 50% of the time. This year it's at 35%.
 

Breakin' The Plane said:
On the radio this morning, Bremer seemed to imply that they are expecting some bad news on Paddack (done for the year). Suggested they might go after Paxton as a bridge to the deadline.
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The deadline is only a week away so they'd probably only need 2 starts max. I'd rather one of the young guys get those 2 starts. Paxton hasn't been good.
 

GophersInIowa said:
The deadline is only a week away so they'd probably only need 2 starts max. I'd rather one of the young guys get those 2 starts. Paxton hasn't been good.
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8-2, 4.43 ERA - better ERA than Halibut, Lopez, Varland Feista.

His stats are skewed by his control issues and his last four starts (his ERA was under 3.4 before then).

As a bonus he has playoff experience and is a hedge in case we have arm issues with one of our four regulars in addition to trade deadline starter; out rotation has extraordinary good health- third fewest starts missed this season at the AS break.

You can never have too much starting pitching and if we need a fill in down the stretch for the playoffs, I’m throwing him over Varland/Feista at this point.
 
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Ope3 said:
Looking at Bert's WAR alone (12th at 96.1), I wonder why it was even a question that he would make it to Cooperstown.

Along with the Career Ks and being a key Starter for 2 World Series Champions, 287 Ws, should have been a no brainer, IMO.

When you figure in "contribution to the game" with a surgery named after him that has extended the careers of thousands of pitchers, I think Tommy John should get in. He's 53rd at 62.1 with 288 Ws.
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Where’s your campaign for Mario Mendoza? 🧐😉
 

Gophers1992 said:
Yeah the fact that it took a guy who nearly compiled 100 WAR that long to make it in is a real crime.

I love Bert and for the most part enjoyed him on TV, but there's a certain irony to the fact that he is so anti-analytics, yet analytics paint his career in a far better light than "traditional" metrics.
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To your second point, Joe Morgan similarly bemoaned the analytics angle, even as it elevated his all-time status significantly.
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
8-2, 4.43 ERA - better ERA than Halibut, Lopez, Varland Feista.

His stats are skewed by his control issues and his last four starts (his ERA was under 3.4 before then).

As a bonus he has playoff experience and is a hedge in case we have arm issues with one of our four regulars in addition to trade deadline starter; out rotation has extraordinary good health- third fewest starts missed this season at the AS break.

You can never have too much starting pitching and if we need a fill in down the stretch for the playoffs, I’m throwing him over Varland/Feista at this point.
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His 48 walks and 1.455 WHIP are concerning. If they don't make a move at the deadline, then he'd be ok as a 5th starter replacement I guess. The comments suggested they would think about bringing him in just until the deadline. Seems weird to me to bring him in for just 2 starts.
 

coolhandgopher said:
Where’s your campaign for Mario Mendoza? 🧐😉
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Right there along with Fred "Bonehead" Merkle. Aside from his blunder, Fred was actually a decent player.

While Merkle does not have a plaque, I do recall there being a rather interesting exhibit about his famous blunder which happened in 1908 when he was just a kid at 19 yrs old. He wound up playing until 1926.
 

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