All Things 2023 Minnesota Vikings Off-Season Thread

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howeda7 said:
It was a good trade. It wasn't a "great" trade. It worked out for both teams. The Vikings netted a slightly better, cheaper WR but gave up a great one too.

But 1st round picks still have about a 50% bust rate. So even if we get 2 first round picks for him, odds are will get one good player who probably still won't be as good as JJ and one who flops. That's not a good trade. I would need three 1st round picks to make that trade, and I don't think anyone will do that.
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Drafting players must be a terrifying endeavor - I think NFL GM is the toughest non-player job in sports and on top of the 🧢 as well.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
5 years 160 million, ~32 million per year seems about right. It's similar to what Cousin's cap hit was the last 2 years. Find a good QB on a rookie deal and I'm good with it.
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Uh, yeah. We're gonna have to agree to disagree on whether or not it makes sense to give a WR that much. Cousins is a QB. Apples to oranges.
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
Diggs is good, but not NFL Offensive Player of the Year good and likely HOF (barring injury).
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I agree. Therefore if Diggs brought in "X" in a trade, Jefferson should be worth even more.

Gopher_In_NYC said:
How much value does Kelsey add to Mahomes? You can look at that angle as well, right?
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I don't know how to quantify that, but Mahomes would be a great QB even if he had a lesser TE. Mahomes makes his team mates better, I believe.
 

RememberMurray said:
I agree. Therefore if Diggs brought in "X" in a trade, Jefferson should be worth even more.
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That was an excellent pick, as no one IMO likely knew that JJ’s ceiling is this expansive and expensive
RememberMurray said:
I don't know how to quantify that, but Mahomes would be a great QB even if he had a lesser TE. Mahomes makes his team mates better, I believe.
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Try, but my point is that he is a significant contributor to Pat’s success
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
Drafting players must be a terrifying endeavor - I think NFL GM is the toughest non-player job in sports and on top of the 🧢 as well.
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Yes indeed.

That's why you need lots of picks; the odds are that you're going to misfire on some of them. It's also why you need cap space for flexibility, because when you miss on a pick or two you can fill in with a free agency signing or two. But you need cap space in order to do that.

It makes no sense to cut cap space at QB, the most crucial position on the field and the hardest to fill — in order to free up cap room — while you simultaneously handcuff yourself in cap flexibility by tying up a huge portion of that space to a wide receiver (of all positions).

The team needs to roll the dice in the draft and find their young franchise QB. They need lots of picks, and they need cap space too.
 
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RememberMurray said:
Uh, yeah. We're gonna have to agree to disagree on whether or not it makes sense to give a WR that much. Cousins is a QB. Apples to oranges.
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Cousins is an average QB, JJ is an elite WR. It makes sense to give a young, elite WR that much when you won't be paying a QB, or anyone else close to that much.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Cousins is an average QB, JJ is an elite WR. It makes sense to give a young, elite WR that much when you won't be paying a QB, or anyone else close to that much.
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No, no, no.

— I would never pay any WR that much. Ever. WR is too low on the positional priority list to dedicate that much cap space to it.

— The entire idea in dumping Cousins is to free cap space, yes; but not just for the sole purpose of giving that cap space to a WR! That's insane. Crazy.
You need that space to be available to you as you continue the process of building this team out at multiple positions. The defense has been abysmal and desperately needs retooling, for example.

Gather to yourself a jewel-like collection of draft picks and use your newly-available cap space to pick up some key players at various positions that meet your needs and fit your team culture. Think beyond 5 minutes from now.

And I'm leery of guys who make noise about how they want to be the highest paid non-QB in NFL history. Me, me, me.
 
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RememberMurray said:
Yes indeed.

That's why you need lots of picks; the odds are that you're going to misfire on some of them. It's also why you need cap space for flexibility, because when you miss on a pick or two you can fill in with a free agency signing or two. But you need cap space in order to do that.

It makes no sense to cut cap space at QB, the most crucial position on the field and the hardest to fill — in order to free up cap room — while you simultaneously handcuff yourself in cap flexibility by tying up a huge portion of that space to a wide receiver (of all positions).

The team needs to roll the dice in the draft and find their young franchise QB. They need lots of picks, and they need cap space too.
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My thumb is tired

Uncle
 

RememberMurray said:
No, no, no.

— I would never pay any WR that much. Ever. WR is too low on the positional priority list to dedicate that much cap space to it.

— The entire idea in dumping Cousins is to free cap space, yes; but not just for the sole purpose of giving that cap space to a WR! That's insane. Crazy.
You need that space to be available to you as you continue the process of building this team out at multiple positions. The defense has been abysmal and desperately needs retooling, for example.

Gather to yourself a jewel-like collection of draft picks and use your newly-available cap space to pick up some key players at various positions that meet your needs and fit your team culture. Think beyond 5 minutes from now.

And I'm leery of guys who make noise about how they want to be the highest paid non-QB in NFL history. Me, me, me.
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How often has a team won the Super Bowl without an elite WR or TE?

It doesn't happen that often. You need an elite QB and at least 1 elite pass catcher.
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
How often has a team won the Super Bowl without an elite WR or TE?

It doesn't happen that often. You need an elite QB and at least 1 elite pass catcher.
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I'd have to go back and look. Off the top of my head, which WR(s) on the many New England Patriot championship teams would you consider to be elite, and how much of the cap space were they taking up? Off the top of my head, I can't remember. I'm pretty sure none of them were asking for more money than any non-QB in league history. I'm pretty sure of that. And if any one of them made that demand, I don't think they'd remain Patriots for very long.

I guess if you combine wide receivers and tight ends it helps your argument. Will we need an elite tight end and JJ? Or does just one or the other suffice?
 
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I think the pertinent question is: how many Super Bowl winning teams had a wide receiver who was making more money than any non-QB in NFL history?

Because that's supposedly what JJ wants. And I get the impression that several GopherHolers think the team should agree to that.
 

FWIW - another factor to consider - JJ is one of - if not the most - popular players on the Vikings. every little kid in the country is doing the Griddy.

So - if the Vikes were actually going to consider trading him, they had better be ready for one heck of a backlash. And that trade had better work - because if it doesn't, Kwesi and KOC will go into the history books as the idiots who traded away JJ.

ESPN would be going 24/7 with every panel show piling on.

like it or not, that has to be taken into account.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
FWIW - another factor to consider - JJ is one of - if not the most - popular players on the Vikings. every little kid in the country is doing the Griddy.

So - if the Vikes were actually going to consider trading him, they had better be ready for one heck of a backlash. And that trade had better work - because if it doesn't, Kwesi and KOC will go into the history books as the idiots who traded away JJ.

ESPN would be going 24/7 with every panel show piling on.

like it or not, that has to be taken into account.
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He's popular and he's a great player and he deserves to get paid.

But I would not be the GM of the team that pays him more money than any other non-QB in NFL history. If JJ needs that much, I'd tell his agent that the team will do our best to find a trade partner that wants him badly enough to give him that, but I'd make it clear that since the other team wants him that much, the price will be high.

He's under team control for two more seasons.

If the Vikings trade him and are winning championships without JJ the fans wounds will heal. Trust me. Little kids can find a new Viking championship dance to do instead of the Griddy.
 
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RememberMurray said:
He's popular and he's a great player and he deserves to get paid.

But I would not be the GM of the team that pays him more money than any other non-QB in NFL history. If JJ needs that much, I'd tell his agent that the team will do our best to find a trade partner that wants him badly enough to give him that, but I'd make it clear that since the other team wants him that much, the price will be high.

He's under team control for two more seasons.

If the Vikings trade him and are winning championships without JJ the fans wounds will heal. Trust me. Little kids can find a new Viking championship dance to do instead of the Griddy.
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I think you're hung up on the "highest paid non-QB" part too much. Yes he will be. For 5 minutes until the next guy comes along.
 

With this Justin Jefferson talk, it's pretty amazing to think that Jalen Reagor was taken just 1 slot (#21) by the Eagles ahead of the Vikings turn in the 2020 Draft.

Fortuitous.

I'm guessing there would have been a parade in Philly last month if they had taken JJ.
 

RememberMurray said:
I'd have to go back and look. Off the top of my head, which WR(s) on the many New England Patriot championship teams would you consider to be elite, and how much of the cap space were they taking up? Off the top of my head, I can't remember. I'm pretty sure none of them were asking for more money than any non-QB in league history. I'm pretty sure of that. And if any one of them made that demand, I don't think they'd remain Patriots for very long.

I guess if you combine wide receivers and tight ends it helps your argument. Will we need an elite tight end and JJ? Or does just one or the other suffice?
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Tom Brady the 🐐 at his position, has to be considered an outlier, right?

Do isn’t the more relevant question, excluding him, which teams didn’t have an elite pass catcher?
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
Tom Brady the 🐐 at his position, has to be considered an outlier, right?

Do isn’t the more relevant question, excluding him, which teams didn’t have an elite pass catcher?
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Wow.

Okay: How about the Giants and Eli Manning? Who was the elite pass catcher on those two Giants championship teams who was using up a big chunk of cap space?
 

How about the Eagles in 2018? You gonna back up your Brinks truck for Nelson Agholor if he tells you he wants a huge payday? Or was the elite Nick Foles the straw that stirred the drink on that team?
 
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RememberMurray said:
Wow.

Okay: How about the Giants and Eli Manning? Who was the elite pass catcher on those two Giants championship teams who was using up a big chunk of cap space?
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What about Joe Montana/Steve Young and Jerry Rice. One instance doesn’t prove a point, but rather which one has more in its column?
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
What about Joe Montana/Steve Young and Jerry Rice. One instance doesn’t prove a point, but rather which one has more in its column?
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Jerry Rice?!?! You, sir, are a funny man.

If Tom Brady is disqualified from consideration in this debate (according to you!) because he's the GOAT and too much of an "outlier", then Jerry Freakin' Rice is too much of an outlier too. You can't have it both ways.

JJ has been impressive so far in his young career, but he has a long, long loooooonnnnnng way to go before I'm paying him as if he's Jerry Rice!

Good one!
 

RememberMurray said:
Jerry Rice?!?! You, sir, are a funny man.

If Tom Brady is disqualified from consideration in this debate (according to you!) because he's the GOAT and too much of an "outlier", then Jerry Freakin' Rice is too much of an outlier too. You can't have it both ways.

JJ has been impressive so far in his young career, but he has a long, long loooooonnnnnng way to go before I'm paying him as if he's Jerry Rice!

Good one!
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3 years in he's outpacing Jerry Rice. Doesn't mean it will continue of course.

And this is not about a QB or JJ choice. They've already made their choice. They're going to draft a QB. So what do you want to spend this cap $$ you're saving by ditching JJ on? You mentioned that only OT's, DE's and QB's are worth big bucks. They've already got two good OT's.

So if your choice is keep JJ for $30 million or keep Danielle Hunter for $20 million, you'd rather have Hunter? I wouldn't and it's not even close. If you want draft picks, trade DH for a 1st round pick right now. I'm 100% on board with that. I'd rather get one 1st for Hunter than 3 for JJ.
 

RememberMurray said:
Jerry Rice?!?! You, sir, are a funny man.

If Tom Brady is disqualified from consideration in this debate (according to you!) because he's the GOAT and too much of an "outlier", then Jerry Freakin' Rice is too much of an outlier too. You can't have it both ways.

JJ has been impressive so far in his young career, but he has a long, long loooooonnnnnng way to go before I'm paying him as if he's Jerry Rice!

Good one!
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Damn. I thought I’d slip it past you
🤣🤣
 


howeda7 said:
3 years in he's outpacing Jerry Rice. Doesn't mean it will continue of course.

And this is not about a QB or JJ choice. They've already made their choice. They're going to draft a QB. So what do you want to spend this cap $$ you're saving by ditching JJ on? You mentioned that only OT's, DE's and QB's are worth big bucks. They've already got two good OT's.

So if your choice is keep JJ for $30 million or keep Danielle Hunter for $20 million, you'd rather have Hunter? I wouldn't and it's not even close. If you want draft picks, trade DH for a 1st round pick right now. I'm 100% on board with that. I'd rather get one 1st for Hunter than 3 for JJ.
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Maybe we can look forward to some draft days magic.
 

howeda7 said:
I think you're hung up on the "highest paid non-QB" part too much. Yes he will be. For 5 minutes until the next guy comes along.
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Uhhhh... nope. JJ is hung up up that, not me.

I'm "hung up on" spending that huge a portion of the salary cap on a WR.

Priority 4 position, at best. Slightly higher priority than RB. Very dumb, in my humble opinion.

And they probably need to replace Hunter. He's expendable too. And you have more love for the two tackles than I do. And they need major upgrades at multiple positions on a defense that is beyond bad.
 

RememberMurray said:
Uhhhh... nope. JJ is hung up up that, not me.

I'm "hung up on" spending that huge a portion of the salary cap on a WR.

Priority 4 position, at best. Slightly higher priority than RB. Very dumb, in my humble opinion.

And they probably need to replace Hunter. He's expendable too. And you have more love for the two tackles than I do. And they need major upgrades at multiple positions on a defense that is beyond bad.
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The fact that the NFL free market values wide receivers so highly demonstrates how wrong you are, especially about WR being slightly more important than RB.

Moreover, look at where teams spend their draft capital in Round 1. It's not RB.
 



7Gopher7 said:
Bingo….,maybe they’re all wrong though 🤷🏼‍♂️
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As I've said, several times now in this thread, the priority positions when building a team are...

1) QB
2) Blind side offensive tackle
3) Rush end

WR is maybe #4... maybe.

See if that checks out with how most teams run their annual draft. See if it roughly corresponds with how most teams allocate their salary cap. I bet it does.
 
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Gopherguy0723 said:
The fact that the NFL free market values wide receivers so highly demonstrates how wrong you are, especially about WR being slightly more important than RB.

Moreover, look at where teams spend their draft capital in Round 1. It's not RB.
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I never said RB was a higher priority that WR. I said WR was slightly ahead of RB. Read it again, you'll see.

Sheesh.

Position priority for most NFL teams, when building a team:

1) QB
2) Blind side offensive tackle
3) Rush end

And WR is maybe priority #4. Maybe.

Check it out. See if that's true.
 

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