All Things 2023 Minnesota Vikings Off-Season Thread

Donate To GopherHole
GopherWeatherGuy said:
The answer to your question is the franchise QB will always be kept/paid first over a WR. The Vikings are in a situation to where they can pay JJ now, then hope to draft a good QB who will be on a rookie deal until they likely have to pay JJ again.

Cincinnati is in a much worse situation than us long term. They already have the Burrow and Chase LSU connection, plus Tee Higgins, why would they want or need JJ too? They will have a hard enough time paying just Burrow and Chase long term and having enough money left over for everyone else.
Click to expand...

If you pay JJ and keep him, and then draft a rookie QB, you will be left with a star receiver and a rookie, unproven QB and a roster around the two of them that is aging and on the downside of their careers in many key positions. You will have to address those positions eventually — sooner rather than later, I believe.

The team will need the draft picks that a trade of JJ will bring in. He'll never be worth more than he is right now. Let Cousins walk after 2023, and then trade JJ for a boatload of picks, I honestly believe they can fill many of the needs that they will soon face by trading just one guy. As your rebuilt roster comes of age, you'll probably be drafting pretty high for a year or two. That gives the team even more prime draft picks, to use themselves or as trade pieces.

If I'm wrong about how much JJ is worth, then why would you want to break the bank — and the salary cap — for him?

I like a modified version of the old NE Patriot model; get 'em young, then trade them when their rookie contract is up for a raft of new, fresh young talent/draft picks. Use the cap space you save to sign the right veterans at key positions for leadership and experience.
 

Ope3 said:
I can actually understand your thought process on allocating such a large cap percentage to Jefferson, but as a comp this is the "haul" that KC got for Hill from Miami:

- 1st Rounder
- 2nd Rounder
- Two 4th Rounders
- 6th Rounder

Not sure how much more JJ would command, as they are relatively comparable.
Click to expand...

Don't forget the second prize the Chiefs got after they traded their star receiver. It was a big, beautiful silver trophy with a legendary coach's name engraved on it.
 

RememberMurray said:
If you pay JJ and keep him, and then draft a rookie QB, you will be left with a star receiver and a rookie, unproven QB and a roster around the two of them that is aging and on the downside of their careers in many key positions. You will have to address those positions eventually — sooner rather than later, I believe.

The team will need the draft picks that a trade of JJ will bring in. He'll never be worth more than he is right now. Let Cousins walk after 2023, and then trade JJ for a boatload of picks, I honestly believe they can fill many of the needs that they will soon face by trading just one guy. As your rebuilt roster comes of age, you'll probably be drafting pretty high for a year or two. That gives the team even more prime draft picks, to use themselves or as trade pieces.

If I'm wrong about how much JJ is worth, then why would you want to break the bank — and the salary cap — for him?

I like a modified version of the old NE Patriot model; get 'em young, then trade them when their rookie contract is up for a raft of new, fresh young talent/draft picks. Use the cap space you save to sign the right veterans at key positions for leadership and experience.
Click to expand...
RememberMurray said:
Don't forget the second prize the Chiefs got after they traded their star receiver. It was a big, beautiful silver trophy with a legendary coach's name engraved on it.
Click to expand...

The NE/KC comparison's you're trying to make involved them having Tom Brady and Pat Mahomes at QB, possibly the two greatest QBs of all time. KC let Tyreek go after his second contract, and still have possibly the greatest TE of all time.

The Vikings can easily afford JJ because several of their other highest earning contracts will be expiring or they'll be moving on from them soon. Their OL is young, and they are already rebuilding the rest of their roster, especially on defense.

The key to the Vikings and every other franchise is finding a QB in the draft. If they do it, everything will work out. If they don't, they'll continue to be mediocre or bad until they do.
 

RememberMurray said:
Don't forget the second prize the Chiefs got after they traded their star receiver. It was a big, beautiful silver trophy with a legendary coach's name engraved on it.
Click to expand...
But they already had their cornerstone QB prior to the trade not as a result of it.

Additionally, they had won the trophy in their recent past (2019) as well been in another SB plus had been in 4 straight AFC Championship games.
 

Ope3 said:
But they already had their cornerstone QB prior to the trade not as a result of it.

Additionally, they had won the trophy in their recent past (2019) as well been in another SB plus had been in 4 straight AFC Championship games.
Click to expand...

Winning a second one with basically the same cast of characters is really rare.

To me, the trade looks awfully good. At the very least, it can be pointed out that Mahomes seemed pretty comfortable with whomever they put at receiver instead. And since so much of of the haul the Chiefs got in return was draft picks, I'd assume the dividends will continue to grow as the new blood matures.

Brilliant move.
 


RememberMurray said:
Winning a second one with basically the same cast of characters is really rare.

To me, the trade looks awfully good. At the very least, it can be pointed out that Mahomes seemed pretty comfortable with whomever they put at receiver instead. And since so much of of the haul the Chiefs got in return was draft picks, I'd assume the dividends will continue to grow as the new blood matures.

Brilliant move.
Click to expand...
I agree that the trade the Chiefs made was beneficial for that franchise, perhaps a factor in getting the 2nd trophy.

However, that does not mean I think a similar deal by the Vikings would be in their favor.

But I am not against it being explored.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
The NE/KC comparison's you're trying to make involved them having Tom Brady and Pat Mahomes at QB, possibly the two greatest QBs of all time. KC let Tyreek go after his second contract, and still have possibly the greatest TE of all time.

The Vikings can easily afford JJ because several of their other highest earning contracts will be expiring or they'll be moving on from them soon. Their OL is young, and they are already rebuilding the rest of their roster, especially on defense.

The key to the Vikings and every other franchise is finding a QB in the draft. If they do it, everything will work out. If they don't, they'll continue to be mediocre or bad until they do.
Click to expand...

Well if that last statement is true, and the QB is the key, why would you pay a boatload contract to a WR? I know they can "afford it now", but in this cap era you must prioritize. You have to be forward-thinking. If you don't, it will bite you later. Having more cap space and the flexibility that comes with it will help you more long-term than a star WR does in the short-term.

And since I must eventually have a franchise-level QB, and I currently do not have one, what good does a star WR do me right now?

JJ is a great receiver, but a great receiver is never at the top of any team's need list; especially if the team has no QB. Trade him for blue-chip draft picks, and sign some decent second-tier WRs to fill in while you search for the great, white whale that is a franchise QB. Use your new cap space and your freshly-drafted young talent pool to build a really impressive team for years to come. Become a dynasty. Other teams have done it.
 
Last edited:

GopherWeatherGuy said:
The NE/KC comparison's you're trying to make involved them having Tom Brady and Pat Mahomes at QB, possibly the two greatest QBs of all time. KC let Tyreek go after his second contract, and still have possibly the greatest TE of all time.

The Vikings can easily afford JJ because several of their other highest earning contracts will be expiring or they'll be moving on from them soon. Their OL is young, and they are already rebuilding the rest of their roster, especially on defense.

The key to the Vikings and every other franchise is finding a QB in the draft. If they do it, everything will work out. If they don't, they'll continue to be mediocre or bad until they do.
Click to expand...
Or they get lucky as hell with a relatively cheap Stafford guy.

I think we already had ours with Keenum.
 

Gophers_4life said:
"Still win"

"Winning" the division doesn't get you jack squat, other than tougher match-ups the next season. And one guaranteed home playoff game, which is nice for fans ... except when you lose.
Click to expand...
So you'd rather do what the Bears are doing? There's almost never a good excuse to not even try to win in the NFL. You can aim to maximize your window/salary cap in 2024-2026 and still try to win in 2023. It's not either/or in the NFL.
 



RememberMurray said:
If you pay JJ and keep him, and then draft a rookie QB, you will be left with a star receiver and a rookie, unproven QB and a roster around the two of them that is aging and on the downside of their careers in many key positions. You will have to address those positions eventually — sooner rather than later, I believe.

The team will need the draft picks that a trade of JJ will bring in. He'll never be worth more than he is right now. Let Cousins walk after 2023, and then trade JJ for a boatload of picks, I honestly believe they can fill many of the needs that they will soon face by trading just one guy. As your rebuilt roster comes of age, you'll probably be drafting pretty high for a year or two. That gives the team even more prime draft picks, to use themselves or as trade pieces.

If I'm wrong about how much JJ is worth, then why would you want to break the bank — and the salary cap — for him?

I like a modified version of the old NE Patriot model; get 'em young, then trade them when their rookie contract is up for a raft of new, fresh young talent/draft picks. Use the cap space you save to sign the right veterans at key positions for leadership and experience.
Click to expand...
Who is this roster full of aging veterans you're worried about? Thielen is gone. Kendricks is gone. Patrick Peterson is gone. Harrison and Cook will be gone by the 2024 season most likely. Same with Zadarius Smith.

They are not clinging to a bunch of aging veterans anymore and they will have cap room galore next year and beyond. All of which is why trading JJ is unnecessary. The core of the team is JJ, Hockenson, Darrisaw, O'Neil on offense. The defense we will see what emerges now that much of the over the hill gang is gone.
 


howeda7 said:
Who is this roster full of aging veterans you're worried about? Thielen is gone. Kendricks is gone. Patrick Peterson is gone. Harrison and Cook will be gone by the 2024 season most likely. Same with Zadarius Smith.

They are not clinging to a bunch of aging veterans anymore and they will have cap room galore next year and beyond. All of which is why trading JJ is unnecessary. The core of the team is JJ, Hockenson, Darrisaw, O'Neil on offense. The defense we will see what emerges now that much of the over the hill gang is gone.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but for my money your list of current "core" players is neither long enough nor impressive enough. Especially the "we will see" defense.

But if you are comfortable with it, then cool. I must say that as a poster you aren't nearly so positive and optimistic about the team (in general). If the Vikings decide to chart a course going forward that roughly parallels your roadmap, and as the results of implementation become apparent over the course of the next few seasons, I'll be anxious to read your posts going forward.
 

RememberMurray said:
Sorry, but for my money your list of current "core" players is neither long enough nor impressive enough. Especially the "we will see" defense.

But if you are comfortable with it, then cool. I must say that as a poster you aren't nearly so positive and optimistic about the team (in general). If the Vikings decide to chart a course going forward that roughly parallels your roadmap, and as the results of implementation become apparent over the course of the next few seasons, I'll be anxious to read your posts going forward.
Click to expand...
I think the offensive core is actually quite good with a very good offensive coach. The defense is not. But it can't really be much worse that it was last year.

They do need more draft picks. I am hopeful they will trade Cook and Z Smith before draft day for at least a mid-rounder or two.
 



Gophers_4life said:
Or they get lucky as hell with a relatively cheap Stafford guy.

I think we already had ours with Keenum.
Click to expand...

If the team got Cousins to sign a lowball contract to stay on for a year or two and be a bridge to the young QB we all assume they're going to pick this year or in the next draft, would Cousins be roughly parallel to Stafford?
 

Gophers_4life said:
"Still win"

"Winning" the division doesn't get you jack squat, other than tougher match-ups the next season. And one guaranteed home playoff game, which is nice for fans ... except when you lose.
Click to expand...
I think you are downplaying "winning" the division. The Bengals won their Division in 2021 at 10-7, had just 1 home playoff game yet went to the Super Bowl. Lost a competitive game to the Rams.

Had a tougher schedule in 2022, but went 12-4 and again had just 1 home playoff game. Made it to the AFC Championship and lost a competitive game to the eventual SB Winner (Chiefs).

"Just" winning the Division gets an invitation to the Tournament. Whether or not it's "jack squat" is based on what the team does with the opportunity. The Rams only had 1 guaranteed home playoff game a year ago, but went on the road and beat the Bucs. Because the Packers stumbled against the WC 49ers, LA got to host the NFC Championship.

You never know.

A rebuild on the fly for the Vikings is certainly plausible, and could result in an NFC North title. Anything can happen in a Best of 1 series. The Eagles got to play the 49ers down to their 4th string QB, and then back to their 3rd string QB in need of Tommy John surgery.
 

RememberMurray said:
Well if that last statement is true, and the QB is the key, why would you pay a boatload contract to a WR? I know they can "afford it now", but in this cap era you must prioritize. You have to be forward-thinking. If you don't, it will bite you later. Having more cap space and the flexibility that comes with it will help you more long-term than a star WR does in the short-term.

And since I must eventually have a franchise-level QB, and I currently do not have one, what good does a star WR do me right now?

JJ is a great receiver, but a great receiver is never at the top of any team's need list; especially if the team has no QB. Trade him for blue-chip draft picks, and sign some decent second-tier WRs to fill in while you search for the great, white whale that is a franchise QB. Use your new cap space and your freshly-drafted young talent pool to build a really impressive team for years to come. Become a dynasty. Other teams have done it.
Click to expand...

Because you need at least one great pass catcher too. The more talent you have around a young QB, the better the chances are of them succeeding.

Mahomes has always had Kelce and started with Hill too. Stafford won once he had Kupp. The Eagles traded for AJ Brown to pair with Hurts. Burrow has Chase and Higgins. Brady didn't start with great WRs but the game was also different 20 years ago. He had Gronk for a big chunk of his career, and had great WRs in Tampa Bay. His best season was also with Moss at WR, but they choked against the Giants in the Super Bowl.

If the Vikings draft the right QB, they can still sign JJ to a big deal now, and that deal would be close to its final year around the time they would need to sign the QB to a big, long term deal. That gives them time to eventually draft more WRs and they could move on from JJ at that point.

It is about prioritization and timing, and signing JJ works in the Vikings favor right now.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Because you need at least one great pass catcher too. The more talent you have around a young QB, the better the chances are of them succeeding.

Mahomes has always had Kelce and started with Hill too. Stafford won once he had Kupp. The Eagles traded for AJ Brown to pair with Hurts. Burrow has Chase and Higgins. Brady didn't start with great WRs but the game was also different 20 years ago. He had Gronk for a big chunk of his career, and had great WRs in Tampa Bay. His best season was also with Moss at WR, but they choked against the Giants in the Super Bowl.

If the Vikings draft the right QB, they can still sign JJ to a big deal now, and that deal would be close to its final year around the time they would need to sign the QB to a big, long term deal. That gives them time to eventually draft more WRs and they could move on from JJ at that point.

It is about prioritization and timing, and signing JJ works in the Vikings favor right now.
Click to expand...

Yes, I understand the argument and it is pretty logical. The only flaw in it, to me, is the Vikings miss an opportunity for a plethora of draft picks that they could possibly receive if they traded JJ.

But as I've said, I know I'm in the minority on this one in thinking they should trade JJ. And it seems pretty likely that the Vikings will keep and sign JJ, and it will eventually play out as you'd prefer.

I know I'm in the minority, too, in believing that you shouldn't over-value wide receivers when setting up your cap.

All that being said, Jefferson is special.
 

RememberMurray said:
Yes, I understand the argument and it is pretty logical. The only flaw in it, to me, is the Vikings miss an opportunity for a plethora of draft picks that they could possibly receive if they traded JJ.

But as I've said, I know I'm in the minority on this one in thinking they should trade JJ. And it seems pretty likely that the Vikings will keep and sign JJ, and it will eventually play out as you'd prefer.

I know I'm in the minority, too, in believing that you shouldn't over-value wide receivers when setting up your cap.

All that being said, Jefferson is special.
Click to expand...

I actually don't disagree with the thought that much, I just think JJ is worth it over the picks right now.
 

Our wide receivers are currently JJ, Osborn and nothing. We are already ridiculously thin at wide receiver.

Trade JJ, and you have literally nothing at wide receiver.

Holy Shit Balls
 

We traded Stefon Diggs away for a draft pick.

That draft pick turned out pretty well, as I recall.

Buffalo is paying Diggs the money he wanted, and in return the Vikings ended up with a guy named Justin Jefferson on a rookie contract — a contract that is still in force in 2023, and includes a team option in 2024.

Holy shit balls! That seems like a great deal to me.
 
Last edited:

RememberMurray said:
We traded Stefon Diggs away for a draft pick.

That draft pick turned out pretty well, as I recall.

Buffalo is paying Diggs the money he wanted, and in return the Vikings ended up with a guy named Justin Jefferson on a rookie contract — a contract that is still in force in 2023, and includes a team option in 2024.

Holy shit balls! That seems like a great deal to me.
Click to expand...
Oh ya, the odds of that happening again are great.

The Vikings also picked Jeff Gladney in the first round that year.

Yep, let's trade JJ and we'll just draft his clone again. It should be a piece of cake.

I'm in.
 


RememberMurray said:
We traded Stefon Diggs away for a draft pick.

That draft pick turned out pretty well, as I recall.

Buffalo is paying Diggs the money he wanted, and in return the Vikings ended up with a guy named Justin Jefferson on a rookie contract — a contract that is still in force in 2023, and includes a team option in 2024.

Holy shit balls! That seems like a great deal to me.
Click to expand...
Diggs is good, but not NFL Offensive Player of the Year good and likely HOF (barring injury).

How much value does Kelsey add to Mahomes? You can look at that angle as well, right?
 



JimmyJamesMD said:
But it's going to be JJ and an earth shattering contract
Click to expand...

If I'm the GM, when I hear my wide receiver talking about how he wants to be the highest-paid non-QB in the NFL, I start looking for a trade partner. For my money, the pecking order for biggest contracts is as follows: QBs, then blind-side offensive tackles, then stud pass rushers. Once we have those key positions in good hands, then maybe we'll talk, Mr. WR.

You build your team around those three positions first, and if you have any holes to fill in those three areas you fill those first, before you start handing out mega-deals to wide receivers. If you don't have your franchise QB yet, there's no reason you can't make do with two or three decent but not great wide receivers on low-hit contracts while you're looking for your QB; there are usually plenty of decent but not great WRs to go around. That way you have cap flexibility if an unexpected opportunity pops up at QB, left tackle, rusher. You can go draft or you can go trade for your Big Three; your options are open if you reserve cap space.

But like I said, that's just me. I know the video game-types disagree.
 
Last edited:


RememberMurray said:
The highest-paid non-QB in NFL history might not be technically "earth-shattering" but it would be unprecedented.

www.minnesotasportsfan.com

Justin Jefferson Seeking Largest Non-QB Contract in NFL History

Justin Jefferson is reportedly seeking the largest non-QB contract in NFL history. Here's what that will cost the Minnesota Vikings.
www.minnesotasportsfan.com www.minnesotasportsfan.com
Click to expand...

5 years 160 million, ~32 million per year seems about right. It's similar to what Cousin's cap hit was the last 2 years. Find a good QB on a rookie deal and I'm good with it.
 

RememberMurray said:
We traded Stefon Diggs away for a draft pick.

That draft pick turned out pretty well, as I recall.

Buffalo is paying Diggs the money he wanted, and in return the Vikings ended up with a guy named Justin Jefferson on a rookie contract — a contract that is still in force in 2023, and includes a team option in 2024.

Holy shit balls! That seems like a great deal to me.
Click to expand...
It was a good trade. It wasn't a "great" trade. It worked out for both teams. The Vikings netted a slightly better, cheaper WR but gave up a great one too.

But 1st round picks still have about a 50% bust rate. So even if we get 2 first round picks for him, odds are will get one good player who probably still won't be as good as JJ and one who flops. That's not a good trade. I would need three 1st round picks to make that trade, and I don't think anyone will do that.
 

howeda7 said:
It was a good trade. It wasn't a "great" trade. It worked out for both teams. The Vikings netted a slightly better, cheaper WR but gave up a great one too.

But 1st round picks still have about a 50% bust rate. So even if we get 2 first round picks for him, odds are will get one good player who probably still won't be as good as JJ and one who flops. That's not a good trade. I would need three 1st round picks to make that trade, and I don't think anyone will do that.
Click to expand...

Diggs was becoming a pain and the Vikings made lemonade of of Diggs' sour lemons. He wasn't happy here, and now there are rumblings that he's making unhappy sounds in Buffalo, too. JJ is younger, and he is a better play with more upside.

The Vikings saved cap money and headaches with that trade. Sometimes you have to be bold and make a move, and have faith in your own staff to run a top-notch draft.
 
Last edited:

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom