All Things 2023 Minnesota Vikings In-Season Thread

forever a gopher

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I get the sentiment, but I'm not sure I completely agree with how you see the state of things.

First, every team in the NFL has holes all over the roster. Every one of them.

The way Cousins was playing, you could make a compelling argument that the last 5 games they lost since he got injured, the Vikings would have won. Five games. Crappy teams, outside of the Lions. Would they have been good enough to damage in the playoffs? Probably not, but the conversation would be a lot different right now if they were 12-4.

The only thing "blowing it all up" guarantees is that you'll be bad for a little bit. You still have to draft really well, make good FA signings, and get lucky.

Don't get me wrong; I could live with that avenue if that's the way they wanted to go. But I can guarantee you nobody in the building wants to do that. Nobody. Not KOC, not KAM, not the Wilfs, and not the players.
The Vikes were 4-4 with Kirk, and that was with him playing out of his mind. At this point in his career, you know what you’re getting out of a player like Cousins. It’s unlikely he was going to play like that all season. To assume they would have rattled off 5 wins is a stretch at best.

I think the definition of “rebuild” can mean many things. Some people assume that means you intentionally tank and win 2 games to get the first overall pick. To me, all it means is shed all the dead weight and start as clean as you can. They should have cut Harrison Smith, traded Hunter when he had value. Don’t sign guys that aren’t elite to multi-year deals (looking at Oliver, Ham, Mattison, Bradbury). Instead of trying to kick the can down the road, take all your dead cap money hit in one year (as much as you can). It likely means one year you aren’t as competitive and have minimal chance at playoffs. I think if there is a plan, most fans will buy in with the hope of a big payoff.
 

Ogee Ogilthorpe

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The Vikes were 4-4 with Kirk, and that was with him playing out of his mind. At this point in his career, you know what you’re getting out of a player like Cousins. It’s unlikely he was going to play like that all season. To assume they would have rattled off 5 wins is a stretch at best.

I think the definition of “rebuild” can mean many things. Some people assume that means you intentionally tank and win 2 games to get the first overall pick. To me, all it means is shed all the dead weight and start as clean as you can. They should have cut Harrison Smith, traded Hunter when he had value. Don’t sign guys that aren’t elite to multi-year deals (looking at Oliver, Ham, Mattison, Bradbury). Instead of trying to kick the can down the road, take all your dead cap money hit in one year (as much as you can). It likely means one year you aren’t as competitive and have minimal chance at playoffs. I think if there is a plan, most fans will buy in with the hope of a big payoff.

Agreed. My understanding, unless it's changed (?), is that a lot of the moves that KAM made over the last 18 months or so moved the Vikings towards having a LOT more cap flexibility in 2024 and 2025. At least that's what I heard, I don't know if that's panned out that way. One site I looked at has the Vikings as having about the 12th most cap money to spend in 2024.

I'm not sure I would say Oliver, Ham, Mattison and Bradbury got very "elite" money for any of their positions.

I agree they should have cut bait with Harrison. Hunter is a tough one. Sucks to dole out all that money but at the same time, it's one of the hardest positions to find and/or groom in the NFL. At the end of the day, he's got more sacks than Myles Garrett or Maxx Crosby and Micah Parsons, just to name a few.

It'll be an interesting offseason, to say the least. Can't wait to see how it all shakes out
 

Gopher_In_NYC

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The Vikes were 4-4 with Kirk, and that was with him playing out of his mind. At this point in his career, you know what you’re getting out of a player like Cousins. It’s unlikely he was going to play like that all season. To assume they would have rattled off 5 wins is a stretch at best.

I think the definition of “rebuild” can mean many things. Some people assume that means you intentionally tank and win 2 games to get the first overall pick. To me, all it means is shed all the dead weight and start as clean as you can. They should have cut Harrison Smith, traded Hunter when he had value. Don’t sign guys that aren’t elite to multi-year deals (looking at Oliver, Ham, Mattison, Bradbury). Instead of trying to kick the can down the road, take all your dead cap money hit in one year (as much as you can). It likely means one year you aren’t as competitive and have minimal chance at playoffs. I think if there is a plan, most fans will buy in with the hope of a big payoff.
You’re HIRED!
 

Slim Tubby

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Agreed. My understanding, unless it's changed (?), is that a lot of the moves that KAM made over the last 18 months or so moved the Vikings towards having a LOT more cap flexibility in 2024 and 2025. At least that's what I heard, I don't know if that's panned out that way. One site I looked at has the Vikings as having about the 12th most cap money to spend in 2024.

I'm not sure I would say Oliver, Ham, Mattison and Bradbury got very "elite" money for any of their positions.

I agree they should have cut bait with Harrison. Hunter is a tough one. Sucks to dole out all that money but at the same time, it's one of the hardest positions to find and/or groom in the NFL. At the end of the day, he's got more sacks than Myles Garrett or Maxx Crosby and Micah Parsons, just to name a few.

It'll be an interesting offseason, to say the least. Can't wait to see how it all shakes out
In 2024, the Vikings have $50M in Dead salary (Cousins, Hunter and Davenport) and $36M in cap room based on an estimated $240M Cap. That doesn't include resigning JJ and Darrisaw.

If they part ways with Harrison, that creates another $12M in cap space once you factor in his $7M in Dead money. Outside of nailing the Addison pick, the last two (2) drafts have devastated this roster and made it devoid of high end talent on Rookie contracts.

DET is stacked with young talent. GB has a young QB surrounded by even younger talent at WR. CHI has the #1 Pick, another Top 10 pick, Fields as a trade chip for a desperate team in need of a QB like ATL along with at least $60M in cap space.

We could be in the basement of the NFC North for some time, especially if CHI hits on QB in the Draft. The reality of the situation is not a pleasant one.
 

kg21

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The middle of this offensive line is getting destroyed yet again. It just goes on and on and on and on. Green Bay has basically a new line again and it's better than ours.

If they bring Cousins back, they need to fix this, but are totally incapable of doing it.
 


howeda7

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I don't think "total rebuilds" are generally a thing in the NFL and if they are they take 2 years. They should draft a QB in round one. Resign Cousins if he will take $25 million or less and not demand more than 2 years guaranteed. If not, get a cheap fill in like Drew Lock or Gardner Minshew to hold it down until the rookie is ready.

They should move on from Harrison Smith and Hunter and Mattison and a few other vets. Beyond that, draft/sign the best players you can while managing the salary cap with the goal of maximum space for 2025/2026.
 

forever a gopher

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Agreed. My understanding, unless it's changed (?), is that a lot of the moves that KAM made over the last 18 months or so moved the Vikings towards having a LOT more cap flexibility in 2024 and 2025. At least that's what I heard, I don't know if that's panned out that way. One site I looked at has the Vikings as having about the 12th most cap money to spend in 2024.

I'm not sure I would say Oliver, Ham, Mattison and Bradbury got very "elite" money for any of their positions.

I agree they should have cut bait with Harrison. Hunter is a tough one. Sucks to dole out all that money but at the same time, it's one of the hardest positions to find and/or groom in the NFL. At the end of the day, he's got more sacks than Myles Garrett or Maxx Crosby and Micah Parsons, just to name a few.

It'll be an interesting offseason, to say the least. Can't wait to see how it all shakes out
To clarify, I’m not suggesting those guys got “elite” money. I’m merely saying to position yourself the best you can by limiting the number of multi-year contracts to guys that won’t move the needle in a major way on your team. Although Mattison isn’t getting a ton of money, you’re now saddled to his multi-year contract, thereby limiting your flexibility at that position. When you admit you’re rebuilding, one-year contracts are worth their weight in gold. But they refuse to “rebuild”, which limits their ability to escape the shadow that Spielman has built.

I’ve been a big Hunter fan, even when he was dealing with his injuries. But the shelf life of a great DE is only slightly longer than RBs. Somebody will offer Hunter a 3+ year contract out of desperation. Which means the Vikes have no business resigning him, so you may as well have gotten something for him.

I’ve mentioned this before, but spending $11.75MM this year on Oliver/Ham to block for the 27th ranked rushing attack is ridiculous.

Of course, this is a moot point if the drafting doesn’t improve.
 
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JimmyJamesMD

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Last season was fun, but a joke. They have no talent on D this year, just like last year. But their rabbit's foot worked last year. This is evident with DANIEL JONES destroying them at HOME in the playoffs.

Its not a good time to be a Vikings fan.

Middle of the line sucks. Why give Bradberry a contract?

DL - HORRIBLE. Interior line is awful. Last time they used a TOP 3 ROUND DL was Shariff Floyd in 2013! 2013!!!!!!! Before that it was Kevin Williams in 2003!!!!! Holy snikes. Talk about neglect.

LB's - trash. Pace looks decent because we have nobody else. Asmoua and Chaz Surratt were the only top 3 rounds LBs we've taken since 2015, when the Vikings took Kendricks in the 2nd round.

Secondary is awful. Harry is washed. Byron Murphy and Mattelus are the only 2 worth keeping out there.

Ultimately the Vikings have neglected defense so badly that they its going to take a few years to replenish. Couple that with Booth and Cine being busts.

Offense is legit, sans RB and Interior line. I know everyone likes Chandler, but he can't block.
They are solid at OT, and WR/TE. But I will say Addison is a good pick because Kwesi wanted to trade back. The right pick was Joey Porter Jr.

Ultimately, we have a giant gap in talent. And Im afraid of Kwesi making selections to improve their future
 

short ornery norwegian

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was looking at the dead cap money. If Cousins does NOT come back, that is $28.5-million in dead cap money for the 2024 season. when Cousins signed his deal for 2023, they put void years in the contract running through 2027.

at some point, they have to stop kicking the can down the road.

as 'forever' said, I'm in favor of biting the bullet in 2024. take the dead cap money, dump the non-performing or lower-performing veterans, and try to clear the decks for a course correction.

I would rather have one or two really painful years as opposed to the current approach of trying to slap a coat of paint over the rotten wood every year and trying to pretend that everything is fine.
 



JimmyJamesMD

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was looking at the dead cap money. If Cousins does NOT come back, that is $28.5-million in dead cap money for the 2024 season. when Cousins signed his deal for 2023, they put void years in the contract running through 2027.

at some point, they have to stop kicking the can down the road.

as 'forever' said, I'm in favor of biting the bullet in 2024. take the dead cap money, dump the non-performing or lower-performing veterans, and try to clear the decks for a course correction.

I would rather have one or two really painful years as opposed to the current approach of trying to slap a coat of paint over the rotten wood every year and trying to pretend that everything is fine.
I agree. I see no other choice. But as I said in my previous post, I am not confident in Kwesi to make the right picks for a rebuild
 

MplsGopher

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I was so sure we were going to win the Super Bowl
You ignored the point.

Where is the line in the sand that you change your tune to “OK, that season was worth it for the lower draft pick we’ll have because of our place” ??

Answer
 

MplsGopher

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I don't think "total rebuilds" are generally a thing in the NFL and if they are they take 2 years. They should draft a QB in round one. Resign Cousins if he will take $25 million or less and not demand more than 2 years guaranteed. If not, get a cheap fill in like Drew Lock or Gardner Minshew to hold it down until the rookie is ready.
How long did it take Ponder to get ready?

Kirk rightfully should laugh at your (purposeful) half-ass offer. He’s worth way more.

They should move on from Harrison Smith and Hunter and Mattison and a few other vets.
Hunter try to resign if it makes sense.

Darrisaw more important, although I don’t know what the hell happened twice against Green Bay #91?? Bitched him like he was a 7th grader. Is that guy an All Pro, doubt it. Maybe he is.

Other two for sure dump.
 

MplsGopher

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as 'forever' said, I'm in favor of biting the bullet in 2024. take the dead cap money, dump the non-performing or lower-performing veterans, and try to clear the decks for a course correction.
Nice of you to bet on poker hands using the Wilfs’ money, not your own

If they don’t want to lose nine figures of revenue on a trashed season, they have the right to decline your proposal.
 



MplsGopher

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It’s just tough to fathom how any NFL fan of any team can look at the Chiefs going 12-4, winning their division, and then drafting Mahomes that year …… but no, guys we gotta do a hard reset! Tank the season! Clear house!

Can’t make it up.


Detroit is doing it with a free agent QB that they didn’t draft, who isn’t any better than Cousins. Rams did the same with the guy Detroit did draft, also not any better than Cousins.
 

From the Parkinglot

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Right back on national tv. Of course if you are gonna cover for them as a league you can’t punish them. Basically the refs lied or Detroit lied and the league is only able to cover up for the refs.
 

MplsGopher

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Can’t punish them?? That crew is downgraded so they can’t work the playoffs …
 

kg21

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It’s just tough to fathom how any NFL fan of any team can look at the Chiefs going 12-4, winning their division, and then drafting Mahomes that year …… but no, guys we gotta do a hard reset! Tank the season! Clear house!

Can’t make it up.


Detroit is doing it with a free agent QB that they didn’t draft, who isn’t any better than Cousins. Rams did the same with the guy Detroit did draft, also not any better than Cousins.
If we get the 10th pick, let's just alert the team picking 22nd that we will just simply switch picks.

Where you pick means nothing, anyway!
 

From the Parkinglot

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Can’t punish them?? That crew is downgraded so they can’t work the playoffs …
But yet here they are working the national stand alone game on Saturday a week after their screw up. Why not put them at I don’t know noon for the jets vs patriots game?
 

From the Parkinglot

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This league is amazing. Our ref is a moron, but you should have known that so you should not have tried to “confuse” him. If only there was a microphone on say maybe the head referee that caught this conversation on it and it could simply be played to show Detroit lied about the whole thing. My guess it existed and shows the ref is a moron so the tape has been destroyed.
 

Ogee Ogilthorpe

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was looking at the dead cap money. If Cousins does NOT come back, that is $28.5-million in dead cap money for the 2024 season. when Cousins signed his deal for 2023, they put void years in the contract running through 2027.

at some point, they have to stop kicking the can down the road.

as 'forever' said, I'm in favor of biting the bullet in 2024.
take the dead cap money, dump the non-performing or lower-performing veterans, and try to clear the decks for a course correction.

I would rather have one or two really painful years as opposed to the current approach of trying to slap a coat of paint over the rotten wood every year and trying to pretend that everything is fine.

Again, from what I have been hearing, a lot of the moves they made in the last 18 months is to NOT kick the can down the road, take the hard hits early, and free up a lot more money for 2024 and 2025. For example, they ate all of the Thielen money this year instead of spreading it out. There were other similar moves.

In essence, they basically "bit the bullet" right here in 2023, knowing it would be a struggle and setting themselves up to have more money in the next two offseasons, particularly 2025 from what it sounds like. THIS was supposed to be our painful year, and it pretty much was.

I have no clue if this is 100% correct, just going off of what I've heard from a few sources that I listen to and in general they're smart folks, and not exactly major advocates for KAM and KOC.
 

JimmyJamesMD

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Again, from what I have been hearing, a lot of the moves they made in the last 18 months is to NOT kick the can down the road, take the hard hits early, and free up a lot more money for 2024 and 2025. For example, they ate all of the Thielen money this year instead of spreading it out. There were other similar moves.

In essence, they basically "bit the bullet" right here in 2023, knowing it would be a struggle and setting themselves up to have more money in the next two offseasons, particularly 2025 from what it sounds like. THIS was supposed to be our painful year, and it pretty much was.

I have no clue if this is 100% correct, just going off of what I've heard from a few sources that I listen to and in general they're smart folks, and not exactly major advocates for KAM and KOC.
Still need extensions for hunter, jj, darrisaw. Who knows how much cousins will cost. Signed tj. If all of that happens, not a lot of money for depth. Vikings bad drafting really hurts not having talent on cheap contracts to suppment those gigantic contracts
 

Gopher_In_NYC

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Still need extensions for hunter, jj, darrisaw. Who knows how much cousins will cost. Signed tj. If all of that happens, not a lot of money for depth. Vikings bad drafting really hurts not having talent on cheap contracts to suppment those gigantic contracts
I wouldn’t sign Hunter; signing 30+ players is cra cra, unless it’s a QB.
 

kg21

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I wouldn’t sign Hunter; signing 30+ players is cra cra, unless it’s a QB.
Well, if that's true, then you should have traded him for a low first or early second, which they would have gotten.

Nope, now he just walks.

Criminal and so Minnesota Sports

P.S..........sorry for the negativity!
 

Slim Tubby

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Well, if that's true, then you should have traded him for a low first or early second, which they would have gotten.

Nope, now he just walks.

Criminal and so Minnesota Sports

P.S..........sorry for the negativity!
I'm too lazy to go back and look but NYC might've been one of us promoting a trade of Hunter at the deadline knowing he can walk for nothing. It's a big mistake by the Vikings, especially if you could've gotten a 2-3 Round pick for him.
 

short ornery norwegian

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Again, from what I have been hearing, a lot of the moves they made in the last 18 months is to NOT kick the can down the road, take the hard hits early, and free up a lot more money for 2024 and 2025. For example, they ate all of the Thielen money this year instead of spreading it out. There were other similar moves.

In essence, they basically "bit the bullet" right here in 2023, knowing it would be a struggle and setting themselves up to have more money in the next two offseasons, particularly 2025 from what it sounds like. THIS was supposed to be our painful year, and it pretty much was.

I have no clue if this is 100% correct, just going off of what I've heard from a few sources that I listen to and in general they're smart folks, and not exactly major advocates for KAM and KOC.

I don't pretend to understand all of the NFL salary cap ramifications. I was just responding to the "dead cap" issue or question. from what I have read, the Vikes have a lot of potential dead cap money in 2024, depending on what they decide to do with players including Cousins, Hunter and others.

in my book, dead cap money and void years are 'kicking the can down the road," because you're making decisions that impact future seasons.

if it was up to me, there would be no dead cap money, void years, etc. the salary cap should be the salary cap. you get X $$$ to spend, and when it's spent, that's it - you're done. instead, the NFL lets teams play tricks with the cap. (.....we'll convert a signing bonus to a roster bonus and add a void year, and now you fit under the cap.....) it's like 3-card monty - if you shuffle the cards fast enough, no one can tell what you're doing.
 

Gopher_In_NYC

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Ogee Ogilthorpe

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Last season was fun, but a joke. They have no talent on D this year, just like last year. But their rabbit's foot worked last year. This is evident with DANIEL JONES destroying them at HOME in the playoffs.

Its not a good time to be a Vikings fan.

Middle of the line sucks. Why give Bradberry a contract?

DL - HORRIBLE. Interior line is awful. Last time they used a TOP 3 ROUND DL was Shariff Floyd in 2013! 2013!!!!!!! Before that it was Kevin Williams in 2003!!!!! Holy snikes. Talk about neglect.

LB's - trash. Pace looks decent because we have nobody else. Asmoua and Chaz Surratt were the only top 3 rounds LBs we've taken since 2015, when the Vikings took Kendricks in the 2nd round.

Secondary is awful. Harry is washed. Byron Murphy and Mattelus are the only 2 worth keeping out there.

Ultimately the Vikings have neglected defense so badly that they its going to take a few years to replenish. Couple that with Booth and Cine being busts.

Offense is legit, sans RB and Interior line. I know everyone likes Chandler, but he can't block.
They are solid at OT, and WR/TE. But I will say Addison is a good pick because Kwesi wanted to trade back. The right pick was Joey Porter Jr.

Ultimately, we have a giant gap in talent. And Im afraid of Kwesi making selections to improve their future

The DL is a major concern. No doubt about it. They will have to address this in a big way

LB isn't that terrible, they generally seem to just play 2 and Pace looks really good (he'll get better, only a rookie) and I could be wrong but Asamoah actually isn't too bad, but he's largely been blocked by either Pace or Hicks.

The secondary could be a lot worse. At least they have some players and some depth, albeit maybe not GREAT depth. Adding one player either via draft and/or Free Agency, and at least ONE of Cine and/or Booth taking a step forward and they won't look as bad at all. Blackmon looks good for a rookie

As far as Porter Jr, I like him a lot, major character guy, but he's one grabby mo-fo if I recall; I thought he was leading the league in PI calls by a mile, but I could be mistaken?
 

Gopher_In_NYC

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I'm too lazy to go back and look but NYC might've been one of us promoting a trade of Hunter at the deadline knowing he can walk for nothing. It's a big mistake by the Vikings, especially if you could've gotten a 2-3 Round pick for him.
I wasn’t involved in that discussion, but my Douglas County math, tells me thst was the right move, especially with Kirk on the shelf - if he was healthy, I could understand then not trading Hunter.
 

Ogee Ogilthorpe

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I'm too lazy to go back and look but NYC might've been one of us promoting a trade of Hunter at the deadline knowing he can walk for nothing. It's a big mistake by the Vikings, especially if you could've gotten a 2-3 Round pick for him.

I think they can get something like that for letting him walk in FA? I think you get some pretty hefty draft compensation for letting a guy like Hunter walk, depending on the size of the contract he signs
 

Slim Tubby

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I think they can get something like that for letting him walk in FA? I think you get some pretty hefty draft compensation for letting a guy like Hunter walk, depending on the size of the contract he signs
I forgot about that. I don't know the requirements but Compensatory picks can be as high as the end of the 3rd Round. That would help because we traded ours to DET.
 




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